Hybrid launching too low off turf

[Shields93]

Looking for some advise on hybrids / hybrid shafts.

 

Currently gaming a TS2 21 degree hybrid with a T1100 6.0 shaft. Carry is around 215-220, which fits my gapping nicely between 4 iron and 3 wood. The club works great off the tee, I guess where my AoA is more neutral, possible even slightly positive. However, off the fairway and out of rough it launches too low for my liking.  I'm not talking worm-burners low, but low enough where I don't really trust hitting it into a green. Everything else in the bag I hit a highish fade or reasonable straight shot, with the hybrid its a flatter trajectory straighter shot. I've also experienced a few flyers with this club out of rough, where I've carried it 240+, not something I want to be doing when trying to hit a green.

 

I really like the feel and stoutness of the T1100 shaft in the hybrid. I understand the T1100 shaft is considered a low/low shaft, so wondering if moving to higher launching and spinning shaft may help. However I don't really like tip soft shafts, which as far as I'm aware, is the sort of profile that will give me the higher launch and spin I'm looking. 

 

So are there any shaft recommendations that may increase my launch and spin whilst still feeling relatively stout? or should I scrap the hybrid and buy a 7 wood like it seems everyone else is doing 😛 

 

Also, I'm a lefty and there isn't really anywhere for me to get fit where I live so please don't suggest that. I enjoy buying, trying and selling shafts, so I have a bit of an understanding of what I like. At my swing speed I probably sit between S and X flex. I don't know speed exactly but for reference I carry driver around 260-270, 3 wood around 240-250. Currently gaming D Plus 60S in driver, Fuji Pro 2.0 TS 7x in 3 wood, S Taper 120 in irons.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Shields93

[bsb70x7]

I have the same problem.  Either switch to 7 wood or go with a higher launch shaft (Atmos Red, Ventus Red, Tensie Blue or Red).  There are other good ones too. 

[jholz]

I hate to say it, but this seems like a user error thing to me. No shaft or equipment change will solve it.

 

Hybrids are made to launch high. If you are not getting high launch, it's because you are not hitting them correctly.

 

The thing that gives it away is when you say:

 

"The club works great off the tee, I guess where my AoA is more neutral, possible even slightly positive."

 

I don't care where you are hitting a hybrid, your AOA should never be neutral or up.

 

It needs to be down. Just like an iron. Let the club and the loft do the work. You don't have to help it.

 

To achieve better strike conditions, move the ball to a neutral "center point" in your stance and hit it like a 7 iron. The club will launch the ball high. That's what they do.

[Shields93]

2 minutes ago, jholz said:

I hate to say it, but this seems like a user error thing to me. No shaft or equipment change will solve it.

 

Hybrids are made to launch high. If you are not getting high launch, it's because you are not hitting them correctly.

 

The thing that gives it away is when you say:

 

"The club works great off the tee, I guess where my AoA is more neutral, possible even slightly positive."

 

I don't care where you are hitting a hybrid, your AOA should never be neutral or up.

 

It needs to be down. Just like an iron. Let the club and the loft do the work. You don't have to help it.

 

To achieve better strike conditions, move the ball to a neutral "center point" in your stance and hit it like a 7 iron. The club will launch the ball high. That's what they do.

Thanks for the advice. I am naturally a shallow swinger, I don't take much of a divot with irons and wedges, but I do not have a problem launching or spinning any other club apart from the hybrid. I have tried playing the ball further back in the stance but I find I then hang back and don't get through the ball, resulting in blocks. I know this is user error but I don't have endless time to rectify it. The swing I have seems to launch and spin every club apart from the hybrid.

 

I get how playing the ball further up in the stance results in a more neutral AoA, but surely this should yield a higher ball flight as I am presenting more loft? just with less spin compared to hitting down on it. Always happy to be told otherwise.

[jholz]

3 minutes ago, Shields93 said:

Thanks for the advice. I am naturally a shallow swinger, I don't take much of a divot with irons and wedges, but I do not have a problem launching or spinning any other club apart from the hybrid. I have tried playing the ball further back in the stance but I find I then hang back and don't get through the ball, resulting in blocks. I know this is user error but I don't have endless time to rectify it. The swing I have seems to launch and spin every club apart from the hybrid.

