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Playing 9 with my wife last night.  Get to hole 6, which has a forced carry over the marsh and then doglegs rights about 90*.  The group in front of us is a foursome that is playing 2 man scrambles.  We wait on the tee for the group to get across the marsh, then go back and pick up balls, then disappear to the right.  I line up my tee shot and take my swing.  Hit a good shot.  Before we get to the tees for my wife, one of the carts come back and the guys get out and hit from where my ball went.  I tell my wife, they hit my ball.  She says no, that is just the story you are telling yourself.  Well, we get up to where my ball should be, no ball in sight.  Because the hole has a 90* dogleg right, the ball can go long and into a penalty area.  But I was playing the tips and that would be an insanely long drive for me.  I can't guarantee that the group in front of me hit my ball, but I'm pretty sure.  But I also can't guarantee that I went into the penalty area, so I go back and hit a second ball.  On the next tee, I walk up and ask the guys if they hit my ball.  I show them the other ball I am playing with the markings.  One guy says I am playing that ball, but I don't have those markings, but I already hit so let me go check.  After they all teed off he comes back with my ball...

 

Kudos to the guy for returning my ball, but I think I am just screwed for the score on the previous hole.  After the guy gave me my ball back, my wife turns to me and says, "sometimes the story we tell ourselves is true".  We both had a good laugh.  

In the bag

Driver: Taylormade Sim2 Max 9*

4w: Callaway Mavrik Sub Zero

Hybrid:  Apex 19 3h 20*

Hybrid:  Apex 19 4h 23*

Irons: Callaway Apex CF 19 5i-AW

W1: Vokey SM7 54* S

W2: Vokey SM8 60* L

Putter: Swag Handsome Too

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1 hour ago, trilerian said:

Playing 9 with my wife last night.  Get to hole 6, which has a forced carry over the marsh and then doglegs rights about 90*.  The group in front of us is a foursome that is playing 2 man scrambles.  We wait on the tee for the group to get across the marsh, then go back and pick up balls, then disappear to the right.  I line up my tee shot and take my swing.  Hit a good shot.  Before we get to the tees for my wife, one of the carts come back and the guys get out and hit from where my ball went.  I tell my wife, they hit my ball.  She says no, that is just the story you are telling yourself.  Well, we get up to where my ball should be, no ball in sight.  Because the hole has a 90* dogleg right, the ball can go long and into a penalty area.  But I was playing the tips and that would be an insanely long drive for me.  I can't guarantee that the group in front of me hit my ball, but I'm pretty sure.  But I also can't guarantee that I went into the penalty area, so I go back and hit a second ball.  On the next tee, I walk up and ask the guys if they hit my ball.  I show them the other ball I am playing with the markings.  One guy says I am playing that ball, but I don't have those markings, but I already hit so let me go check.  After they all teed off he comes back with my ball...

 

Kudos to the guy for returning my ball, but I think I am just screwed for the score on the previous hole.  After the guy gave me my ball back, my wife turns to me and says, "sometimes the story we tell ourselves is true".  We both had a good laugh.  

When you couldn't find your ball in the fairway, you just might have had "Knowledge or Virtual Certainty (KVC)" that your ball was moved by an Outside Influence.  If so, your correct course of action would be to replace the ball (or another if the original can't be obtained quickly) on its stop, estimate if its not known.  But remember, when assessing KVC its what you know when your search time is done, not what you find out later.  

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18 minutes ago, pingfool said:

Your wife needed to confirm KVC in order for you to drop under that premise. 

Can you point to a Rule that says this?  In most things, its up to the player to make the final determination, taking into account all reasonable available information.

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Rule 26-1 covers this

 

My comment above is based upon the only witness not agreeing with kvc where ball was

If you play by yourself you are the only judge.

 

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Here is the problem with KVC.  The landing zone is obscured by bushes so you can't actually see the ball roll to a stop.  I went straight over them... I can only tell you from experience where the ball would end up.  Like I said, I was pretty sure the group ahead of me played my ball, but I could not be certain of that.  There were three possibilities;

 

1, Group ahead hit my ball.

2, I nuked a tee shot beyond my abilities and ended up in the PA.

3, The ball was lost in the rough between the fairway and the PA.

 

As to my wife, she had no idea where the ball went.  She asked after I hit it whether or not it was good.  I said it was a good tee shot.  Her response to me saying another player hit my ball was more due to her not believing that was likely to begin with.  I mean how often is it we see other players go near our golf balls and hit and we think, oh great, only to find our ball when we get up there?  All the time, right... 

 

Anyway, due to the three possibilities I came to the conclusion that I couldn't have KVC of the group ahead hitting my ball or being in the PA, so my only choice was a re tee.  

