Another shaft broke. Did they use too much epoxy?

[Trippels]

My brand new ventus black 7tx broke today, only been used for about 2 weeks. 

 

Not a club maker, but seems to me that they've used too much epoxy. That's what the yellow stuff in the tip you see in the picture is right?

Could this have something to do with it?

 

Haven't hit the ground at all with the club. Just normal use. 

[naj959]

100% I had an iron shaft break for the same reason. Was told the excess epoxy creates a weak spot in the shaft when force is applied. I'd be trying to get some type of refund from your builder and would be hesitant to use them again. 

[capking]

There was a thread with a bunch of Ventus shafts breaking might be worth searching as I believe the manufacturer responded in the thread

[Billfitz]

When I shaft I partially fill the hosel or adapter with epoxy, which will then fill the end of the shaft, although not beyond the top of the hosel or the end of the adapter. I've never had a shaft break in 30 years. That's more epoxy than I'd use, but if anything it should make that section of the shaft stronger, not weaker. But that doesn't look like epoxy.

[Ger21]

7 minutes ago, Billfitz said:

But that doesn't look like epoxy.

Looks exactly like epoxy to me.

[Billfitz]

Maybe it's just the quality of the picture, but it looks to be porous, like foam.

[Trippels]

7 minutes ago, Billfitz said:

Maybe it's just the quality of the picture, but it looks to be porous, like foam.

Just the picture. Not porous

[mogc60]

Does seem like overkill on the epoxy to fill the shaft tip that far but I don’t think that caused the break. Seems like an unfortunate issue with the shaft. They can all break for a various number of reasons. Very hard to pin point exactly what caused it to break

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Trippels said:

Not a club maker, but seems to me that they've used too much epoxy. That's what the yellow stuff in the tip you see in the picture is right?

Could this have something to do with it?

 

Sorry, no.

 

1 hour ago, Trippels said:

Haven't hit the ground at all with the club. Just normal use. 

 

More likely from one or more heel strikes.   That's probably the single biggest cause of graphite shaft failure in drivers/woods at that location.  Another possibility might be from a burr at the top edge of the adapter bore.

 

 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, naj959 said:

Was told the excess epoxy creates a weak spot in the shaft when force is applied.

 

Common misconception - but false.

 

[third-times-a-charm]

As @Stuart_G said epoxy has nothing to do with shaft failures.

 

It was either a burr in the hosel, a heel strike, bad shaft prep to where the building sanded down WAY too much shaft tip, or a bad shaft from Fuji. I rarely see burrs in aluminum hosel adapters so probably one of the other three reasons.

[Trippels]

Thanks for the insight.

 

Regarding heel strikes, are you talking about very severely off center hits? Equivalent to shanking an iron essentialy?

Or do all shafts disintegrate after a few hits millimeters heelside of the sweet spot?

[DFS PFD]

4 minutes ago, Trippels said:

Thanks for the insight.

 

Regarding heel strikes, are you talking about very severely off center hits? Equivalent to shanking an iron essentialy?

Or do all shafts disintegrate after a few hits millimeters heelside of the sweet spot?

Consistent heel strikes focus a lot of impact stresses on the connection between the shaft and hosel. As much as you like hyperbole," a few hits millimeters heel side" would not be the root cause of this failure mode, unless there was existing damage others have referenced such as; burr in the hosel or poor shaft prep. You likely hit well heel side of the face in conjunction with a poorly prepped or damaged shaft from manufacturing process. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by DFS PFD

[Stuart_G]

7 minutes ago, Trippels said:

Thanks for the insight.

 

Regarding heel strikes, are you talking about very severely off center hits? Equivalent to shanking an iron essentialy?

Or do all shafts disintegrate after a few hits millimeters heelside of the sweet spot?

 

Well, it needs to be a bit more heel side than a few millimeters - but not necessarily as bad as a full hosel rocket.  Probably 3/4" to 1" heel side on a driver could potentially do it.  Maybe little less if they happen frequently.    Some shafts may be better than others although none are immune.  It can sometimes just take one hit, some times the damage builds up over multiple hits.  There is no hard data so only can give an educated guess.  

