Have Golf Simulator bars come to your area yet?

[double_d]

On 9/12/2022 at 1:06 PM, me05501 said:

 

The bar is going for a hybrid public/private model. They offer memberships that run about $1200/year or $140/month if you want to pay that way. Members have exclusive access to the bays all day on Tues/Wed every week. I assume they also get early access to booking windows for other days. Of course their bay rental fees are included in the membership. 

 

The public can also rent bays. Peak pricing is $40/hour with off-peak at $30/hour and a weekday lunch special of $20/hour. 

 

 

 

 

If a membership is $1,200 and it fully includes all hourly bay rates, at $40 an hour normal bay rental, you only need to use it 30 hours a year to get your money's worth. Seems like a bargain unless I am really missing something.

[me05501]

3 minutes ago, double_d said:

 

 

If a membership is $1,200 and it fully includes all hourly bay rates, at $40 an hour normal bay rental, you only need to use it 30 hours a year to get your money's worth. Seems like a bargain unless I am really missing something.

 

Right. If you compare it to their most expensive rate it does seem reasonable. If someone isn't trying to use it 2-3 hours each month they're probably not a membership candidate in any case. 

 

They reserve Tuesdays and Wednesdays for members only. I assume they give members first shot at prime time slots too. I haven't looked into it that closely. 

 

[Ironman_32]

I live in a city adjacent to NYC. Currently we have one company that has indoor simulators that is more funplex style (simulators, pool, table tennis, gaming) and another simulator opening that will be more restaurant/bar style. We will see if the area can support two of these. 

 

Not to put on my Shark Tank hat and be negative, but business wise, I don't see it working. As everyone above has said, some open and close, eventually you will run out of one-time customers, and there will not be enough repeat business. Low barriers to entry which isn't great,  the actual product itself isn't phenomenal, and I think there is a large percentage of people who play outside golf who won't go inside. It can definitely get used for football Sundays, but its still too gimmicky. I know golfers in luxury apartments who have these and don't use them, so I don't think they will pay once or multiple times to go to a location for it. Essentially, its inside Topgolf with probably similar margins but a lot less scale. I can always be wrong though, so who knows. 

[Curmudg3on]

2 hours ago, Ironman_32 said:

I live in a city adjacent to NYC. Currently we have one company that has indoor simulators that is more funplex style (simulators, pool, table tennis, gaming) and another simulator opening that will be more restaurant/bar style. We will see if the area can support two of these. 

 

Not to put on my Shark Tank hat and be negative, but business wise, I don't see it working. As everyone above has said, some open and close, eventually you will run out of one-time customers, and there will not be enough repeat business. Low barriers to entry which isn't great,  the actual product itself isn't phenomenal, and I think there is a large percentage of people who play outside golf who won't go inside. It can definitely get used for football Sundays, but its still too gimmicky. I know golfers in luxury apartments who have these and don't use them, so I don't think they will pay once or multiple times to go to a location for it. Essentially, its inside Topgolf with probably similar margins but a lot less scale. I can always be wrong though, so who knows. 

 

It's all about location.

[me05501]

2 hours ago, Ironman_32 said:

I live in a city adjacent to NYC. Currently we have one company that has indoor simulators that is more funplex style (simulators, pool, table tennis, gaming) and another simulator opening that will be more restaurant/bar style. We will see if the area can support two of these. 

 

Not to put on my Shark Tank hat and be negative, but business wise, I don't see it working. As everyone above has said, some open and close, eventually you will run out of one-time customers, and there will not be enough repeat business. Low barriers to entry which isn't great,  the actual product itself isn't phenomenal, and I think there is a large percentage of people who play outside golf who won't go inside. It can definitely get used for football Sundays, but its still too gimmicky. I know golfers in luxury apartments who have these and don't use them, so I don't think they will pay once or multiple times to go to a location for it. Essentially, its inside Topgolf with probably similar margins but a lot less scale. I can always be wrong though, so who knows. 

 

19 minutes ago, DennyJones said:

 

It's all about location.

 

I agree with both of you. 

 

In this case I see two advantages for the owner:

 

One, he was able to find a location in a vibrant area where a lot of young people want to live and socialize. It also happens to be an area without a lot of good options for non-club golfers to practice. 

Two, the space he selected is just the right size for five spacious bays, but it could also operate with 2 or 3 or 4 just as easily. It's a big open area with a high ceiling and concrete floors. If the demand for sim golf wanes he has the option to reduce the number of bays and replace a couple of them with dining tables, pool, Golden Tee or other diversions. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by me05501

[Curmudg3on]

14 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

 

I agree with both of you. 

