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Another shaft broke. Did they use too much epoxy?


Trippels

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12 hours ago, Trippels said:

One 6x and one 6tx from one vendor, one 7tx from current vendor. 6x mizuno adapter, 6tx all fit adapter, 7tx mizuno adapter.

 

Also have a 6TX that had an adapter removed and mizuno adapter installed here locally. This has held up just fine for the past couple of months, so that's good at least.

 

Just a question --- are these all being built by the same person/outfit?  If so, this should raise some concern.  I've been fitting for too long and I've fit long drive guys that have 135-140mph club head speeds and their shafts don't fail (even using just stock X flex stuff --- seen it with my own eyes).  My guess is that there was either some bad prep of the shaft or as others mentioned, you're actually hitting it much more heel side than you think you are.  

 

Do you hit off of mats by chance?

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15 hours ago, Trippels said:

One 6x and one 6tx from one vendor, one 7tx from current vendor. 6x mizuno adapter, 6tx all fit adapter, 7tx mizuno adapter.

You've either got to be the unluckiest guy who ever picked up a club or you're doing something that's causing these failures, though I don't have a clue what. In fifty years of playing I've broken one shaft, and that was when my bag tipped over and the driver head got caught on the rear bumper of my car.

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4 hours ago, WristySwing said:

 

Just a question --- are these all being built by the same person/outfit?  If so, this should raise some concern.  I've been fitting for too long and I've fit long drive guys that have 135-140mph club head speeds and their shafts don't fail (even using just stock X flex stuff --- seen it with my own eyes).  My guess is that there was either some bad prep of the shaft or as others mentioned, you're actually hitting it much more heel side than you think you are.  

 

Do you hit off of mats by chance?

First two breaks were built by the same shop, latest built by a different one. And the shaft I have left is built here locally. 

 

I do hit off mats when not on course, but don't see how that affects things when it's a driver. It doesn't touch the ground anyways. 

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On 8/6/2022 at 5:20 AM, WristySwing said:

you're actually hitting it much more heel side than you think you are


I’m not trying to defend the manufacturers by any means, because the cost of premium FW shafts has become somewhat ridiculous in the last 10 years, but I think a lot of the failures posted with this type of breakage (not limited to the Ventus) are due to this. 
 

I’m not trying to rag on the players here either. It doesn’t mean they’re bad and I wouldn’t discredit someone’s ability by a single picture anyway. It’s a frustrating situation, especially when it’s a multiplied occurrence, so by nature we want to know what happened and who/what caused it, but we’re usually prone to questioning ourselves after the other options are exhausted. 
 

In instances like this, a lot of players don’t realize how much force is actually applied to that area of the shaft on a mishit. this illustration is a good representation of what we already know, for the most part. 

 

905423F5-2CE5-47C8-815A-8F332C18457D.jpeg.01f410af16239084a77f8cb30eda61a4.jpeg


When we miss the center of the face, the club twists around it’s COG, with strikes low on the face twisting down and strikes on the heel twisting the club face closed. Low AND heel is a BAD combination at the speeds of some of you guys are playing.
 

Based on the original picture, it’s not completely out of the question. It looks like there are at least a few tee marks inside the scoring lines, low on the heel. I don’t know if that’s a typical miss or a coupe bad swings at the range, but it could be your shafts are playing a little too long, amongst other things. 
 

094AF7FA-BDF9-472D-9D0E-7F5528A69AE5.jpeg.4fac1ad874bf8d834c6d5feb267ab812.jpeg

 

Check out this video of Sergio making that same contact with a driver from the fairway. Now, I know it’s not exactly the same thing and yes, he’s hitting down on the ball and making contact with the turf, but that’s not the point. 
 

1 - Look at HOW the club face actually turns at impact. The club face is nearly parallel to the ground and the toe is closed at least 45*. 
 

2 - Look at WHEN this happens. It’s not when he hits the ground. It’s when he makes contact with the ball. 
 

Sergio Driver

Edited by MFBach
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How are you usually transporting the clubs?  I know my driver really doesn’t fit in my trunk in my bag with a head cover and my driver is only 44.  I take it out before I put my clubs in so I don’t force the driver in at all.

 

Probably just grasping at straws but it’s either that or heel hits in my opinion.

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2 minutes ago, taki27 said:

How are you usually transporting the clubs?  I know my driver really doesn’t fit in my trunk in my bag with a head cover and my driver is only 44.  I take it out before I put my clubs in so I don’t force the driver in at all.

 

Probably just grasping at straws but it’s either that or heel hits in my opinion.

