Ball that crosses a red penalty area but then continues ob

[dugue4]

If I hit a ball into a red penalty area but the boundary of the course goes through the penalty area, is my ball in the penalty area or out of bounds?

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, dugue4 said:

If I hit a ball into a red penalty area but the boundary of the course goes through the penalty area, is my ball in the penalty area or out of bounds?

 

It depends where it ends up. If it ends up out of bounds then it is out of bounds.

 

Just to be clear, the boundary does not go through the penalty area but it tells you where the PA ends and that is the boundary of the course. If the boundary travels across a pond or similar it might be bad planning as it will be very difficult to say where the ball has ended up.

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

24 minutes ago, dugue4 said:

If I hit a ball into a red penalty area but the boundary of the course goes through the penalty area, is my ball in the penalty area or out of bounds?

Did the ball cross the margin where the penalty area meets the OB boundary?

[szaino]

When a penalty area abuts OB, the PA is deemed to extend indefinitely. For example a small creek running along a fairway and the other side of the creek is OB. Not sure if this is a local rule that needs to be adopted or just one of the general rules, but I have come across this numerous times.  

 

So if your ball crossed the margin of the PA and you find your ball on the other side in someone's back yard, or in the woods, it doesn't matter where it came to rest- it is not OB and you would be able to take PA relief.  

 

 

[Newby]

21 minutes ago, szaino said:

When a penalty area abuts OB, the PA is deemed to extend indefinitely.

 

 

Where did you get this from?

[Mr. Bean]

41 minutes ago, szaino said:

When a penalty area abuts OB, the PA is deemed to extend indefinitely. For example a small creek running along a fairway and the other side of the creek is OB. Not sure if this is a local rule that needs to be adopted or just one of the general rules, but I have come across this numerous times.  

 

So if your ball crossed the margin of the PA and you find your ball on the other side in someone's back yard, or in the woods, it doesn't matter where it came to rest- it is not OB and you would be able to take PA relief.  

 

 

 

Somebody is now in the woods... deep...

[szaino]

14 minutes ago, Newby said:

Where did you get this from?

 

Well I didn't make it up ??

 

 

 

[szaino]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Somebody is now in the woods... deep...

 

Follow me- it's not as bad as you think !

[davep043]

9 minutes ago, szaino said:

 

Well I didn't make it up ??

 

 

 

There's a big difference between your post, deeming the PA to extend to infinity, and the bit you quoted, which allows the Committee to define it that way.  

[Halebopp]

17 minutes ago, szaino said:

 

Well I didn't make it up ??

 

 

 

 

You've seriously misunderstood those texts. In the first case there is no OB and therefore the Penalty Area extends to infinity. The local rule simply covers any claims of an improperly marked PA, in which case the Definition of PA would tell us the unreachable ball that's come to rest on land wouldn't be in the PA.

 

In the second case the ball needs to come to rest in the Penalty Area and, when the ball crosses into the PA from OB, the opposite-side relief option is recommended to provide players with another relief option alongside Stroke and Distance relief.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Halebopp

[szaino]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

There's a big difference between your post, deeming the PA to extend to infinity, and the bit you quoted, which allows the Committee to define it that way.  

 I said in my post that it could be a local rule

[sui generis]

🙄

Edited August 5, 2022 by sui generis

[dugue4]

This was the hole in question. I tried to cut the corner but ball had other ideas. 

[Augster]

If the ball lies OB, it’s OB. The ONLY way for a ball to be OB is that the committee has to define where OB is. Otherwise, we have infinite room around a course to play the game. 
 

That said, if the committee defines OB on the opposite side of a PA, and now your ball lies OB, it’s OB. 
 

The “infinite PA” only applies to parts of the course that have not been defined as OB, and large bodies, like an ocean to the left of 18th at Pebble. 

[antip]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

If the ball lies OB, it’s OB. The ONLY way for a ball to be OB is that the committee has to define where OB is. Otherwise, we have infinite room around a course to play the game. 
 

