Why 4 rounds?

[BrendanW]

Just a little aside from the LIV / PGA topic.

 

There's an argument that 3 rounds is not enough to separate the 'wheat from the chaff'. Four rounds is 'obviously' better.

 

My question is why is the PGA and most other tours four rounds? Why not five, or six rounds, if more rounds means better separation of good from average players? Was four an arbitrary number that someone thought was good, or is there some science behind it? Is it purely commercial for TV reasons? Historical?

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by BrendanW

[randytrevor]

Only like 40% of 54-hole leaders go on to win, so that right there is an argument for keeping 4-rounds. Cant comment on a winning percentage past 4-rounds cause it doesn't exist. As far as extending to 5 or 6-rounds, I think the issue is two-fold. First and foremost travel between tourneys and players needing rest in between tourneys. I think we would see weaker fields overall if players had to play Wed-Sun, Travel, Prep and play again. It would be exaggerated even more if the Tourney was Tues-Sun because playing in back-to-back weeks would be extremely difficult. Secondly, is there enough fan interest for a Tuesday or Wednesday competitive golf. Maybe for majors, but it would be non-existent for smaller events. I enjoy watching golf but most of it is spent on the weekends.

 

 

Also, don't know the reason for initially going with 4-rounds, but it seems like the sweet spot between separating the best players that week, having enough interest from fans, and allowing players to travel and recover from previous week tourney.

   

Edited August 8, 2022 by randytrevor
Added text

[golfortennis]

32 minutes ago, randytrevor said:

Only like 40% of 54-hole leaders go on to win, so that right there is an argument for keeping 4-rounds. Cant comment on a winning percentage past 4-rounds cause it doesn't exist. As far as extending to 5 or 6-rounds, I think the issue is two-fold. First and foremost travel between tourneys and players needing rest in between tourneys. I think we would see weaker fields overall if players had to play Wed-Sun, Travel, Prep and play again. It would be exaggerated even more if the Tourney was Tues-Sun because playing in back-to-back weeks would be extremely difficult. Secondly, is there enough fan interest for a Tuesday or Wednesday competitive golf. Maybe for majors, but it would be non-existent for smaller events. I enjoy watching golf but most of it is spent on the weekends.

 

 

Also, don't know the reason for initially going with 4-rounds, but it seems like the sweet spot between separating the best players that week, having enough interest from fans, and allowing players to travel and recover from previous week tourney.

   

 

Las Vegas and the Hope were 90 hole tournaments for many years, so yes it does exist.  

 

While I'm agnostic on 54 vs 72 holes as a standard, it really seems like the argument being made currently is more about "this is how we've always done it", and some serious gatekeeping, rather than anyone making a real good argument for it.

 

 

[TwistedSister]

49 minutes ago, randytrevor said:

Only like 40% of 54-hole leaders go on to win, so that right there is an argument for keeping 4-rounds. Cant comment on a winning percentage past 4-rounds cause it doesn't exist. As far as extending to 5 or 6-rounds, I think the issue is two-fold. First and foremost travel between tourneys and players needing rest in between tourneys. I think we would see weaker fields overall if players had to play Wed-Sun, Travel, Prep and play again. It would be exaggerated even more if the Tourney was Tues-Sun because playing in back-to-back weeks would be extremely difficult. Secondly, is there enough fan interest for a Tuesday or Wednesday competitive golf. Maybe for majors, but it would be non-existent for smaller events. I enjoy watching golf but most of it is spent on the weekends.

 

 

Also, don't know the reason for initially going with 4-rounds, but it seems like the sweet spot between separating the best players that week, having enough interest from fans, and allowing players to travel and recover from previous week tourney.

   

The Bob Hope Desert Classic used to be 5 rounds.  Maybe someone that is bored can go back and check how the 72 hole leaders fared in the last 18 holes

[randytrevor]

31 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

Las Vegas and the Hope were 90 hole tournaments for many years, so yes it does exist.  

 

While I'm agnostic on 54 vs 72 holes as a standard, it really seems like the argument being made currently is more about "this is how we've always done it", and some serious gatekeeping, rather than anyone making a real good argument for it.

 

 

 

Thank you! I didnt know those were 90 hole tourneys

 

Probably has to do with this is how its always been done. But you can say that about any sport, why 4quarters in a football game? I just did a light search and noticed teams with a halftime lead win about 75% of the time. 

 

For golf I was able to find only about 17% of first round leaders go on to win, I wasn't able to find stats on second round, its about 40% with a 54-hole lead (unless your name is Tiger Woods), and I have no idea about the Hope or Vegas before they switched to 72-holes.

 

On the other hand, what would be a good reason the change it? At some point there has to be diminishing returns

[Abh159]

14 hours ago, BrendanW said:

My question is why is the PGA and most other tours four rounds? Why not five, or six rounds, if more rounds means better separation of good from average players? Was four an arbitrary number that someone thought was good, or is there some science behind it? Is it purely commercial for TV reasons? Historical?