Plenty of room during transport. So must just be heel strikes, bad luck, or more likely a combination.

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20 hours ago, Trippels said:

First two breaks were built by the same shop, latest built by a different one. And the shaft I have left is built here locally. 

 

I do hit off mats when not on course, but don't see how that affects things when it's a driver. It doesn't touch the ground anyways. 

 

My bad, missed the driver part.  The driver can touch the ground though.  Even a slight ground impact every few swings at a quick swing speed can do this.  However, I still think it's heel strikes.

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15 hours ago, MFBach said:


My post wasn’t really directed at you specifically. I’ve seen players in your position find it almost unbelievable that a shaft could break because a ball was mishit though. 
 

I will say, having 3 of your 4 shafts break/fail in similar fashion from a heel strike alone is still incredibly unlucky and unfortunate. I mentioned it earlier ITT, and I don’t have an explanation for it, but the Ventus Black and specifically the X and TX seem to have a significantly higher rate of failure at that exact location then any other shaft I’ve ever seen. 
 

Maybe it’s coincidence and we hear about it more because of the popularity and prestige of the Ventus, but it’s a bit puzzling to me. Regardless, as much as players enjoy the shaft, if it’s going to continually fail in spectacular and irreparable fashion, I would do my best to find a suitable replacement. I would have a hard time shelling out $400 for a shaft that had broken during regular use multiple times. And yes, even if your miss with a driver is heel side, which we’ve all done, that’s still regular use.
 

I don’t like to point to swing flaws as a reason for equipment failure. I obviously don’t have any idea what your playing ability is and I don’t want to come across as condescending to a stranger in an anonymous forum either. It’s hard to say that mishits are the specific cause for failure without sounding like I’m saying it’s your fault, because in my opinion, if a company is going to charge that kind of price for a product, it should be able to withstand any range of outcomes reasonably within its intended use. If 1 shaft broke? Sure, it sucks, but it happens. 3 though? I wouldn’t buy another one, personally. 

 

Anyway, I’ve played Fujikura shafts for a long time and still do. I’ve never had any issues with their durability, heel misses and all. I’ve hit the full Ventus lineup, and they are great shafts, but it was a marginally better option that my current setup, so I passed for the price. Hope you can find something you like as well that stays together for you. 

 

To piggy back on this, I have a perfect example of this from yesterday.  I was in the bay with a player who was reasonably fast (105/106) and they had a severe O-I path with an open face and downward AoA.  I am not exaggerating when I say that some of their strikes were so bad they were probably a mm or two away from completely missing the ball and whiffing that's how little of the head they caught.  When they caught it, it was all extreme low heel.  Their average driver spin was 6000 RPMs.  Needless to say, that fit quickly turned into a lesson and a "go see a pro and I'll re-fit you again in 6 months because I can't do anything with this right now."  Anyways, long-winded story short: He broke an Accra TZ5 because of what you are describing.  Sheered it right off.

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Cleveland RTX 6 Zipcore 54* Mid and 58* Low+ - DG Tour Issue Spinner

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32 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

 

Anyways, long-winded story short: He broke an Accra TZ5 because of what you are describing.  Sheered it right off.

 

One of my foster kids broke two of my "retired" shafts in two subsequent range sessions when I tried to transition him from a 42" driver to a 44" driver.   Only took about 3-5 heel hits before they broke.  Not even a very fast swing speed (probably high 80's to low 90's).

 

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3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

One of my foster kids broke two of my "retired" shafts in two subsequent range sessions when I tried to transition him from a 42" driver to a 44" driver.   Only took about 3-5 heel hits before they broke.  Not even a very fast swing speed (probably high 80's to low 90's).


Out of curiosity, because you’ve probably been at this longer than I have, but have you noticed any difference in breakage rates since the widespread adoption of adjustable adapters?
 

Maybe it’s a common occurrence across the board and more posters are inclined to ask about a Ventus because of the price tag and general frustration that comes with breaking a $400 shaft. The whole tipped black X/TX thing might just be a nod to the players themselves having the SS to shear a tip in just a few swings. 

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Thanks for all the good info @MFBach and @Stuart_G, this topic has always interested me as someone in the higher swing speed range (115-118mph) that is literally never broken a composite shaft. I am almost exclusively a slight toe miss player, the heel has always been a very rare miss for me. Not scientific by any means, but when someone is regularly sheering off heads with the same shafts we see played on tour every week i'd have to imagine there is a correlation, assuming the build practices are sound. 