[JCAG]

At one time, some graphite shaft manufactures would not honor a warranty if the club was hit off of mats such as at a driving range.

[Socrates]

3 hours ago, naj959 said:

100% I had an iron shaft break for the same reason. Was told the excess epoxy creates a weak spot in the shaft when force is applied. I'd be trying to get some type of refund from your builder and would be hesitant to use them again. 

Absolutely false.  Old wives tale that people just can't stop telling.  

[Socrates]

A structural failure will show up almost immediately.  2 weeks into hitting it, I would have to say that it's operator error.  One thing that I've seen in the past with a breakage like that, is a that a bag that has fallen off an auto car and the driver will snap like that.  Trunk of a car or SUV and jammed in there will do the same thing.  A small nick in the shaft or a topped shot will also cause that kind of failure.  It is possible it was over-prepped, but you better have more evidence than that picture to go that route.

 

And.... Sometimes shite happens.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Socrates

[Puttersaurus Rex]

Wow.  I would find a new club builder or DIY.

[Puttersaurus Rex]

How many broken venti is this now OP?  Is this with an all fit adaptor?

[Trippels]

30 minutes ago, Socrates said:

A structural failure will show up almost immediately.  2 weeks into hitting it, I would have to say that it's operator error.  One thing that I've seen in the past with a breakage like that, is a that a bag that has fallen off an auto car and the driver will snap like that.  Trunk of a car or SUV and jammed in there will do the same thing.  A small nick in the shaft or a topped shot will also cause that kind of failure.  It is possible it was over-prepped, but you better have more evidence than that picture to go that route.

 

And.... Sometimes shite happens.

2 weeks was rounding up. Received it wednesday last week hit it for the first time thursday. It's been less than 50 shots with it.

 

Haven't dropped the bag, haven't crammed it into the car, always used a headcover, no irons near it in the bag, no nicks or scratches visible when received, no topped drives, no duffed drives. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Trippels

[Trippels]

2 minutes ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

How many broken venti is this now OP?  Is this with an all fit adaptor?

One 6x and one 6tx from one vendor, one 7tx from current vendor. 6x mizuno adapter, 6tx all fit adapter, 7tx mizuno adapter.

 

Also have a 6TX that had an adapter removed and mizuno adapter installed here locally. This has held up just fine for the past couple of months, so that's good at least.

[Puttersaurus Rex]

13 minutes ago, Trippels said:

One 6x and one 6tx from one vendor, one 7tx from current vendor. 6x mizuno adapter, 6tx all fit adapter, 7tx mizuno adapter.

 

Also have a 6TX that had an adapter removed and mizuno adapter installed here locally. This has held up just fine for the past couple of months, so that's good at least.

Thank you for the reply.

 

So three broken venti?  All at/near the tip?  What is the club length and swing weight if you don’t mind?

 

[Puttersaurus Rex]

Another question.  What epoxy is that color?  I conservatively use golfworks brand, and it is black.  Only one issue with one iron coming loose, and that was a prep error.  
 

Pretty easy to avoid epoxy far up in the shaft.

 

 

[Trippels]

7 minutes ago, Puttersaurus Rex said:

Thank you for the reply.

 

So three broken venti?  All at/near the tip?  What is the club length and swing weight if you don’t mind?

 

Three yeah, all near the tip. 6X 45" tipped 1", 6TX 45.5" untipped, and now 7TX 45" tipped 1"

Swing weights not measured, but whatever's standard from mizuno at those lengths. 

Guessing they've been between D1 and D6.

Tried extra head weight a few times, but only for a small number of swings.

[naj959]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Common misconception - but false.

 

Interesting; I posted a similar thread and that seemed to be the general consensus. Well I guess I learned something. Stuart, what would generally cause a steel shaft to break like that? Manufacturing defect?

[Puttersaurus Rex]

4 minutes ago, Trippels said:

Three yeah, all near the tip. 6X 45" tipped 1", 6TX 45.5" untipped, and now 7TX 45" tipped 1"

Swing weights not measured, but whatever's standard from mizuno at those lengths. 

