Advice (about relief options)

[nsxguy]

11 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

He or she is "trained" to press the mic button. 

 

Well, OK then.

 

Same question to the person on the other end of the mic.

[antip]

38 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

"would seem like an attempt" says to me that you're not sure.

 

Is an official, when unsure and deciding among 2 such possibilities, trained to take the "guilty" avenue ?

No. There is no general answer, call it as you see it (that's why we get the big bucks - perhaps a drink, perhaps a sandwich), consult with others wherever appropriate in the interests of fairness. 

[sui generis]

19 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, OK then.

 

Same question to the person on the other end of the mic.

 

"Have 'em play on," says the TD, "we'll figure this out in the scoring tent."

 

In a quiet spot everyone will have a chance to tell their story. This stuff happens all the time. Nobody is spring loaded to find anyone in breach of a Rule.

[nsxguy]

39 minutes ago, antip said:

No. There is no general answer, call it as you see it (that's why we get the big bucks - perhaps a drink, perhaps a sandwich), consult with others wherever appropriate in the interests of fairness. 

 

35 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

"Have 'em play on," says the TD, "we'll figure this out in the scoring tent."

 

In a quiet spot everyone will have a chance to tell their story. This stuff happens all the time. Nobody is spring loaded to find anyone in breach of a Rule.

 

Fair enough.

 

Thanks. 👍

[rogolf]

I had one last week at a Men's Amateur Championship.  We received a call on the radio for a second opinion for a ball moved.  Certainly a strange and unusual call for a second opinion.  Arrived and the first referee gave me their information (also unusual as the second opinion should be unbiased).  Player's ball was in the rough amongst trees with lots of dead leaves and twigs.  First opinion was that the referee had seen the ball move as the player moved into the area of the ball (no club in hand yet).  I asked the player his version.  He said he was on his way in from the side to assess what he might do.  A dead leaf then blew onto the ball, but the ball didn't move.  He felt that the leaf movement may have made it look to others, in different positions, like the ball had moved.  The player was much closer to the ball than others.  Asked him to explain again (which is always useful as new/different info often appears) and he reported the same.

Ended up that I concluded the ball had not moved but may have appeared to have, and changed the initial referee's ruling.

Uncomfortable, but our job is to "get it right".

[antip]

38 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I had one last week at a Men's Amateur Championship.  We received a call on the radio for a second opinion for a ball moved.  Certainly a strange and unusual call for a second opinion.  Arrived and the first referee gave me their information (also unusual as the second opinion should be unbiased).  Player's ball was in the rough amongst trees with lots of dead leaves and twigs.  First opinion was that the referee had seen the ball move as the player moved into the area of the ball (no club in hand yet).  I asked the player his version.  He said he was on his way in from the side to assess what he might do.  A dead leaf then blew onto the ball, but the ball didn't move.  He felt that the leaf movement may have made it look to others, in different positions, like the ball had moved.  The player was much closer to the ball than others.  Asked him to explain again (which is always useful as new/different info often appears) and he reported the same.

Ended up that I concluded the ball had not moved but may have appeared to have, and changed the initial referee's ruling.

Uncomfortable, but our job is to "get it right".

Good call. On that info, even if it was felt the ball moved, it doesn't appear to be KVC the cause was the player.

[wadesworld]

On 8/2/2022 at 7:04 PM, Augster said:

Situations like this are why I continually lobby the USGA to do away with the restrictions on advice. Make advice allowable, from any source, always. I’m hoping they change it in the new Rules next year. I’m not holding my breath though. 
 

Relief options “should” always be given like in scenario 1. Just lay them out without influencing. When they aren’t, like scenario 2, we get into a bunch of gray area which is completely unnecessary. 
 

Just allow all advice. Players still have to hit the shots. 

 

 

 

While I generally agree, it would open up the situation of a player purposely giving bad advice.  Then we would have to decide if the shot was ruined because of poor execution or the innocent following of malicious advice and whether the advice-giver should be penalized for violating the spirit of the game, no?

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, wadesworld said:

 

While I generally agree, it would open up the situation of a player purposely giving bad advice.  Then we would have to decide if the shot was ruined because of poor execution or the innocent following of malicious advice and whether the advice-giver should be penalized for violating the spirit of the game, no?

 

 

 

First, players are supposed to know the Rules. So if you do not know and ask another player you risk getting wrong information. That is why it is essential to know the Rules. Also if is safer to ask a referee as their incorrect ruling may still be corrected if necessary.

 

Second, if a player deliberately gives incorrect information on the Rules s/he is in breach of Rule 1.2a and will get a penalty up to disqualification.

[Halebopp]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

"would seem like an attempt" says to me that you're not sure.

 

Is an official, when unsure and deciding among 2 such possibilities, trained to take the "guilty" avenue ?

 

We as human beings can't know what others think, therefore we can only only interpret what we can sense, hence the use of the word "seem". Needless to say, in a real situation, a referee would check with the players what actually happened, what did they say etc. It's not necessarily about not knowing what to do when you have all the facts, it's about not having precise information on what actually happened when you first observe something happening.

[Augster]

9 hours ago, wadesworld said:

 

While I generally agree, it would open up the situation of a player purposely giving bad advice.  Then we would have to decide if the shot was ruined because of poor execution or the innocent following of malicious advice and whether the advice-giver should be penalized for violating the spirit of the game, no?

 

 

If a player asks an opponent, “What did you hit there?” And the opponent says 5 when he really hit a 7, so the player takes a 5 and flies the green, the player deserves what he gets. 
 

Asking an opponent for advice is a fools errand. 
 

Applied to Rules advice, like where to drop, I can’t come up with a reason a player couldn’t suggest what they’d do in the same situation their opponent is in. If the player was lying about what they’d do, that’s just fine. As folks above had said, the player is supposed to know the rules and know all his options. 
 

Advice on the course should be able to be given, and asked for, by anyone. The player still has to make decisions and take the shots. The restrictions on advice is antiquated and unnecessarily penal IMO. 

[sui generis]

4 hours ago, Augster said:

The restrictions on advice is antiquated and unnecessarily penal IMO. 

 

You've got the wrong end of this stick . . . by a country mile. 😜

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

If a player asks an opponent, “What did you hit there?” And the opponent says 5 when he really hit a 7, so the player takes a 5 and flies the green, the player deserves what he gets. 
 

Asking an opponent for advice is a fools errand. 

 

Maybe you should read the Rules about Match Play once (or twice) again. information of strokes taken is not an advice and giving wrong information is loss of hole (R3.2d)

[nsxguy]

11 hours ago, Augster said:

If a player asks an opponent, “What did you hit there?” And the opponent says 5 when he really hit a 7, so the player takes a 5 and flies the green, the player deserves what he gets.

 

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Maybe you should read the Rules about Match Play once (or twice) again. information of strokes taken is not an advice and giving wrong information is loss of hole (R3.2d)

 

Maybe you should read his post again. 

[QEight]

Why was B so late in "advicing", was that perhaps he was away or waited for the referee to solve issue.

 

I would think the best way for the player B to intervene might have been just asking A if he is aware of all the three relief options he has. Not suggesting anything, just asking. And at the same time make referee think hopefully a bit more.