That said, if the committee defines OB on the opposite side of a PA, and now your ball lies OB, it’s OB. 
 

The “infinite PA” only applies to parts of the course that have not been defined as OB, and large bodies, like an ocean to the left of 18th at Pebble. 

I suggest your "ONLY way" comment is too restrictive. The neighbouring properties are OB regardless of what the Committee has done, they are outside the boundary of the course - that is a legal rather than a Committee marking issue. But if a Committee hasn't made clear where the edge is then it is left to the player's own devices to make the call, which is very undesirable and irresponsible of the Committee. Neighbours are sometimes helpful, building big fences, employing vicious dogs etc, etc.

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, antip said:

I suggest your "ONLY way" comment is too restrictive. The neighbouring properties are OB regardless of what the Committee has done, they are outside the boundary of the course - that is a legal rather than a Committee marking issue. But if a Committee hasn't made clear where the edge is then it is left to the player's own devices to make the call, which is very undesirable and irresponsible of the Committee. Neighbours are sometimes helpful, building big fences, employing vicious dogs etc, etc.

 

We may be experiencing a cultural difference here. At some country golf course, with no discernable committee, the farmer's meadow left of #4 just may be in play. Or, at a la-de-dah course at which I've refereed, the home owners' properties which line many fairways are not marked or played as out of bounds. (It's a crap arrangement and I don't look forward to refereeing there ever again.)

[antip]

40 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

We may be experiencing a cultural difference here. At some country golf course, with no discernable committee, the farmer's meadow left of #4 just may be in play. Or, at a la-de-dah course at which I've refereed, the home owners' properties which line many fairways are not marked or played as out of bounds. (It's a crap arrangement and I don't look forward to refereeing there ever again.)

Here the farmers always seem to fence, but we see plenty of stories of the livestock on the course in parts of the UK ("can I get relief from that fresh cow pat? No, but you may move it providing the ball doesn't move"). On your latter example, I'd be trying to tool up pre-event with some paint/stakes.

[sui generis]

3 minutes ago, antip said:

I'd be trying to tool up pre-event with some paint/stakes.

 

The course (and home owners) wouldn't let us do that. 🙄 The best we could do is tell the players to not play out of the flower beds. Post 2019, if that course comes up again perhaps some sort of unmarked red PA compromise can be made to work.

[antip]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

The course (and home owners) wouldn't let us do that. 🙄 The best we could do is tell the players to not play out of the flower beds. Post 2019, if that course comes up again perhaps some sort of unmarked red PA compromise can be made to work.

There are extremely non-intrusive options - temporary small stakes or flags could be put out and removed same day if needed. But if they won't even accept that then the players can have at it and chew up those yards.

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, szaino said:

 I said in my post that it could be a local rule

 

What you said in your post CANNOT be a Local Rule. Penalty Area CANNOT extend to infinity outside the boundaries of the course, it ends where the course ends.

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Mr. Bean
Typo

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

We may be experiencing a cultural difference here. At some country golf course, with no discernable committee, the farmer's meadow left of #4 just may be in play. Or, at a la-de-dah course at which I've refereed, the home owners' properties which line many fairways are not marked or played as out of bounds. (It's a crap arrangement and I don't look forward to refereeing there ever again.)

 

So what you do is you tell the player to walk to their ball. If the player is not gunned down by the property owner the ball is in bounds.

[Newby]

9 hours ago, szaino said:

 I said in my post that it could be a local rule

There was no mention of a Local Rule in the OP.

However the OP implies that OB is actually defined (the boundary of the course goes through the penalty area)

[Newby]

13 hours ago, dugue4 said:

If I hit a ball into a red penalty area but the boundary of the course goes through the penalty area, is my ball in the penalty area or out of bounds?

