Shaft Flex and how to take advantage of it

[platgof]

In, my search for the perfect shaft I decided to try some "L" flex shafts to see what the difference might be. One shaft the tip is .350 and it played as a regular flex. I got some other L flex and it seems they are neck and neck with an "A" flex shaft. I am trying to find a real whipper if you will, something with lots of kick. I am trying a cheapo L flex shaft and it is working really well. So much so it transformed the driver, a PXG Gen 5 into a formidable weapon. It is a UST Mamiya dRVR L flex. I did flo it, as I always flo cheaper shafts to get the most bang out of them. Anyways the subject matter is: how would you choose your shaft flex to get the most bang out of your driver, as in shot dispersion and of course length. As a graying senior I need all the help I can get with both. I am now at the point of needing more length. The Gen 5 is at 12* and the shaft that came with it, though an A shaft, just did not have the kick I needed. This shaft, el cheapo dRVR, has a very smooth kick to it. It is set at 46," and did great at the range and on the course. the added bonus is the color matches the club perfectly. As for accuracy it is spot on. I epoxied the tip on, cut it, and added the grip. Very pleased. I am also trying an SK Fiber Tour Trac 55 for the G Max, but my gut feeling is the Distanza shaft has this spot won.

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, platgof said:

Anyways the subject matter is: how would you choose your shaft flex to get the most bang out of your driver, as in shot dispersion and of course length.

 

The only good option is trial and error testing.   Keep looking until you find the one that works the way you want it to.    It's a bit more efficient process with a good fitter, but that's not required.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Stuart_G

[platgof]

I put an L flex shaft in the PXG Gen5 driver, and shot my lowest round ever, go figure. This shaft was like $20 shipped. I was struggling with it on the front nine, but had the wrong tees, so I teed it lower, and it worked great.

[platgof]

Softening a shaft can result in more distance. If you have a smooth swing, you should go with the softest flex possible. Length and weight can easily soften a shaft's flex. Seniors who have slower swing speeds can get distance back by softening their shafts flex.

[Stuart_G]

16 hours ago, platgof said:

Softening a shaft can result in more distance. If you have a smooth swing, you should go with the softest flex possible. Length and weight can easily soften a shaft's flex. Seniors who have slower swing speeds can get distance back by softening their shafts flex.

 

Doing anything can result in more distance if it results in a positive change to the swing or impact or the ball numbers.

 

But there is nothing about the a softer shaft stiffness that inherently adds distance.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Stuart_G

[platgof]

So, the next time I buy a fishing pole I should get the stiffest shaft for casting? 

[Stuart_G]

17 minutes ago, platgof said:

So, the next time I buy a fishing pole I should get the stiffest shaft for casting? 

 

I don't know.  This isn't a forum on fishing and I've never read any research papers on fishing.

 

I have, however read and studied plenty on the effect of shaft stiffness on the swing and the club head speed.  

 

Different sport, different motion, different details in the purpose and goals for that motion, and different physics.   Assuming similarities between the two is not going to get you the right answers.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Denny100]

If you present the same amount of clubhead speed on the same path to the ball, with the same amount of delivered loft, the ball will do the same thing, L flex or X flex.

 

Where I personally believe the misconception comes, is that people think they swing exactly the same and the shaft changes the ball flight, when in reality the shaft is causing THEM to swing slightly differently, which affects the way the club is delivered and the angles delivered, which equals a slightly different ball flight.

 

In a real life setting, youll adjust to the different shafts, whether you want to or not. If it feels hard as a rock, theres no way youre just going to ignore that as you swing. Likewise, too soft of a shaft probably feels "whippy" and speedy, but its a feeling, it wouldnt be significantly different, or might even make you slower or out of tempo.

 

When I hit too stiff of a shaft, i tend to find:

 

• The "feeling" of a good shot doesnt last very long, the ball flies off the face with a thud and the shot is over. With a well fitted shaft, I get more sense of feel of the contact
• The shaft doesnt bend very much. Has a very dead feeling throughout the swing, like I instinctively want to make it "load" and will probably end up swinging harder
• Mis-hits feel absolutely crap

 

When I hit too soft of a shaft, i tend to find:

 

• Irrespective of what actually happens, i FEEL like i will hit it all over the place. Even if I dont, i never have much confidence that I will not have some wild misses
• The shaft loads a lot. This feeling makes me want to slow down, or be smoother than normal, affecting tempo
• It often FEELS like i can move the club quicker, or with less effort, again not always a good thing.