Edited by Valtiel

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1 hour ago, MFBach said:


Out of curiosity, because you’ve probably been at this longer than I have, but have you noticed any difference in breakage rates since the widespread adoption of adjustable adapters?
 

 

No.  But I really haven't been at it long enough.  

 

Although, just based on the physics of impact and head design, an adjustable hosel really isn't any different than any other standard bore head in terms of the stresses placed on the shaft.  

 

If there has been any change - it's more likely due to the increase in head sizes - which means the impact can get farther from the sweet spot and put much more torque on the shaft.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

Although, just based on the physics of impact and head design, an adjustable hosel really isn't any different than any other standard bore head in terms of the stresses placed on the shaft.  

 

If there has been any change - it's more likely due to the increase in head sizes - which means the impact can get farther from the sweet spot and put much more torque on the shaft.


Makes sense for the most part. I questioned the adapters specifically because of the marginally different insertion angles offered in those situations. It’s usually not more 2* in any direction, so it was probably a long shot anyway… just another variable I considered. Basically, if a player’s setting is -1.5* loft, could the resulting shaft insertion angle add any stress to the shaft compared to a neutral, standard bore or “straight in” setting. 
 

I hadn’t even considered the size of the face/club head, but that’s obviously 100% accurate. More room to miss the center of mass means more potential stress to the shaft on mishits. I’ve been wondering about this for a couple days and feel like I’ve missed the easiest explanation one could offer. Good stuff. 

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I agree with all the comments that heel strikes are contributing to the breakages, but feel this has more to do with the adapter itself.  Mizuno doesn’t use any kind of collared ferrule to give a “buffer” between the shaft and the metal adapter.  If the shaft isn’t perfectly centered in the adapter, the shaft can rest directly against the sharp top edge of the adapter creating a shear point.  If the shaft is centered then the epoxy creates a buffer.  Not the best design in my opnion, leaves very little room for error.

 

Ping had a similar issue with the first few versions of their adapter until they added the rubber ferrules you now see on the current adapters.

Edited by jblough99
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9 hours ago, jblough99 said:

I agree with all the comments that heel strikes are contributing to the breakages, but feel this has more to do with the adapter itself.  Mizuno doesn’t use any kind of collared ferrule to give a “buffer” between the shaft and the metal adapter.  

 

Only a collared ferule would potentially help with that - and it's not really all that much help.  And as a reference TM has never used collared ferrules with their adapter.   Yet I haven't noticed any increase in breakage percentages in their heads.    Titleist and Callaway do and now so does Ping.  Not sure but I don't think Cobra does.

 

It does make it more important to check for burrs at the top of the hosel bore.

 

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34 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Only a collared ferule would potentially help with that - and it's not really all that much help.  And as a reference TM has never used collared ferrules with their adapter.   Yet I haven't noticed any increase in breakage percentages in their heads.    Titleist and Callaway do and now so does Ping.  Not sure but I don't think Cobra does.

 

It does make it more important to check for burrs at the top of the hosel bore.

 

Inexperienced builders trying to scrape epoxy out of soft aluminum adapters with pointy/sharp razor blades causes burrs in that upper area.

 

Also Taylormade does use a plastic ferrule at the top.

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7 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Inexperienced builders trying to scrape epoxy out of soft aluminum adapters with pointy/sharp razor blades causes burrs in that upper area.

 

Certainly possible.

 

7 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Also Taylormade does use a plastic ferrule at the top.

 

On the older adapters, it actually mounted over the metal and was glued to the adapter - didn't even touch the shaft in most cases.  And even the newer ones are not collared - so don't add any cushioning.  It's purely aesthetic.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Certainly possible.

 

 

On the older adapters, it actually mounted over the metal and was glued to the adapter - didn't even touch the shaft in most cases.  And even the newer ones are not collared - so don't add any cushioning.  It's purely aesthetic.

 

 

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Just now, Stuart_G said:

 

Interesting.  That's a new change.  Thanks for posting.   Do you know when they started that?   Is that stock or tour or aftermarket?

 

 

Stock nothing special. I've seen it on TM adapters since the M-line but maybe later ones like the M5/6? Not sure on exact timeline. All the 'aftermarket' adapters are like that as well since they mimic the OEM.

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14 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Stock nothing special. I've seen it on TM adapters since the M-line but maybe later ones like the M5/6? Not sure on exact timeline. All the 'aftermarket' adapters are like that as well since they mimic the OEM.

 

M1 and M2 stock adapters were definitely not collared.   Don't think the M3's were either but not 100% since the shaft I got with mine wasn't factory.   So the M5/6 timeline seems to make sense.