 

Might be kind of tough to travel from event to event when you only have 1-2 non-tournament days each week.

[Hawkeye77]

Monday qualifying, pro-am, a little time to practice and four rounds to have a solid test of golf.

[ChipNRun]

45 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

While I'm agnostic on 54 vs 72 holes as a standard, it really seems like the argument being made currently is more about "this is how we've always done it", and some serious gatekeeping, rather than anyone making a real good argument for it.

 

The 72-hole version of major (now mostly pro) tournaments came through evolution.

 

Online searches gave info mainly on the U.S. Open Tournament Format. Starting in 1926, the U.S. Open played Thursday and Friday rounds to determine the 36-hole cut, and then played a 36-hole finale on Saturdays.

 

This changed in 1965, when the US Open went to four days with a Sunday finale. Reasons for move included TV and endurance. Television could give better coverage with single days for the third and fourth round. Endurance centered on the idea that the host course, Bellerive CC in St. Louis, was the longest course (at that time) in US Open history. There was concern whether golfers could traverse it twice on a hot June day.

 

Can't find info on when other pro tournaments to Thursday through Sunday play.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by ChipNRun
Adjust dates.

[Hawkeye77]

13 minutes ago, ChipNRun said:

 

The 72-hole version of major (now mostly pro) tournaments came through evolution.

 

Online searches gave info mainly on the U.S. Open Tournament Format. Starting in 1926, the U.S. Open played Thursday and Friday rounds to determine the 36-hole cut, and then played a 36-hole finale on Saturdays.

 

This changed in 1965, when the US Open went to four days with a Sunday finale. Reasons for move included TV and endurance. Television could give better coverage with single days for the third and fourth round. Endurance centered on the idea that the host course, Bellerive CC in St. Louis, was the longest course (at that time) in US Open history. There was concern whether golfers could traverse it twice on a hot June day.

 

Can't find info on when other pro tournaments to Thursday through Sunday play.

 

The Open Championship was four 18 hole rounds starting around 1892, so a format that was in place for quite some time.

 

Western Open was 4 rounds as of 1902 - most "tour" tourneys were 72 holes.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Hawkeye77

[Nevets4433]

Much of golf is based upon tradition.  May tournaments used to be fewer rounds, but it seems this just became the standard in professional events.

[david.c.w]

I bet travel time was a big thing as well back in the day.  Those playing on Sunday probably had to catch a train sometime on Monday, then another train or a bus.  Probably could not do a practice round or an appearance until Tuesday afternoon at the latest.  Give them a day off and you start on Thursday as a best case.

[ChipNRun]

And, the "regular tour pros" didn't play in every event. At each tournament site, you would have a much higher concentration of local pros and amateurs than today.

 

In the 1960s, the increasing availability of airline flights at a lower cost started to change this.

 

An interesting study would be to get the PGA Tour event newspaper tee time sheets for Thursdays from, say, 1947, 1957 and 1967. Compare the player status mix (% of regular tour pros) to total purse and winner's take for each event.

 

I suspect the "regular tour pro" percentage and incremental rise in prize $$ figures would be positively correlated.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by ChipNRun
Rewrite sentence.

[Phreddy]

39 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

I bet travel time was a big thing as well back in the day.  Those playing on Sunday probably had to catch a train sometime on Monday, then another train or a bus.  Probably could not do a practice round or an appearance until Tuesday afternoon at the latest.  Give them a day off and you start on Thursday as a best case.

Back in the Hogan, Snead & Nelson era many tournaments were 72 holes, playing 36 on Saturday and 36 on Sunday with travel being a key consideration.

[Jc0]

To me it makes sense from just a build up based on skill level. Local qualifiers are usually 1 day. City championships, club championships are usually 2. Then high level things like state tournaments are usually 3 or 4 days. Considering pros are the top of the game, their tournaments would trend towards the top end, four days. No different then how baseball goes from 6 to 7 to 9 innings or basketball goes from 32 to 40 to 48 minutes as you move up in level. 

 

[TallGuy90]

It more then likely about advertising dollars making sense. LIV doesn’t need to make a Positive ROI. 

[MtlJeff]

22 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Las Vegas and the Hope were 90 hole tournaments for many years, so yes it does exist.  

 

While I'm agnostic on 54 vs 72 holes as a standard, it really seems like the argument being made currently is more about "this is how we've always done it", and some serious gatekeeping, rather than anyone making a real good argument for it.

 

 

 

I agree with this.

 

I would bet was the real reason is what was posted above, that 4 just seemed to be the sweet spot to allow for some travel. They've been using 4 rounds since when people traveled by boat or train

 

4 seems fine to me. Mathematically the argument is correct that more rounds will produce a more "accurate" result (ie the better player will win). If the goal is just to identify the best player period--The whole season should be 1 tournament of like 100 rounds.

 

I don't have a problem with 3 either. Though you could argue 3 rounds would only make parity worse. And parity is usually bad for a sport (Football being the lone exception it seems)

[golfortennis]

20 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I agree with this.