 

I get how playing the ball further up in the stance results in a more neutral AoA, but surely this should yield a higher ball flight as I am presenting more loft? just with less spin compared to hitting down on it. Always happy to be told otherwise.

 

Interesting. I'm a shallow swinger myself. But, I struggled with the hook/pull-hook tendency of hybrids. Those shots also tended to be low.

 

So, if your miss moving back in the stance is a block right, I feel like there is hope

 

But, I think there's just a basic misunderstanding about what makes the ball flight high and stop on a dime. That kind of performance is always going to be a combination of trajectory and spin. High trajectory, yes. But, lots of spin too.

 

If you are moving the ball up in your stance and trying to present more loft, it may help to get the ball up, but you are losing spin at the same time. You are also losing power and distance.

 

Spin, if done properly, will help to keep the ball in the air, even help it rise, and then come down with the ability to stop short.

 

A neutral or positive AoA is never going to give you the launch and spin conditions you need to get the performance that you are looking for - in my opinion. That "stop and drop" shot from 215 is a tough one to pull off. I might be able to do it in perfect conditions one out of five times from that distance.

 

Even for me, who according to my own distorted perception, hits hybrids well - I'm not expecting "drop and stop" performance from 215. That shot, from that distance, is always going to roll out. So, I play for that roll out.

 

So, this might be a matter of unrealistic expectations, or a matter of just needing to do some more work to ensure you are hitting the ball correctly.

 

Honestly, I've played with a lot of guys who'd take a consistently straight, low, 30 yard run-out hybrid shot any day of the week.

 

 

[Billfitz]

42 minutes ago, jholz said:

I don't care where you are hitting a hybrid, your AOA should never be neutral or up.

I hit my hybrids off the deck with a sweep swing, so AOA is neutral, and they get up just fine. The only time I don't get them up is when I hit them thin. The ball is forward in my stance, so I do have to take care that I don't have a positive AOA, which contributes to a thin hit. But even when I hit them thin they tend to go at least 90% of their normal distance, takeing out a dozen worms along the way, whereas when I hit fairway woods thin they went nowhere. That's why I replaced my FWs with hybrids. I seldom use a hybrid as an approach club, as there aren't any greens I can't reach with at the most my 5 iron on approach, while I can't quite reach the par 5s with the second shot even with my 2H. But they're very consistent for me off the tee on long par 3s. It seems your swing with them is similar to mine, so I suspect your low hits are thin hits as well. To minimize that possibility I keep my swing plane as flat as possible, to the extent that I drag the head on the ground for the first six inches or so of the backswing.

[grochol17]

1 hour ago, Shields93 said:

I've also experienced a few flyers with this club out of rough, where I've carried it 240+, not something I want to be doing when trying to hit a green.

 

I'm going to be "that guy" and point out that rough causes fliers when you get a little bit of grass between the face and the ball.  The hybrid is not the problem.  Rough is just something you have to deal with and try to guess correctly about how the ball is going to come out.  To me, that is the point of rough... you're never 100% sure what kind of contact you're going to make, so that's the penalty for missing the fairway. 

[Shields93]

8 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

Interesting. I'm a shallow swinger myself. But, I struggled with the hook/pull-hook tendency of hybrids. Those shots also tended to be low.

 

So, if your miss moving back in the stance is a block right, I feel like there is hope

 

But, I think there's just a basic misunderstanding about what makes the ball flight high and stop on a dime. That kind of performance is always going to be a combination of trajectory and spin. High trajectory, yes. But, lots of spin too.

 

If you are moving the ball up in your stance and trying to present more loft, it may help to get the ball up, but you are losing spin at the same time. You are also losing power and distance.

 

Spin, if done properly, will help to keep the ball in the air, even help it rise, and then come down with the ability to stop short.

 

A neutral or positive AoA is never going to give you the launch and spin conditions you need to get the performance that you are looking for - in my opinion. That "stop and drop" shot from 215 is a tough one to pull off. I might be able to do it in perfect conditions one out of five times from that distance.

 

Even for me, who according to my own distorted perception, hits hybrids well - I'm not expecting "drop and stop" performance from 215. That shot, from that distance, is always going to roll out. So, I play for that roll out.

