Ball that crosses a red penalty area but then continues ob

[Colin L]

6 minutes ago, szaino said:

 

You are technically correct in what you say above, but the committee is allowed to redefine what might legally be off course property as a penalty area, and, in effect not out of bounds, and this PA extends to infinity (as far as golf is concerned). 

 

Isn't this exactly what this is saying?

 

 

You are completely missing the either/or nature of it is permissible to mark such an area as a penalty area rather than marking it as out of bounds .   

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, szaino said:

 

The below is from the USGA rules. In fact the PA can extend to infinity (theoretically) as far as golf play. 

 

 

 

Tell me, can there be a Penalty Area that is off course? In other words, what kind of meaning could a PA off the course have as a ball off the course is out of bounds?

 

Definition of Penalty Area:

 

"Penalty Area: An area from which relief with a one-stroke penalty is allowed if the player’s ball comes to rest there. A penalty area is: • Any body of water on the course (whether or not marked by the Committee), including a sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open watercourse (even if not containing water), and • Any other part of the course the Committee defines as a penalty area. A penalty area is one of the five defined areas of the course."

 

In very simple English: A Penalty Area is PART OF THE COURSE. Thus it cannot extend off the course.

 

I hope you digest these words carefully before taking another stand on the matter.

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[scott_Donald]

trying o work out what hole and course that is in Houston.

[Colin L]

@sxaino

Here's an example of a penalty area along the dunes above a beach with no course boundary marked or defined in the local rules.  In this case, without a boundary, the penalty area extends endlessly across the Atlantic and beyond.  WIth a bit of creative licence, you could imagine it incorporates your home  and so if you played few chips and putts in your yard you could claim you had played on Machrihanish in Scotland. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, Colin L said:

@sxaino

... if you played few chips and putts in your yard you could claim you had played on Machrihanish in Scotland. 

 

 Not to mention thousands of other courses in the world having no boundaries 🤓

[dugue4]

1 hour ago, scott_Donald said:

trying o work out what hole and course that is in Houston.

Guess, I’ll tell you if you’re right. 

[Colin L]

Deleted

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Colin L

[Colin L]

 

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 Not to mention thousands of other courses in the world having no boundaries 🤓

Indeed, but Machrihanish is special.

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, Colin L said:

 

Indeed, but Machrihanish is special.

 

Of course it is.

[antip]

14 hours ago, Colin L said:

 

Indeed, but Machrihanish is special.

It sounds like a single malt to me.

[antip]

20 hours ago, Augster said:

The neighboring properties are not OB unless defined as OB by the committee. I’m not sure where you’re getting that information from. In the ROG, there is no mention of property lines. 
 

Here is the definition of OB:

“All areas outside the boundary edge of the course as defined by the Committee.”

 

And here is the definition of COURSE:

“The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee:”

 

If the committee has not set the boundaries, all the world is in play. Your ball can never be OB unless the committee has defined the course boundaries. 
 

 

The courses I'm associated with locally have acrimonious  and litigous relationships with the surrounding properties and operate under strict restrictions from the local council authorities. These folk don't give two hoots about the rules of golf and how the Committee go about their business providing the club does not intrude on their space. So that is what has coloured my comments above.

Yes, in a technical sense, the Committee Procedures 2A place little limitation on what a Committee does in respect of boundaries, but that doesn't cut it in the real world. 

I've also seen interesting examples on courses here where golfers are required to log and report where balls have crossed outside the course property in specific places, such are the complex legal and insurance contractual arrangements that sometimes exist.

So there does appear to be some cultural issues at play - I've never experienced a course in this country that does not define it's boundaries.

[rogolf]

17 minutes ago, antip said:

It sounds like a single malt to me.

That is certainly available there!!!

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, antip said:

So there does appear to be some cultural issues at play - I've never experienced a course in this country that does not define it's boundaries.