Your ball seems to have finished near a blue tennis court. There doesn't seem to be a marking of the PA and OB shared margin. Where is the missing red line?

[dugue4]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Your ball seems to have finished near a blue tennis court. There doesn't seem to be a marking of the PA and OB shared margin. Where is the missing red line?

I didn’t/couldn’t see through the trees. I’m sure there was a property fence there which marks OB as per course rules. 
 

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by dugue4

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, dugue4 said:

I didn’t/couldn’t see through the trees. I’m sure there was a property fence there which marks OB as per course rules. 
 

 

 

So you know your ball was lost in the water (= PA) but cannot tell where. In the absence of such knowledge the Interpretation 17.1a/2 gives some guidance:

 

"Ball Lost in Either Penalty Area or Abnormal Course Condition Adjacent to Penalty Area

 

If a player's ball is not found in an area where there is a penalty area and an adjacent abnormal course condition, the player must use reasonable judgment (Rule 1.3b(2)) when determining the location of the ball. If, after applying reasonable judgment, it is known or virtually certain that the ball has come to rest in one of those areas but both are equally likely, the player must take penalty relief under Rule 17."

 

That Int suggests one has to take the more severe option of the possible two, so in your case if you cannot tell (= have KVC) your ball is lost in the PA then it is OB.

[Augster]

13 hours ago, antip said:

I suggest your "ONLY way" comment is too restrictive. The neighbouring properties are OB regardless of what the Committee has done, they are outside the boundary of the course - that is a legal rather than a Committee marking issue. But if a Committee hasn't made clear where the edge is then it is left to the player's own devices to make the call, which is very undesirable and irresponsible of the Committee. Neighbours are sometimes helpful, building big fences, employing vicious dogs etc, etc.

The neighboring properties are not OB unless defined as OB by the committee. I’m not sure where you’re getting that information from. In the ROG, there is no mention of property lines. 
 

Here is the definition of OB:

“All areas outside the boundary edge of the course as defined by the Committee.”

 

And here is the definition of COURSE:

“The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee:”

 

If the committee has not set the boundaries, all the world is in play. Your ball can never be OB unless the committee has defined the course boundaries. 
 

 

[Mr. Bean]

36 minutes ago, Augster said:

The neighboring properties are not OB unless defined as OB by the committee. I’m not sure where you’re getting that information from. In the ROG, there is no mention of property lines. 
 

Here is the definition of OB:

“All areas outside the boundary edge of the course as defined by the Committee.”

 

And here is the definition of COURSE:

“The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee:”

 

If the committee has not set the boundaries, all the world is in play. Your ball can never be OB unless the committee has defined the course boundaries. 
 

 

 

You are absolutely correct ruleswise but I suppose antip means those areas are not to be played from and should be treated as OB as there is no way they could be part of the course.

[szaino]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What you said in your post CANNOT be a Local Rule. Penalty Area CANNOT extend to infinity outside the boundaries of the course, it ends where the course ends.

 

 

The below is from the USGA rules. In fact the PA can extend to infinity (theoretically) as far as golf play. 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

12 minutes ago, szaino said:

 

The below is from the USGA rules. In fact the PA can extend to infinity (theoretically) as far as golf play. 

 

 

 

You still do not get it, do you?

 

A Penalty Area CANNOT continue to infinity if there is a course boundary PREVENTING IT.

 

In other words, beyond the boundaries of the course THERE ARE NO PENALTY AREAS.

 

Geeez...

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[szaino]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You still do not get it, do you?

 

A Penalty Area CANNOT continue to infinity if there is a course boundary PREVENTING IT.

 

In other words, beyond the boundaries of the course THERE ARE NO PENALTY AREAS.

 

Geeez...

 

 

You are technically correct in what you say above, but the committee is allowed to redefine what might legally be off course property as a penalty area, and, in effect not out of bounds, and this PA extends to infinity (as far as golf is concerned). 

 

Isn't this exactly what this is saying?