 

So, this might be a matter of unrealistic expectations, or a matter of just needing to do some more work to ensure you are hitting the ball correctly.

 

Honestly, I've played with a lot of guys who'd take a consistently straight, low, 30 yard run-out hybrid shot any day of the week.

 

 

Again thanks for the reply, and thanks for the explanation. 

 

I have never really been a drawer of the ball, so I have never really experience the hook / pull hook problem with the hybrid. My bad miss with all clubs is a straight pull from getting too quick in transition and coming over the top.

 

I will give it another go moving the ball back in the stance and trying to produce more of an iron swing.

 

I am not expecting drop and stop from a hybrid, but 30 odd yards of rollout seems excessive and too unpredictable. I would just like to see a flight that is more inline with what I'm used to seeing from 4 iron and 3 wood. Surely a hybrid shouldn't be lower launching and spinning than a 3 wood.

[Shields93]

2 minutes ago, grochol17 said:

 

I'm going to be "that guy" and point out that rough causes fliers when you get a little bit of grass between the face and the ball.  The hybrid is not the problem.  Rough is just something you have to deal with and try to guess correctly about how the ball is going to come out.  To me, that is the point of rough... you're never 100% sure what kind of contact you're going to make, so that's the penalty for missing the fairway. 

Haa it's ok to be "that guy" but don't worry I understand how fliers and rough work. It just seems that with the hybrid I experience fliers more often than with my other clubs, as I guess the hybrid is already low spinning, so add rough to the equation and I easily get flyers. My hope is if I can add some launch and spin to this spot in the bag then I can control the ball easier out of fairway and rough. I was hoping the easiest way to achieve this may be with a shaft change. If not then I may need to adjust swing / setup with the hybrid as jholz suggested. Failing this I will try out a 7 wood in this spot.

[jholz]

22 minutes ago, Shields93 said:

Again thanks for the reply, and thanks for the explanation. 

 

I have never really been a drawer of the ball, so I have never really experience the hook / pull hook problem with the hybrid. My bad miss with all clubs is a straight pull from getting too quick in transition and coming over the top.

 

I will give it another go moving the ball back in the stance and trying to produce more of an iron swing.

 

I am not expecting drop and stop from a hybrid, but 30 odd yards of rollout seems excessive and too unpredictable. I would just like to see a flight that is more inline with what I'm used to seeing from 4 iron and 3 wood. Surely a hybrid shouldn't be lower launching and spinning than a 3 wood.

 

Yeah, man. I mean, it's golf. There's any number of things that could be going on. I'm no pro and having never seen your swing, I'm totally grasping at straws from my own experience. Your experience may be highly different.

 

The other thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of ways to get around the golf course. Not everyone needs to pursue a technically perfect swing to play decent golf. For the vast majority of us, it's always going to be a matter of making the most out of what we have. 

 

To my mind, a 215 "stop an drop" hybrid shot is only something that a highly, highly skilled golfer is going to achieve regularly.

 

If you want to be a highly, highly skilled golfer - then you've got to have a fundamentally solid swing and approach to hitting the ball.

 

If that's the road you want to take - I'm fully in support of it.

 

But, if you want to simply make the most of what you have right now, I may not be the best person to provide advice.

 

I certainly hope that my comments are helpful and not harmful to you endeavor!

Edited August 5, 2022 by jholz

[Shields93]

5 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

Yeah, man. I mean, it's golf. There's any number of things that could be going on. I'm no pro and having never seen your swing, I'm totally grasping at straws from my own experience. Your experience may be highly different.

 

The other thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of ways to get around the golf course. Not everyone needs to pursue a technically perfect swing to play decent golf. For the vast majority of us, it's always going to be a matter of making the most out of what we have. 

 

To my mind, a 215 "stop an drop" hybrid shot is only something that a highly, highly skilled golfer is going to achieve regularly.

 

If you want to be a highly, highly skilled golfer - then you've got to have a fundamentally solid swing and approach to hitting the ball.

 

If that's the road you want to take - I'm fully in support of it.

 

But, if you want to simply make the most of what you have right now, I may not be the best person to provide advice.

 

I certainly hope that my comments are helpful and not harmful to you endeavor!

Not harmful in the slightest mate.