 

This is very personal and your experience might be different.

 

[platgof]

My primary reference is for seniors who have lost distance and probably need to drop a flex to improve distance. A softer shaft that "does fit" will provide a lot more distance, and also be easier on the body, as in no need to kill it for the same distance, and it will also compensate for less body movement as well. I have been experimenting with club length as well and am now at 46". This also helps to soften the shaft. What I am proposing is going with the softest shaft you can control, to get back lost distance in your later years. I have personally gained considerable yardage using this method, with less effort as well.

[Stuart_G]

2 minutes ago, platgof said:

My primary reference is for seniors who have lost distance and probably need to drop a flex to improve distance. A softer shaft that "does fit" will provide a lot more distance, and also be easier on the body, as in no need to kill it for the same distance,

 

That certainly can be true in some cases.  But only when the feel of the stiffer shaft is contributing to a change in the swing that's causing the person to loose some club heads speed.  e.g.  trying too hard to load the shaft and resulting in too much grip pressure - or poor sequencing of the body.

 

But any improvement in distance or club head speed will always come from improvements in the mechanics because of the different feel from the shaft.  It will never come directly from the shaft.   e.g.  robot testing will not show any increase in club head speed or distance as the stiffness drops.  It may get a bit more dynamic loft IF the release is late enough.   And some people slowing down can also certainly use that extra dynamic loft if their equipment was fit for them with a faster swing speed.   But they could just as easily get that extra dynamic loft by using a higher lofted head.

 

But the key is that we are not robots.   So some can certainly get better results going softer.   But it's just as common that other's can get worse results by going softer.   And many will not see any difference what-so-ever.  That's why we have to get out and test the different options to see what works best for each individual.

 

If you're finding things that are helping you - that's great.   Just don't assume that what works for you will necessarily work for everyone else.

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, platgof said:

So, the next time I buy a fishing pole I should get the stiffest shaft for casting? 

Probably, but you couldn't afford it. The best rods tend to be the lightest, stiffest rods with very fast actions.  They require certain techniques to cast well and significantly better skill.

[Pepperturbo]

Just got back from a couple of weeks of golf.  My shafts are starting to feel a bit tiring over lots of golf.  One day, decided to use my wife's AP1 4i and 5i with senior 65g shafts.  I played 15 holes at one course using those 2 clubs.  I was amazed.  A sweet strike of her 5i was easy, straight and 180-195yds.  Not bad for 70 years old.  My wife said she never saw me swing like that before and didn't know her clubs could do that.

 

What I noticed was my transition left and follow-through were easier and faster, and no doubt the AP1 heads are stronger and more forgiving than my 620 MBs which require a lot more of everything.  I used Driver on the first 3 holes, and switched to her 4i/5i as often as I could hit them, and got around 6400yds of a testy course with an 80.  Unfortunately, her shafts were discontinued years back.  It motivated me though into buying/testing some sub 100g shafts, including senior flex.  I was amazed at how much yardage I gained over that of my MMT 125s in 5i = 170yds.

[DoubleBogeyBlues67]

I’m in between stiff and Xstiff in my woods.. I’ve played both with success. Comes down to feel, of each particular brand shaft.. a stiff 6.0 HZRDUS black feels good, but so does a xstiff tensei raw white.. so a bit of trial and error, and some data.. always keep an open mind when experimenting/browsing 

[Zena]

12 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Probably, but you couldn't afford it. The best rods tend to be the lightest, stiffest rods with very fast actions.  They require certain techniques to cast well and significantly better skill.

 

Sounds like golf.

 

Except you know, you shouldn’t be casting a golf club.

[Howard_Jones]

14 hours ago, Denny100 said:

If you present the same amount of clubhead speed on the same path to the ball, with the same amount of delivered loft, the ball will do the same thing, L flex or X flex.

