US Amateur Discussion

[sui generis]

22 minutes ago, munichop said:

the rule

 

There isn't any "the rule." Each competition publishes (or doesn't publish) it's pace of play policy. Most often the policy says something to the effect that 1) the group must be out of position, and 2) the group is over its Raguzzi time, and 3) warnings will be given, and 4) individual players are subject to timing (often 40 seconds or some variation thereof.)

 

That said, many tournament organizers are reluctant to live up to their policy. I've been a referee for some time and my experience is that junior golf does a good job, college golf makes no effort. The USGA when it's not on TV works hard at pace of play, but all TV golf only cares about the 6 o'clock news.

[munichop]

25 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

There isn't any "the rule." Each competition publishes (or doesn't publish) it's pace of play policy. Most often the policy says something to the effect that 1) the group must be out of position, and 2) the group is over its Raguzzi time, and 3) warnings will be given, and 4) individual players are subject to timing (often 40 seconds or some variation thereof.)

 

That said, many tournament organizers are reluctant to live up to their policy. I've been a referee for some time and my experience is that junior golf does a good job, college golf makes no effort. The USGA when it's not on TV works hard at pace of play, but all TV golf only cares about the 6 o'clock news.

The fact that it is a policy means it is arbitrary when it is applied and only undermines the integrity of the competition. Typical USGA but no surprise really. Just creates more opportunities for gamesmanship.

[sui generis]

5 minutes ago, munichop said:

The fact that it is a policy means it is arbitrary when it is applied and only undermines the integrity of the competition. Typical USGA but no surprise really. Just creates more opportunities for gamesmanship.

 

What "policy" achieves is that it allows the committee to tailor its pace of play to the skill level of the field, the course set up, the course conditions, the weather, et al.

 

In your experience of playing USGA events, how did the pace of play and the enforcement of their policy work for you? Was it stroke play and/or match play?

[lowndes]

42 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Oh absolutely.  I kid the tigers.  I certainly support Dabos kids when they play Georgia ! 😂

I figured as much.  Good natured ribbing between both schools as there is with most rivalries.  Great people and friends at both.  

[lowndes]

46 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Oh absolutely.  I kid the tigers.  I certainly support Dabos kids when they play Georgia ! 😂

Duplicate.  

Edited August 21, 2022 by lowndes

[munichop]

8 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

What "policy" achieves is that it allows the committee to tailor its pace of play to the skill level of the field, the course set up, the course conditions, the weather, et al.

 

In your experience of playing USGA events, how did the pace of play and the enforcement of their policy work for you? Was it stroke play and/or match play?

I never had issues with the pace of play but I am not a snail and was not paired with any. It becomes an issue when another competitor abuses the policy to disrupt the other competitors.  By the time a competition reaches tv it is usually obvious for those watching that the policy is not regularly enforced. Let’s face it, without a time clock it won’t change and slow players can always get an advantage if they choose.

[bladehunter]

4 minutes ago, lowndes said:

I figured as much.  Good natured ribbing between both schools as there is with most rivalries.  Great people and friends at both.  

Oh yea. True story. Coming up our drive at the farm we have two 7 foot sheet metal roosters.    My wife’s best friends are a couple who met at Clemson.  My wife went to usc. She’s a bigger football fan than I am.  And the husband of her friend is literally wearing Orange everytime you see him.   He pulls up after she bought these roosters , and says “ they have any life sized tigers where you bought those chickens “?    She straight faced answered “ nobody that graduated Clemson can afford a life sized sheet metal tiger so they didn’t make any “.      Keep in mind. We’re on a working farm , and are not wealthy.  This is the level of local ribbing.   And heaven help us all when it’s game day.  It’s rough 

[sui generis]

1 minute ago, munichop said:

It becomes an issue when another competitor abuses the policy to disrupt the other competitors.

 

I've not seen that behavior either in stroke play or match play. But, were a player to approach me and suggest that he or she was being gamed, I would pay attention. That said, if the group was in position and on or ahead of the Raguzzi time, I would have a hard time doing much except sticking with the group for a few more holes..

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, munichop said:

The fact that it is a policy means it is arbitrary when it is applied and only undermines the integrity of the competition. Typical USGA but no surprise really. Just creates more opportunities for gamesmanship.