 

I play maybe 3-4 times a month and don't really practice so by no means am I ever going to be a highly skilled player with a fundamentally solid swing. I am simple looking for a higher launching and spinning club for this spot in the bag. I hit the hybrid well so was hoping to achieve this simply with a shaft change (I know the shaft will not drastically change things but a few degrees launch and a few more hundred rpms would be nice). If this is wishful thinking then as I mentioned I may try a 7 wood instead.

[Peanut191]

What hybrid head are you using?  Generally, a shaft won’t change launch and spin enough to make a huge difference, unless it’s a completely different in profile or flex.  Usually shaft changes are for fine tuning.  You could look into going with the next higher loft in the same model as your current hybrid head, possibly even play it with the shaft in the same length as your current hybrid (which would be longer  in length, possibly making you lose less distance due to the loft of the head being higher).  If that’s a no go, you could look for a completely different hybrid head, with cg placed further back to get higher launch and spin.  You could probably toy with different lofts on the other models as well.  It could be a head in the same loft that launches and spins higher due to the cg, or it could vary a a couple of degrees higher loft to get closer to what you are looking for.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Peanut191

[Shields93]

44 minutes ago, Peanut191 said:

What hybrid head are you using?  Generally, a shaft won’t change launch and spin enough to make a huge difference, unless it’s a completely different in profile or flex.  Usually shaft changes are for fine tuning.  You could look into going with the next higher loft in the same model as your current hybrid head, possibly even play it with the shaft in the same length as your current hybrid (which would be longer  in length, possibly making you lose less distance due to the loft of the head being higher).  If that’s a no go, you could look for a completely different hybrid head, with cg placed further back to get higher launch and spin.  You could probably toy with different lofts on the other models as well.  It could be a head in the same loft that launches and spins higher due to the cg, or it could vary a a couple of degrees higher loft to get closer to what you are looking for.

As stated in OP its a 21 degree Titleist TS2. It fits the gap in my bag and I hit it well, but would just like a bit more height and spin.

[Cwebb]

27 minutes ago, Shields93 said:

As stated in OP its a 21 degree Titleist TS2. It fits the gap in my bag and I hit it well, but would just like a bit more height and spin.

 

What is the face height on that head design?  As a sweeper, you would likely get best results from shallower faced fairway clubs

[Ilovegolfihategolf]

This video fixed my swing. 

 

[Ilovegolfihategolf]

I carry a 4 wood and a 7 wood gapped to a 4 hybrid. 7 woods for sure will give you that effortless height, but you should still work on the swing to make proper contact and get that height with the hybrids. I found I was rushing my follow through and it was causing my to run out of room and thin or fat a s***. You should watch this danny Maude, he’ll put the entire swing in perspective

Edited August 5, 2022 by Ilovegolfihategolf

[Shields93]

36 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

What is the face height on that head design?  As a sweeper, you would likely get best results from shallower faced fairway clubs

Can't say I have much to compare it too unfortunately. I have always hit woods pretty well for my ability, My 3 wood is my main tee club, but I am also comfortable hitting it off the fairway. The courses I mainly play are shorter parkland courses where missing the fairway/first cut means your in woods most the time and chopping out. 

[Cwebb]

Just now, Shields93 said:

Can't say I have much to compare it too unfortunately. I have always hit woods pretty well for my ability, My 3 wood is my main tee club, but I am also comfortable hitting it off the fairway. The courses I mainly play are shorter parkland courses where missing the fairway/first cut means your in woods most the time and chopping out. 

Measure the face heights of both your 3 wood and your hybrid for a comparison.  Check them from the bottom of the rounded leading edge to the top-line

[Shields93]

6 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

Measure the face heights of both your 3 wood and your hybrid for a comparison.  Check them from the bottom of the rounded leading edge to the top-line

Just measure and both are pretty similar with the 3 wood being a few mil taller. 3 wood is a Mizuno STZ, would say its pretty neutral, not a deep or shallow faced fairway.

[Cwebb]

1 hour ago, Shields93 said:

Just measure and both are pretty similar with the 3 wood being a few mil taller. 3 wood is a Mizuno STZ, would say its pretty neutral, not a deep or shallow faced fairway.