 

Tour issue were typically all metal - no ferrules - although don't know if that's still the case.

 

CMX aftermarket are still all metal as well - no ferrule.  Not aware of any other proper aftermarket brands.   Although course you never know what you'll get with the chinese knock offs.

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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18 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

M1 and M2 stock adapters were definitely not collared.   Don't think the M3's were either but not 100% since the shaft I got with mine wasn't factory.   So the M5/6 timeline seems to make sense.

 

Tour issue were typically all metal - no ferrules - although don't know if that's still the case.

 

CMX aftermarket are still all metal as well - no ferrule.  Not aware of any other proper aftermarket brands.   Although course you never know what you'll get with the chinese knock offs.

 


All of the Taylormade adaptors I have purchased in the last 5+ years have been had collared ferrules, both the standard retail ones and the tour issued ones. The collared ferrule is plastic as well, I think the "all metal" comments that I too misinterpreted were in regards to the retail adaptors *at the time* which had these plastic outer collars:

1832216176_ScreenShot2022-08-08at11_58_12PM.png.156e0825b4c38654a298ed94f9a14aed.png

Whereas the tour issued adaptors looked (and still do) like this:

2091659586_ScreenShot2022-08-08at11_59_52PM.png.6ffd7e3f758a4bc4af820e7ca3185e92.png

Solid metal instead of the outer plastic collar, but still a plastic collared ferrule. This one has been the tour issue adaptor since the beginning of the M-series (2016), hence distinguishing it as "all metal" even if that was only relevant for one product cycle.

THEN in 2017 with the second version of the M1/M2, they switched to the one @third-times-a-charm posted which is still stock today:

1060311945_ScreenShot2022-08-09at12_03_42AM.png.e25d587aec41d5629574a94178502ea0.png

There are "all metal" as well just like tour issue ones, but are physically a little smaller and lighter. I think they've always tried to shave as much weight as possible off the stock adaptors to hit their swingweight target while being 45.75" stock, hence having a plastic outer collar on the "older" version, fluting in the metal on the versions before that (SLDR, R9), and a why the newer/current version is necked down like a bullet casing. 

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@Valtiel   The all metal tour issue adapters I was referring to were really all metal.  No plastic at all.   That started back in the first gen adapter days.  They were popular for a while as they made swapping out much easier since you didn't have to worry about having to replace the plastic outer ferrule.   The plastic outer collars was just the original "ferrule" design - used on all non-tour issue from the R9 through to the R1.  After that it was sporadically used and alternated with a design that had a very small thin, non-collared ring ferrule (RBZ 2/jetspeed adapters) at least up to the M1/2 line.    After that, I admit, I stopped paying attention to the TM adapter variants.

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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  • 5 months later...
On 8/5/2022 at 5:45 PM, Trippels said:

One 6x and one 6tx from one vendor, one 7tx from current vendor. 6x mizuno adapter, 6tx all fit adapter, 7tx mizuno adapter.

 

Also have a 6TX that had an adapter removed and mizuno adapter installed here locally. This has held up just fine for the past couple of months, so that's good at least.

Hey, just came across your post… I’ve experienced very similar occurrences with project x shafts in the last 18 months. I have had 5 hzrdus smoke green 70 6.5tx break all inside the adapter. Only one of them occurred while actually swinging. I really don’t think it’s heel strikes, as my ball flight and trajectory, along with launch monitor numbers all relatively ideal. I’ve been trying to figure out answers/solutions, but supplier I ordered from, project x, club champion, Taylor made all basically had no idea. 

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On 8/5/2022 at 3:23 PM, Stuart_G said:

 

Common misconception - but false.

 

Agree doesn’t make logical sense.  
 

I just had a ventus red snap.  And it really is burning me up..    It snapped on the 3rd Swing in a 7 wood. 

DFABB7D8-7A72-4F16-8C84-908D840D1655.jpeg

01F5A581-FEE4-4641-9B7E-4DB3DB2DAA59.jpeg

Edited by bladehunter

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3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Agree doesn’t make logical sense.  
 

I just had a ventus red snap.  And it really is burning me up..    It snapped on the 3rd Swing in a 7 wood. 

DFABB7D8-7A72-4F16-8C84-908D840D1655.jpeg

01F5A581-FEE4-4641-9B7E-4DB3DB2DAA59.jpeg

The shaft didn't break. The adapter did. 

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5 minutes ago, DYOS4 said:

The shaft didn't break. The adapter did. 

Both did.  There’s 3/8 inch of shaft still in the head part of the adapter. 

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      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies

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