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In the bag

Driver: Taylormade Sim2 Max 9*

4w: Callaway Mavrik Sub Zero

Hybrid:  Apex 19 3h 20*

Hybrid:  Apex 19 4h 23*

Irons: Callaway Apex CF 19 5i-AW

W1: Vokey SM7 54* S

W2: Vokey SM8 60* L

Putter: Swag Handsome Too

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You followed the rules of golf. The time to claim KVC was when you  didn’t find your ball and consensus of the group was somebody picked up your ball.

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13 minutes ago, pingfool said:

Rule 26-1 covers this

 

My comment above is based upon the only witness not agreeing with kvc where ball was

If you play by yourself you are the only judge.

Rule 26-1 has not been in effect for more than 42 months now, and even in 2018 applied to a ball  in a Water Hazard.  Rule 18-1 applied to a ball moved by an outside agency, 27-1 applies to a Lost Ball.  At that time, the term "known or virtually certain" was used, but not specifically defined.  Rule 9.6, along with the Definition of "Known or Virtually Certain" is operative these days.  In particular, the Definition provides a bit more guidance than was available before.  There's no question the other player's input should be considered, and a dissenting view could be enough to deny KVC, but its still the Player's responsibility to make the determination.

8 minutes ago, trilerian said:

Anyway, due to the three possibilities I came to the conclusion that I couldn't have KVC of the group ahead hitting my ball or being in the PA, so my only choice was a re tee.  

I agree with @pingfool on this, you did the right thing under the rules.

 

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1 hour ago, Colin L said:

Unfortunately, you don't seem yourself to be following the current Rules of Golf which don 't have a 26-1.   Time to get a copy of the 2019 Rules. perhaps?  🤨 


my apologies for not memorizing the new rule 9

glad you have found a way to be useful

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10 minutes ago, pingfool said:


my apologies for not memorizing the new rule 9

glad you have found a way to be useful

There's no need to apologise to me.  

Equally, there's no need to be offensive.

And this is meant to be helpful, nothing more.  You'll be better looking at the Definition of Know or Virtually Certain than Rule 9:

https://www.randa.org/rog/definitions#definition-K

 

 

 

Edited by Colin L
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18 minutes ago, Colin L said:

There's no need to apologise to me.  

Equally, there's no need to be offensive.

And this is meant to be helpful, nothing more.  You'll be better looking at the Definition of Know or Virtually Certain than Rule 9:

https://www.randa.org/rog/definitions#definition-K

 

 

 

I just read it.  Those rules are so harsh. I'm not bashing the rule, just saying it is painful reading it. 

In the bag

Driver: Taylormade Sim2 Max 9*

4w: Callaway Mavrik Sub Zero

Hybrid:  Apex 19 3h 20*

Hybrid:  Apex 19 4h 23*

Irons: Callaway Apex CF 19 5i-AW

W1: Vokey SM7 54* S

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Putter: Swag Handsome Too

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22 minutes ago, Colin L said:

There's no need to apologise to me.  

Equally, there's no need to be offensive.

And this is meant to be helpful, nothing more.  You'll be better looking at the Definition of Know or Virtually Certain than Rule 9:

https://www.randa.org/rog/definitions#definition-K

I'm with you, if people are trying to learn from these threads, its important to cite the correct (current) rules.

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1 hour ago, trilerian said:

I just read it.  Those rules are so harsh. I'm not bashing the rule, just saying it is painful reading it. 


yes. This sub forum is known to be painful. 
some take pleasure in others pain, unfortunately 

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2 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

There must be something going around about people coming backwards and hitting someone elses ball. Its happened a couple times at our course lately. 

 

This rule and people hitting other balls causes so much anguish and confrontation at my home course. Lots of tree-lined fairways with holes in opposite directions. Doesn't help that roughly 99.984% of players use Titleist balls.

 

You can hit your ball into the trees near someone in the same trees playing a different hole and the ball simply disappears. You cannot be certain enough that the other guy played your ball and you didn't take a crazy bounce off a tree. Lots of false accusations get slung around, but equally I'm pretty sure lots of pretty hit the same brand ball and play dumb.

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This is happening on the same hole being played... Guys going well out of range then oddly coming back and hitting the wrong ball. We borrow other fairways all the time at our course for strategic reasons and hitting someone else's ball rarely happens. 

Edited by SNIPERBBB

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

This is happening on the same hole being played... Guys going well out of range then oddly coming back and hitting the wrong ball. We borrow other fairways all the time at our course for strategic reasons and hitting someone else's ball rarely happens. 


The real question is how does the scramble team who hit my ball score the hole?