 

I would bet was the real reason is what was posted above, that 4 just seemed to be the sweet spot to allow for some travel. They've been using 4 rounds since when people traveled by boat or train

 

4 seems fine to me. Mathematically the argument is correct that more rounds will produce a more "accurate" result (ie the better player will win). If the goal is just to identify the best player period--The whole season should be 1 tournament of like 100 rounds.

 

I don't have a problem with 3 either. Though you could argue 3 rounds would only make parity worse. And parity is usually bad for a sport (Football being the lone exception it seems)

 

I get the argument if you're going to have a cut.  You'd never get guys to show up if you cut after 1 round, so you basically need to guarantee two rounds.  There is some symmetry, I guess, to playing two more rounds after that. 

 

It would appear that business reasons are as much or a bigger factor than golf reasons.  Which isn't a bad thing, just don't say it's because of B when it's more because of A.

 

[naval2006]

22 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

 

 

While I'm agnostic on 54 vs 72 holes as a standard, it really seems like the argument being made currently is more about "this is how we've always done it", and some serious gatekeeping, rather than anyone making a real good argument for it.

 

 

Hard to tell why in the 1890's they went from 36 holes to 72 apart from the fact that it is a more fair way to find a winner.  They also used to cramp 72 holes in two days, Friday and Saturday, so that most pros could be back at their clubs to teach lessons on Sunday, so the four days to allow travelling, and Monday qualifying and the pro-am came up way later.  Definitely the TV played a great role in the 18 holes in a day format.  Even the US Open finally gave up on the Monday 18 hole match in case of a tie for the lead after regulation.  

[RayGorman]

Before the recent changes in how guys get to the tour, the finals at Q-School were 6 rounds. And that was AFTER all the qualifying to get to that point. I guess THAT really separated the wheat from the chaff. I remember guys saying that that experience was tougher than any tournament they played in later on.

Edited August 9, 2022 by RayGorman

[DaddySwagMaster]

On 8/7/2022 at 9:01 PM, BrendanW said:

My question is why is the PGA and most other tours four rounds? Why not five, or six rounds, if more rounds means better separation of good from average players? Was four an arbitrary number that someone thought was good, or is there some science behind it? Is it purely commercial for TV reasons? Historical?

 

 

Google it.  Let us know what you find.

[Dutch1008]

I think 4 just happens to be a goldilocks situation. 

 

5 rounds would be unbearable.

Mon - Travel

Tue - Prep

Wed - Sun - Play

Mon - Travel again

 

A player would effectively have zero days off and would lead to more players skipping more tournaments. 

 

Regarding 3 or 4, I think it depends on if there is a cut or not. At a no cut, limited field, WGC event, 3 rounds probably enough. If you want to have a cut, I think 4 rounds and 36 hole cut is perfect. A 2 round cut gives a player the chance to bounce back after a bad day. Two more rounds on the weekend, provides the opportunity for someone to get hot and storm from behind.    

 

[gvogel]

In 1892 the Open Championship when from 36 to 72 holes.  In 1898 the US Open went from 36 to 72 holes.  That has been the tournament standard ever since.

[Golferpaul]

On 8/8/2022 at 9:11 AM, randytrevor said:

Only like 40% of 54-hole leaders go on to win, so that right there is an argument for keeping 4-rounds.

   

I think it's more an argument to play as many rounds as possible.

 

It's all about the math and it's pretty simple.  The longer you play, the more likely the winner will be the one playing best.

[Golferpaul]

54 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

I think 4 just happens to be a goldilocks situation. 

 

5 rounds would be unbearable.

Mon - Travel

Tue - Prep

Wed - Sun - Play

Mon - Travel again

 

A player would effectively have zero days off and would lead to more players skipping more tournaments. 

 

 

 

You are assuming the events would need to be the same days every week.  But that's not true.  They could play an eight-round tournament every other week with six days off between tournaments.

[Golferpaul]

6 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

 

If the goal is just to identify the best player period--The whole season should be 1 tournament of like 100 rounds.

Like baseball and basketball.

[KennyP]

Can't be sure but I think it's probably just an evolution from when tournaments were over weekends playing 36 holes per day, Saturday & Sunday. Remember most competitors would have paid jobs, and annual leave didn't exist back then.

When full-time professionals became the norm, the 72 holes were just stretched across four days rather than two.

[tiderider]

why 18 holes? 

 

why 14 clubs? 

 

why 4.25 inches for the diameter of the hole? 

 

 

[Hankshank]

72 hole tournaments do provide perfect pleasure for me, come Thursday, the leaderboards starts updating, one can have a quick look at the players and the course. Friday, the cut, Saturday moving day and Sunday the finale. And then a three day rest. I like it and I am one of the customers.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Hankshank

[getitdaily]

It's centered around the principle of the cut. 

 

Get big fields and give guys a chance to make a check. Then get 2 more rounds to determine the champ.

[deathbymuffin]

Research has shown that four days/week is the perfect amount of time to be away from your wife and kids for peak mental health.