I thought the whole purpose of match play was for the less capable player to find a way to beat the more capable player.  One often used tactic is gamesmanship.

[North Texas]

13 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I thought the whole purpose of match play was for the less capable player to find a way to beat the more capable player.  One often used tactic is gamesmanship.

 

The only time I ever used gamemanship in a match, it just didn't feel right. I had to go home and take a shower to get the stink and slime off. Never again. 

[jonsnow]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Oh absolutely.  I kid the tigers.  I certainly support Dabos kids when they play Georgia ! 😂

You cut me, blade. You cut me real deep.

Edited August 22, 2022 by jonsnow

[lowndes]

Was the match today even that slow?  They played 36 holes with I think an hour break for lunch in a little under 10 hours.  Seems like about 4:30 hours per 18.  Not fast but not slow for this type of event.  I watched it and other than not liking Sam’s over the ball routine nothing seemed slow (and again I don’t think Sam was any slower than the other guy).

[North Texas]

16 minutes ago, lowndes said:

Was the match today even that slow?  They played 36 holes with I think an hour break for lunch in a little under 10 hours.  Seems like about 4:30 hours per 18.  Not fast but not slow for this type of event.  I watched it and other than not liking Sam’s over the ball routine nothing seemed slow (and again I don’t think Sam was any slower than the other guy).

 

4:30 is definitely on the slow side for 2 guys playing a match. They both talked way too much over shots. 

[ThinkingPlus]

28 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

The only time I ever used gamemanship in a match, it just didn't feel right. I had to go home and take a shower to get the stink and slime off. Never again. 

I hate it as well.  Would never, ever do it and do my best to ignore it when someone tries it on me.  Another reason I dislike match play.

[lowndes]

3 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

4:30 is definitely on the slow side for 2 guys playing a match. They both talked way too much over shots. 

I tend to agree but isn’t that the pace of play for most competitive golf?  Doesn’t seem out of the ordinary at all. Pretty much always seems to take 4:15 -4:45 for a twosome to play 18.

[sui generis]

16 minutes ago, North Texas said:

4:30 is definitely on the slow side for 2 guys playing a match.

 

Their 36 hole match started on time, went the distance and finished 6 minutes before the 6 o'clock news. 

[MattyO1984]

Jumping into this one pretty late on - I had the BMW Championship on the TV last night with the Am final on my iPad. When you have two guys out there playing the relative lack of golf shots is always going to make things seem like they are taking much longer but at times last night it did feel like continental drift moved quicker that the Am final. 

[iBanesto]

Congratulations to Joey Fatone on his US Amateur win.

 

It was a shame Carr followed Bennett's OB 2nd shot on the 31st hole with his own. He just needed to flare it out right.

 

Not saying he would have won anyway but it may have turned the momentum.

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by iBanesto

[naval2006]

Good match yesterday, thrilling to the last hole.  Too bad Carr didn’t lay up on the par five after Bennett’s 3 wood OB. A strange rookie mistake at that level. 

[pcmancini]

What do you guys in the know think about whether Bennett's game is pro-ready?  He does not seem to have the distance or the ball height the pros have.

[alittleoverpar]

On 8/19/2022 at 8:38 PM, So_Cal said:

First off I’m super impressed by Ridgewood.  It’s not a course I knew much about.  Tillie combined with Hanse is always a great combo.  The ground staff have it it great shape for the competition.  Dare I say it’s more interesting on TV than Bethpage?  Love the 12th hole.  

Agree 100%, Ridgewood is some golf course.  

 

I always love watching the US Amateur.  Lot's of good golf!

[iBanesto]

5 minutes ago, pcmancini said:

What do you guys in the know think about whether Bennett's game is pro-ready?  He does not seem to have the distance or the ball height the pros have.

 

Bennett's game is not there yet.

 

He does appear relatively "short" compared to Carr, however, Carr does have 180 mile ball speed though.

 

I assume Bennett's iron game has to be Morikawa level if he wants to compete well on tour.

 

 

[snagy2000]

12 minutes ago, pcmancini said:

What do you guys in the know think about whether Bennett's game is pro-ready?  He does not seem to have the distance or the ball height the pros have.