 

 Sounds like it's probably down to the shaft then

[hammergolf]

Just adjust the setting to increase loft. The A4 or B4 setting will add 2* of loft that will increase your launch and spin.

Edited August 6, 2022 by hammergolf

[Billfitz]

5 hours ago, Ilovegolfihategolf said:

This video fixed my swing. 

 

That's not much different from what Ben Hogan did over 60 years ago. https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=486808489347376

 

I bet Young Tom Morris had a similar move.

[SleepingUte]

I have found that adjust loft down may actually increase launch by hitting higher up on the face with less spin. Adjusting loft too high effectively adds bounce and I’m more prone to hit thin shots. Sounds counter intuitive, but off tight fairways and/or hard pan it’s been the case for me.

[Jeff58]

Just my experience-

 

When you have a club that “just isn’t working” when the rest of your set is performing normally, there are a few things you can do.

 

1. Try to figure out why it’s not working and correct it (what you’re doing now). The problem with this approach is that you have no idea of the cause, and any changes you make to the club or your swing are random, which is bad in many ways.

 

2. Assume that the club just needs time for you to adjust to it. For whatever reason, this club’s swing dynamic requirements are different than the rest/majority of your set. The more you practice and adjust to the new club, the worse you will match your current clubs. As TrueSpec for instance would tell you, mismatched clubs are a demand for inconsistency in actual play.

 

3. Get rid of it immediately. The correct answer.

[FirePro]

sounds like low contact.  could try moving the ball back in your stance to be more down into the ball which would allow you to hit the ball higher off the face which should launch higher.  

 

just an assumption based off of what you have written 

[GolfTurkey]

1 hour ago, FirePro said:

sounds like low contact.  could try moving the ball back in your stance to be more down into the ball which would allow you to hit the ball higher off the face which should launch higher.  

 

just an assumption based off of what you have written 

Almost certain it’s that. Swing speed to carry driver 260-270 shouldn’t get 30 yards of roll out on a 21 degree TS2 hybrid if contact isn’t right at the bottom.

 

 Could try foot spray to verify and get on a LM to check angle of attack (might be too shallow / up)

[bnperrone]

There’s a decent number of hard truthful statements in the comments here, but I’ve also gotta say that the T1100 is a weird shaft. I’ve had it in driver, FW wood, hybrids, and it is just odd. One swing will produce my best result and the next will produce my worst and yet I’d have zero understanding of WHY. It’s that love/hate thing that confuses you and makes you think it’s the right shaft if only you’d get used to it, but then you do a fitting against it and realize that you’ve got totally repeatable results with something else. 
 

If you’re normally a higher hitter like you say and you’re launching TS2 heads low I’m gonna say try something else shaft-wise. I’m not convinced on all the user-error comments. Fitting is best of course, but an Evenflow Black in same weight and flex is a step toward a more “normal” and predictable profile. For me that is the shaft that retains 95% of the bomb performance but eliminates all of the inexplicable bad results. 

[Shields93]

Thanks for all the comments, much appreciated. I will play with set-up, moving the ball back slightly, but maybe I need to try a different shaft as well. At least then if the problem continues I know its either user error or just not the club for me.

 

So does anyone have shaft recommendations that may launch a little higher but isn't too soft in the tip?

 

I am curious to try out the Tour AD DI in it, seems this is more of a mid lauch/mid spin shaft, and looking at the specs it may have a similar feel to my Fuji pro 2.0 TS I have in the 3 wood, softer handle and stiffer mid and tip section.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Shields93

[Billfitz]

Higher launching shafts aren't soft in the tip, they're stiff. Look up your existing shaft to see how it's rated for launch, then look at others rated for higher than it. IME lighter weight and softer flex also contribute to higher launch.

 

As for the ball position, that doesn't affect my launch angle. Further back does promote a fade, further up a draw, but that's with my swing. Where negative AOA is concerned in general that's not what hybrids want. Most are intended to be used with a sweep swing like a fairway wood while giving accuracy closer to that of an iron. To that end many of them have glide rails on the soles, to minimize drag while the head is swept across the turf. With a steep swing those rails won't touch the turf until the ball is long gone.

[guty17]

I would play a bit with the adaptor on the range to find best setting, then moved to other options.