 

I know, what a world, eh? Four of the dozen nearest courses to me have no markings whatsoever and no published local rules. Yet, three of the can be fun to play. 😉

Edited August 7, 2022 by sui generis

[antip]

10 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

I know, what a world, eh? Four of the dozen nearest courses to me have no markings whatsoever and no published local rules. Yet, three of the can be fun to play. 😉

That is mind boggling. Seems to shout "we're only here for your money to access our space we set up to pull you in, you're on your own for anything else".

Edited August 7, 2022 by antip
premature button push

[Colin L]

17 hours ago, antip said:

It sounds like a single malt to me.

A touch of prescience there.  There isn't at the moment a Machrihanish whisky but a new farm distillery is planned to start up there next year.  Given the required minimum 3 year maturing time, you'll have to wait a while to sample a "wee goldie" from it.  In the meantime, I can recommend the malts from any of the 3 distilleries in closely neighbouring Campbeltown with a particular mention of Springbank.  19th century Campbeltown was something of a whisky capital with no fewer than 37 distilleries over the time.  Into the 20th century, my mother told me there were over 20 working  distilleries when she was a young girl.  The golfing must at times have been "interesting". 

 

Slainte Mhath!   🥃

[antip]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

A touch of prescience there.  There isn't at the moment a Machrihanish whisky but a new farm distillery is planned to start up there next year.  Given the required minimum 3 year maturing time, you'll have to wait a while to sample a "wee goldie" from it.  In the meantime, I can recommend the malts from any of the 3 distilleries in closely neighbouring Campbeltown with a particular mention of Springbank.  19th century Campbeltown was something of a whisky capital with no fewer than 37 distilleries over the time.  Into the 20th century, my mother told me there were over 20 working  distilleries when she was a young girl.  The golfing must at times have been "interesting". 

 

Slainte Mhath!   🥃

Any estimate of a number of the home stills? Or is that only the folk across the Irish Sea?

[Nevets4433]

Unless local rules are in play, the ball lies out of bounds.  The penalty area ends at the OB line.  The problem lies in defining the OB line in these situations which is why some courses choose the hazard to infinity rule

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, Nevets4433 said:

Unless local rules are in play, the ball lies out of bounds.  The penalty area ends at the OB line.  The problem lies in defining the OB line in these situations which is why some courses choose the hazard to infinity rule

 

So... how Local Rules specifically would change the outcome?

[Nevets4433]

If the local rule for hazard to infinity is in place, then the ball would be deemed lost in the penalty area.

 

if not, it would likely be deemed lost OB

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Nevets4433 said:

If the local rule for hazard to infinity is in place, then the ball would be deemed lost in the penalty area.

 

if not, it would likely be deemed lost OB

 

Oh my... have you read any of the posts of this thread..?

[szaino]

1 hour ago, Nevets4433 said:

If the local rule for hazard to infinity is in place, then the ball would be deemed lost in the penalty area.

 

if not, it would likely be deemed lost OB

I agree with you.

The so called "infinity rule" is the only point that I was adding to the original post. The wording of the rule seems pretty simple when I read it.    

[Krt22]

24 minutes ago, szaino said:

I agree with you.

The so called "infinity rule" is the only point that I was adding to the original post. The wording of the rule seems pretty simple when I read it.    

Except it simply does not apply to the OP's case. The rule exists when it's "impractical to define the opposing edge". The opposing edge was already defined...as out of bounds since the PA butted up against the course boundary. 

[szaino]

2 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Except it simply does not apply to the OP's case. The rule exists when it's "impractical to define the opposing edge". The opposing edge was already defined...as out of bounds since the PA butted up against the course boundary. 

 

The initial post didn't discuss this. So I was just replying to a possibility if there was a local rule for this (which we still don't know if there is or not).

 

And, the subsequent drawing supplied does in fact show that the red penalty area markings do not extend to the opposing edge which seems to be be OB but is unmarked on the drawing (where the ball entered). So this could be a case where the PA abuts the OB and the "infinity rule" may be applied by the committee. 