I wouldn't pull a "Knost" and pass on the Masters invite to turn Pro thinking he'll qualify again if I were him. He's a great ballstriker and will do OK on courses where distance isn't a premium. Needs to fine tune his putting a bit to get the left pull out. Match could have been over way earlier if not for 3 or 4 lefty misses. Hoping he makes it on tour so we can see how it plays out for him. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by snagy2000

[naval2006]

12 minutes ago, pcmancini said:

What do you guys in the know think about whether Bennett's game is pro-ready?  He does not seem to have the distance or the ball height the pros have.

I don't follow these guys.  But I notice they all have a game on the making that almost always mature when they get to the PGA Tour.  It's not a case of "if" but of "when".  I guess in a couple of years you won't see Bennett's trail foot position in the finish anymore.  

[dalehead]

15 hours ago, lowndes said:

This - he actually isn’t a very slower golfer.  It’s just he’s over the ball longer than most and his waggles are tough to watch.  He’s usually a pretty quick decision maker though.

I have the final match recorded and just for fun I timed Bennet on a tee shot. From the time he started stepping into his address to the time the ball was in the air was 25 seconds.

[bladehunter]

13 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I thought the whole purpose of match play was for the less capable player to find a way to beat the more capable player.  One often used tactic is gamesmanship.

Exactly. It’s not about slow play. But. When you recognize that you’re facing a speedster who relies on a fast rhythm.  You are smart to downshift , and analyze   carefully inside your allotted time. 
 

im a player who pulls the trigger fast.  But . I recognized this very early on when an old timer fast played me in a match.  That’s a tactic just the same.  He walked ahead as I was the longest hitter off each Tee. He’d walk ahead to the green and mark my ball for me , so he could play before I got there. I could see him. But I wasn’t greenside yet.  We both were walking.  After the 4th straight hole of this , I yelled from the fairway “ don’t touch my ball again “ and I mentally downshifted.  He was up 4 holes .  I ground down and took him to 18.  Where he beat me.   Afterwards he laughed and said “ good game “.   He  knew that I knew.  And I knew that he knew. I think he appreciated that I saw him.  And I appreciated the lesson.  
 

being a player who can play at both ends of the legal speed , is a skill.  And it’s needed in any formal play , because you’ll always get paired with randoms  who you need to acclimate to.    
 

the guy who stands around griping about pace , loses.  Always.  That’s being said. My favorite pairings are with other fast players playing well.  Drafting off good play is also a thing.  I’d much rather lose playing good than win in some crap show match where nobody can find the hole. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by bladehunter

[alittleoverpar]

I play fast, but it doesn't bother me if I'm playing with a slow player.  I just think about something else while they are doing their thing and focus on my task when it's my turn.  Not a big deal.

 

[bladehunter]

42 minutes ago, iBanesto said:

 

Bennett's game is not there yet.

 

He does appear relatively "short" compared to Carr, however, Carr does have 180 mile ball speed though.

 

I assume Bennett's iron game has to be Morikawa level if he wants to compete well on tour.

 

 

Loll it’s funny and part of me sees what you’re saying.  But. Who won?    That was a pretty big course.  Not smaller than anything on tour I can think of.  

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, alittleoverpar said:

I play fast, but it doesn't bother me if I'm playing with a slow player.  I just think about something else while they are doing their thing and focus on my task when it's my turn.  Not a big deal.

 

Yes.  Like Jack said. You only focus on the game when it’s your turn. He said that trying to focus for 4 plus hours was impossible. I agree.  You zone out to anywhere else in between.   I have a habit of watching nature on the course. Bugs birds fish - trees. Anything.  

[Krt22]

12 hours ago, lowndes said:

I tend to agree but isn’t that the pace of play for most competitive golf?  Doesn’t seem out of the ordinary at all. Pretty much always seems to take 4:15 -4:45 for a twosome to play 18.

That is the problem. 

 

Some of the US Women's am matches went almost 5hrs. For a single match that is absolutely absurd and as a viewer tough to swallow since there isn't much other golf to cut away from. In PGA coverage it's less apparent until the final sunday, final group when there isn't much else golf to cut away from.