 

In this case I see two advantages for the owner:

 

One, he was able to find a location in a vibrant area where a lot of young people want to live and socialize. It also happens to be an area without a lot of good options for non-club golfers to practice. 

Two, the space he selected is just the right size for five spacious bays, but it could also operate with 2 or 3 or 4 just as easily. It's a big open area with a high ceiling and concrete floors. If the demand for sim golf wanes he has the option to reduce the number of bays and replace a couple of them with dining tables, pool, Golden Tee or other diversions. 

 

The one by me that is thriving for three years must be the anomaly.   It is in an rural area with the closest town of 5,000K about 4 miles away.  The pro shop has been recently upgraded and is beautiful.   The dining room holds about 40+ tables and they have installed a Full Swing Virtual Green.   

 

From October thru April, the demand requires reservations from 9am to 9pm.

 

It is so popular that three other golf courses with 12 miles of my house are installing simulators. 

[MattM97]

In Canada as well and lately a lot of indoor places have been popping up like wild fire which is good. There are a few bar/restaurants style ones but they're more expensive cause of staff and what not. But there are a ton and i mean ton of 24hr automated ones which are cheaper and they use various simulators like Trackman, E6 Connect, GC Hawk, etc which I'm fine with just want to hit some balls half the time and have some fun on a simulated round in the dead of winter. 

 

There are a few high end spots that use the Golfzon system with the tilting platform and different surfaces for where your ball lands, I want to try one of those this winter if I can. 

[Ironman_32]

2 hours ago, me05501 said:

 

 

I agree with both of you. 

 

In this case I see two advantages for the owner:

 

One, he was able to find a location in a vibrant area where a lot of young people want to live and socialize. It also happens to be an area without a lot of good options for non-club golfers to practice. 

Two, the space he selected is just the right size for five spacious bays, but it could also operate with 2 or 3 or 4 just as easily. It's a big open area with a high ceiling and concrete floors. If the demand for sim golf wanes he has the option to reduce the number of bays and replace a couple of them with dining tables, pool, Golden Tee or other diversions. 

Just back of the envelope, if you average 25 people per day, at $30 average per person, thats $750 per day; say 6 days a week, $4,500 per week, $18,000 per month, $216,000 per year. Call it even at $225,000 per year. 

 

Gross $225,000, say expenses are $100,000 for the year ( $5K a month in rent, $60,000 total in rent, another $40K in expenses), that leaves $125,000. Say 40% taxes, that leaves $75,000. 

 

Those numbers may be correct, they may be way off. Definitely make more on food/beverage, but getting that many people in the door daily may be the hardest part. 

 

(Open to suggestions if anyone thinks my quick estimates are way off base.)

 

Looks like Topgolf per Callaway's financials has their Opex margin ~11%, which would leave my scenario above at ~$25K. 

[gticlay]

On 9/14/2022 at 11:41 PM, Ironman_32 said:

Just back of the envelope, if you average 25 people per day, at $30 average per person, thats $750 per day; say 6 days a week, $4,500 per week, $18,000 per month, $216,000 per year. Call it even at $225,000 per year. 

 

Gross $225,000, say expenses are $100,000 for the year ( $5K a month in rent, $60,000 total in rent, another $40K in expenses), that leaves $125,000. Say 40% taxes, that leaves $75,000. 

 

Those numbers may be correct, they may be way off. Definitely make more on food/beverage, but getting that many people in the door daily may be the hardest part. 

 

(Open to suggestions if anyone thinks my quick estimates are way off base.)

 

Looks like Topgolf per Callaway's financials has their Opex margin ~11%, which would leave my scenario above at ~$25K. 

Typically they are rented or offered by the hour.  You can have 1 or 10 people hitting balls for that hour. So if it's in use 7am to 7pm, you'll have 12 hours of income. The one I worked at had an app to book and pin code to get it.  So people could book 5am to 11pm.  That gives the potential for 18 hours. Ours had a larger sim business open the same month so business was a bit slow but the others in other towns that opened during covid were PACKED.  Not sure how that will work out without a pandemic do drive people to try golf, but that's the number of hours potential I see.  I find it interesting with the membership and hourly options - would like to see how that affects the overall income model.  I haven't thought too much about that aspect, but will be looking into how that works out.