[Krt22]

4 minutes ago, szaino said:

 

The initial post didn't discuss this. So I was just replying to a possibility if there was a local rule for this (which we still don't know if there is or not).

 

It was literally in the OP.  If your ball lands past the boundary of the course, its out of bounds

 

On 8/5/2022 at 11:11 AM, dugue4 said:

If I hit a ball into a red penalty area but the boundary of the course goes through the penalty area, is my ball in the penalty area or out of bounds?

[Isaac_Newton]

On 8/6/2022 at 11:12 AM, Augster said:

The neighboring properties are not OB unless defined as OB by the committee. I’m not sure where you’re getting that information from. In the ROG, there is no mention of property lines. 
 

Here is the definition of OB:

“All areas outside the boundary edge of the course as defined by the Committee.”

 

And here is the definition of COURSE:

“The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee:”

 

If the committee has not set the boundaries, all the world is in play. Your ball can never be OB unless the committee has defined the course boundaries. 
 

 

i think he is saying that local ordnance takes precedence over the rules of golf. Sure the committee can deem farmer joes field is in play. If farmer Joe disagrees then it is trespassing. Regardless of any committee decision, the world is not in play. 

[szaino]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

It was literally in the OP.  If your ball lands past the boundary of the course, its out of bounds

 

 

You are correct if it comes to rest OB.

 

But the whole point of this discussion was the OP was not sure because the boundary line went through the penalty area. In these situations where PA abuts OB it becomes difficult to determine which side of the line the ball came to rest. That is why the USGA rules allow the committee to deem the penalty area and all what would normally be OB beyond it as a PA in infinity (see prior posts with these rules), in other word not OB. So OB rules cease to exist for a ball entering this PA. I have seen this many times including my old course. 

 

We don't have the local rules sheet and don't have the exact course markings, so the infinity rule may or may not apply. I would just call the pro shop and ask them.   

[Krt22]

9 minutes ago, szaino said:

 

You are correct if it comes to rest OB.

 

But the whole point of this discussion was the OP was not sure because the boundary line went through the penalty area. In these situations where PA abuts OB it becomes difficult to determine which side of the line the ball came to rest. That is why the USGA rules allow the committee to deem the penalty area and all what would normally be OB beyond it as a PA in infinity (see prior posts with these rules), in other word not OB. So OB rules cease to exist for a ball entering this PA. I have seen this many times including my old course. 

 

We don't have the local rules sheet and don't have the exact course markings, so the infinity rule may or may not apply. I would just call the pro shop and ask them.   

He also said he was certain there was a fence marking the property line, so again that rule simply does not apply, it only applies when OB is not defined.

 

If you can't tell which side of that fence the ball might have landed on , then you have to play it as if it went OB. 

[Augster]

8 hours ago, Krt22 said:

He also said he was certain there was a fence marking the property line, so again that rule simply does not apply, it only applies when OB is not defined.

 

If you can't tell which side of that fence the ball might have landed on , then you have to play it as if it went OB. 

Ah, but has the boundary fence been defined as marking OB by the committee?

 

While a boundary fence shows the limits of the property, unless it’s defined as OB by the committee, the boundary fence does not define the boundary of the COURSE. 
 

So we’d need to know that before deciding whether this is an infinite PA or not. 

[Colin L]

17 hours ago, Isaac_Newton said:

I think he is saying that local ordnance takes precedence over the rules of golf....  

 

Some local ordnance would certainly take precedence over.... well, almost anything.

[Krt22]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

Ah, but has the boundary fence been defined as marking OB by the committee?

 

While a boundary fence shows the limits of the property, unless it’s defined as OB by the committee, the boundary fence does not define the boundary of the COURSE. 
 

So we’d need to know that before deciding whether this is an infinite PA or not. 

This is a real head scratcher. The OP clearly said it was the boundary of the course. If you are outside the boundary of the course, how are you not out of bounds? If the committee didn't define it, then golfers can hop the fence and hit out of the guys back yard? 

 

Give me a break. We can nitpick on semantics, but let's not forget common sense