 

But yeah, I wonder if this is a new thing everywhere. I have been seeing this behavior quite a bit lately, not necessarily hitting the wrong ball but the back tracking.

Edited by trilerian

In the bag

Driver: Taylormade Sim2 Max 9*

4w: Callaway Mavrik Sub Zero

Hybrid:  Apex 19 3h 20*

Hybrid:  Apex 19 4h 23*

Irons: Callaway Apex CF 19 5i-AW

W1: Vokey SM7 54* S

W2: Vokey SM8 60* L

Putter: Swag Handsome Too

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37 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

This rule and people hitting other balls causes so much anguish and confrontation at my home course. Lots of tree-lined fairways with holes in opposite directions. Doesn't help that roughly 99.984% of players use Titleist balls.

 

This is one reason, I never get why people don't clearly mark their ball. It is not just for you to be identify your ball, but it helps others know it is not theirs. 

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11 minutes ago, trilerian said:


The real question is how does the scramble team who hit my ball score the hole?

 

But yeah, I wonder if this is a new thing everywhere. I have been seeing this behavior quite a bit lately, not necessarily hitting the wrong ball but the back tracking.

If it was match play disregarding the scramble part, playing a wrong ball is loss of the hole. 

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12 hours ago, trilerian said:

On the next tee, I walk up and ask the guys if they hit my ball.  I show them the other ball I am playing with the markings.  One guy says I am playing that ball, but I don't have those markings, but I already hit so let me go check.  After they all teed off he comes back with my ball...

 

 

... Had that happen when I pulled a ball into the left rough a couple weeks ago. I play the Mafli Tour with very distinctive markings and while walking too my ball I see this guy hit it without another ball near it. I followed him down his fairway and asked if he accidentally hit my Maxfli and he replied he was also playing a Maxfli so he had to look. Holds it up and of course the markings are visible and it turns out he was playing a Maxfli soft-something but doesn't have markings on his ball. His partner said none of us saw exactly where it went and we thought he got lucky when we saw the Maxfli. Then he asked me if I wanted it back?!? I was pretty dumbfounded and just said yes please. Couldn't decide of it was ignorance or stupidity.  


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Just now, 2bGood said:

 

This is one reason, I never get why people don't clearly mark their ball. It is not just for you to be identify your ball, but it helps others know it is not theirs. 

Thing is, even some people do mark their ball, they wont look close enough to actually ID it if its in the general area of where they thought their ball should be and the rest of the group's balls aren't also in the area 

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Just now, SNIPERBBB said:

Thing is, even some people do mark their ball, they wont look close enough to actually ID it if its in the general area of where they thought their ball should be and the rest of the group's balls aren't also in the area 

Yes, true, but it helps all the same and barely takes any extra effort. 

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Due to all the trouble in the area, and the fact you couldn’t see your ball land, I don’t think you had KVC that they hit your ball. I’d say 80% of the time they did. Maybe even 90%. KVC is 95%. You proceeded correctly. 
 

In the future though, drive up to them right away and ask if they have hit your ball. If they say “No”, you’re in the same boat if you hadn’t asked. If they don’t know if they did or not, add that into your KVC percentage. It sounds like you know the course really well. If your ball is “always” in play on that line, and the group ahead can’t give you a definitive “no we didn’t hit your ball” answer, then I’d happily apply KVC and take a free sub. 
 

But one has to ask. 

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1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

Yes, true, but it helps all the same and barely takes any extra effort. 

Probably should clarify my comment... there's people, the ones that dont mark balls, that will not look to ID their ball. Don't think I've ever see someone that marks their ball fail to look at their ball they're about to hit. 

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23 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Probably should clarify my comment... there's people, the ones that dont mark balls, that will not look to ID their ball. Don't think I've ever see someone that marks their ball fail to look at their ball they're about to hit. 

I have found allot of people that don't mark their ball will not hit a ball that has clear markings. 

 

Of course, there is plenty of people that are clueless. I know more than a few hackers that just play what ever balls they find and they have all sorts of random markings, and lose or change balls enough they have no clue what they are playing. 😀

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8 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

This rule and people hitting other balls causes so much anguish and confrontation at my home course. Lots of tree-lined fairways with holes in opposite directions. Doesn't help that roughly 99.984% of players use Titleist balls.

 

You can hit your ball into the trees near someone in the same trees playing a different hole and the ball simply disappears. You cannot be certain enough that the other guy played your ball and you didn't take a crazy bounce off a tree. Lots of false accusations get slung around, but equally I'm pretty sure lots of pretty hit the same brand ball and play dumb.

Easy fix is extensive application of the Sharpie.

 

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