[Ironman_32]

17 hours ago, gticlay said:

Typically they are rented or offered by the hour.  You can have 1 or 10 people hitting balls for that hour. So if it's in use 7am to 7pm, you'll have 12 hours of income. The one I worked at had an app to book and pin code to get it.  So people could book 5am to 11pm.  That gives the potential for 18 hours. Ours had a larger sim business open the same month so business was a bit slow but the others in other towns that opened during covid were PACKED.  Not sure how that will work out without a pandemic do drive people to try golf, but that's the number of hours potential I see.  I find it interesting with the membership and hourly options - would like to see how that affects the overall income model.  I haven't thought too much about that aspect, but will be looking into how that works out.

Fair take. My analysis was more back of the envelope so I'd say the revenue/expenses could be even double or triple, but the margins will probably hover around the same. 

 

Like I said prior, there is one of these in my town that does okay I think, and another soon to open. It could work out, but it also couldn't. I question how many people will come multiple times, but I guess we will see. 

[gticlay]

On 10/31/2022 at 3:32 PM, Ironman_32 said:

Fair take. My analysis was more back of the envelope so I'd say the revenue/expenses could be even double or triple, but the margins will probably hover around the same. 

 

Like I said prior, there is one of these in my town that does okay I think, and another soon to open. It could work out, but it also couldn't. I question how many people will come multiple times, but I guess we will see. 

Yeah, it must depend on the social aspect as well - the one I worked at was pretty private but the one with 7 bays that is always packed has a social component to it as well. I guess there's a lot of seniors that gather and chat while people are playing.

[me05501]

On 9/14/2022 at 8:46 AM, double_d said:

 

 

If a membership is $1,200 and it fully includes all hourly bay rates, at $40 an hour normal bay rental, you only need to use it 30 hours a year to get your money's worth. Seems like a bargain unless I am really missing something.

 

 

As winter approaches I've looked a little closer at what they are offering with a membership. Here are the terms:

• You can do a monthly recurring membership at $125/month if you agree to have the money drafted from a bank account and you commit for at least 90 days
• The membership entitles you do free play on Tuesdays and Wednesdays (member only days). 
• You can book time on other days at a reduced rate of $20/hour. 
• You get a 10% discount on food and other merchandise (they are opening a little pro shop so this could eventually include balls/gloves I suppose?) 

I'm considering doing this over the winter while I work on my swing changes over December/January/February. 

 

I go to a public range about three times per week and spend $8-12 per trip and this would replace that for me over the winter. 

 

I'm sure a lot of other people are considering the same winter strategy. If so, access to bays on member's days might be a bit harder to get, but with five bays and all-day hours I think it would be okay. I control my own schedule and could use the morning hours which are probably less in demand. 

[vandyfan]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

You can book time on other days at a reduced rate of $20/hour. 

 

That is still a bit steep. So assuming you don't play on Tuesday/Wednesdays you would need to book at least 6 sessions a month to break even on the $125? Here in Nashville, you can rent a bay at Golf Galaxy, one off, for $40. It is trackman and you have the other nice option of having hundreds of clubs in there to test out on the launch monitor. I am not the biggest golf galaxy fanboy but that sounds more appealing to me. The food/drink option is not something I have any need or care for but I could be in the minority on that. 

[me05501]

16 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

 

That is still a bit steep. So assuming you don't play on Tuesday/Wednesdays you would need to book at least 6 sessions a month to break even on the $125? Here in Nashville, you can rent a bay at Golf Galaxy, one off, for $40. It is trackman and you have the other nice option of having hundreds of clubs in there to test out on the launch monitor. I am not the biggest golf galaxy fanboy but that sounds more appealing to me. The food/drink option is not something I have any need or care for but I could be in the minority on that. 

 

Yeah it's not that appealing price-wise. I'm trying to commit to some swing changes and don't want to lose my momentum over the short winter which is the only reason I'm considering it for this year. I'd really be trying to get my money's worth on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. 

[me05501]

So I signed up today, actually. Like I mentioned above I’m working on my swing and I don’t want to lose my momentum over the cold months. It helped that a buddy also signed up at the same time. 
 

After spending some time today digging into some of the Trackman features, I think it can really help quantify my changes and help me spot patterns early. The integration between the Trackman system and the Trackman app  is awesome. I’m laying on my couch now reviewing the data from my practice session today. 
 

The only other place I can get on a Trackman costs $50/hour, so this will work out to be way cheaper if I use it as intended. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by me05501

[ohioglfr]

I don't think there are any in my town but I love the concept.  What with golf domes being practically non-existent and our crummy winter weather here, I hope to see these around here.  Even if it's difficult to reserve a slot, I'd just love to sit there, bourbon in hand, and watch.