Guessing they've been between D1 and D6.

Tried extra head weight a few times, but only for a small number of swings.

Thanks.  All seems reasonable to me.  🤔

 

Thinking poor tip prep or too long of a shaft for your swing/swingweight...though I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[bekgolf]

These are a few of the threads that will pop up with a search for "broken ventus". 

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/search/?q="broken ventus"&quick=1&type=forums_topic&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy

 

Edit:  I see you are already familiar with broken Ventus as you have posted in some of these threads.

 

Good luck.

Edited August 5, 2022 by bekgolf

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, naj959 said:

Interesting; I posted a similar thread and that seemed to be the general consensus. Well I guess I learned something. Stuart, what would generally cause a steel shaft to break like that? Manufacturing defect?

 

Already covered in my earlier post.

[MFBach]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

Already covered in my earlier post.

I haven’t read every “broken Ventus” shaft thread, so it might have already come up, but if my memory isn’t failing me, it seems to be primarily the Black X’s or TX’s that show in these threads. A couple things comes to mind… 

 

Players gaming a black X or TX will typically be in the higher end of the swing speed spectrum, and more speed obviously has an adverse effect on mishits in terms of vibration, torque, etc. 

 

But for a shaft of that quality to fail regularly in the same manner seems like more than a coincidence. Fujikura discourages tipping the black in most instances, I think? So given the context, I can’t help but think this might be a reason why. 
 

The black has a somewhat unique profile, with a drop in stiffness in the lower mid section, followed by an increase in stiffness in the upper tip, and finishes with a drop in stiffness to the end of the tip. I’m not a physicist by any means, but if you were to tip these shafts to a point that BBTG leaves the top of the adapter at or near the peak/height of this stiffness “hump” in the tip section, could it result in that being a stress point? Basically, less ability to withstand the forces at play during contact because the resulting tip is too stiff to pass the reaction to the softer end of the mid section? 
 

Again, it’s just a guess, but the result of a high swing speed player and an exaggerated, unforgivingly stiff tip might be contributing to some of the issues. Mix in a few ill timed heel strikes and you’re exacerbating the issue further. I could be off base here, obviously, but there has to be some contributing factor to this stuff. I’ve never seen a premium shaft or even a cheap one break so consistently and repeatedly for the same players. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by MFBach

[Stuart_G]

6 hours ago, MFBach said:

The black has a somewhat unique profile, with a drop in stiffness in the lower mid section, followed by an increase in stiffness in the upper tip, and finishes with a drop in stiffness to the end of the tip. I’m not a physicist by any means, but if you were to tip these shafts to a point that BBTG leaves the top of the adapter at or near the peak/height of this stiffness “hump” in the tip section, could it result in that being a stress point? Basically, less ability to withstand the forces at play during contact because the resulting tip is too stiff to pass the reaction to the softer end of the mid section? 

 

The top of the hosel is always going to be a high stress point for off center hits.   But you can't use the EI profiles to judge how well the shaft can handle that higher stress.

 

All graphite shafts have a reinforced tip section to help with the stresses at the top of the hosel.   This is just in the parallel tip section and a touch beyond - so it's typically not shown in any of the EI profiles.   It it did, this would be a big increase in the EI value right about the 3-4" point - and most graphs I've seen don't have measurements that close to the tip.

 

So normally, if the shaft is tipped beyond the max safe tipping (typically 1-3/4" for a 3" pts) and the hosel goes above this reinforced tip section, then yes that could result in a higher change of breakage for off center hits as a result of that excess tipping.

 

Now the historical pattern of breakages for the Ventus' could certainly indicate a less than ideal design of this reinforced section.  Although if that were the case, the amount of tipping probably doesn't matter - a weak point will exist regardless of the amount of tipping.   

 

But then I haven't really payed all that much attention to the pattern or Ventus failures.   If there were a significant difference statistical pattern of breakages for tipped and untipped shafts - it might be feasible that the amount of tipping does matter.  Or it might just mean that the breakages are more common among the higher swing speed players that are more likely to tip the shaft.