 

Where I personally believe the misconception comes, is that people think they swing exactly the same and the shaft changes the ball flight, when in reality the shaft is causing THEM to swing slightly differently, which affects the way the club is delivered and the angles delivered, which equals a slightly different ball flight.

 

In a real life setting, youll adjust to the different shafts, whether you want to or not. If it feels hard as a rock, theres no way youre just going to ignore that as you swing. Likewise, too soft of a shaft probably feels "whippy" and speedy, but its a feeling, it wouldnt be significantly different, or might even make you slower or out of tempo.

 

When I hit too stiff of a shaft, i tend to find:

 

• The "feeling" of a good shot doesnt last very long, the ball flies off the face with a thud and the shot is over. With a well fitted shaft, I get more sense of feel of the contact
• The shaft doesnt bend very much. Has a very dead feeling throughout the swing, like I instinctively want to make it "load" and will probably end up swinging harder
• Mis-hits feel absolutely crap

 

When I hit too soft of a shaft, i tend to find:

 

• Irrespective of what actually happens, i FEEL like i will hit it all over the place. Even if I dont, i never have much confidence that I will not have some wild misses
• The shaft loads a lot. This feeling makes me want to slow down, or be smoother than normal, affecting tempo
• It often FEELS like i can move the club quicker, or with less effort, again not always a good thing.

 

This is very personal and your experience might be different.

 

The clue is in BOLD text, and what i turned into a fitting concept more than 10 years ago, called VISUAL FITTING, where we are able to SEE club specs while the player is swinging the club, and take advantage of that to "force" his swing into a better working one for him. You can read more about it all here, and what to look for to be able to SEE a good or bad fit, and whats wrong if it is.

For short, a slow swinger can be turned into a faster swinger with higher club speed and improved impact pattern (more wgt or stiffer feel), and "the too fast hitter type", can be slowed down to improve his performance by giving him a softer shaft with more feedback of bending and release.
This is how it actually works, all the way up to PGA and LPGA level where this fitting method has proven to deliver what we seek (link of example of a LPGA player within the link below)
 

 

[95124hacker]

There’s a misconception that the shaft unloads/kicks right at impact, but British researchers found (using high speed cameras) that the shaft unloads BEFORE impact. I guess the effect of soft shafts is added dynamic loft but probably more backspin. I could be wrong, and Stuart and/or Howard could correct me.

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, 95124hacker said:

There’s a misconception that the shaft unloads/kicks right at impact, but British researchers found (using high speed cameras) that the shaft unloads BEFORE impact. I guess the effect of soft shafts is added dynamic loft but probably more backspin. I could be wrong, and Stuart and/or Howard could correct me.

A softer shaft can potentially deliver more dynamic loft, but its the summary of it all that ends up as delivery to the ball. For a club like the driver, impact position is #1, delivery is #2, meaning it does not matter if it all looks perfect, and with a positive AOA, if impact position is bad.

For the DRIVER, vertical gear effects is the absolute ruler of spin, Dynamic loft is #2
For a 100 mph club speed player, 1.0* added loft should deliver about 260 rpm of spin (same impact), while it only takes 1/8" movement of impact up or down, to change spin with average 240 rpm. The numbers are so close, we want be able to isolate the added loft as added spin, unless impact pattern and average is silly tight.

The shaft MIGHT move impact higher on the face, and in those cases we will see "high launch low spin, not high spin or "higher spin" from added dynamic loft, but lower spin, since vertical gear effects will eat more spin than dynamic loft adds.

Launch angle also changes with impact height, and average 0.35* for each 1/8" we move impact up or down, so we should not worry much about added dynamic loft, but focus on where we should dial in impact on the face.

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, 95124hacker said:

There’s a misconception that the shaft unloads/kicks right at impact, but British researchers found (using high speed cameras) that the shaft unloads BEFORE impact. I guess the effect of soft shafts is added dynamic loft but probably more backspin. I could be wrong, and Stuart and/or Howard could correct me.

 

Yes.  In golf the shaft will always unload before impact.    Largely due to the nature of the double pendulum dynamics.  And the fact that the biggest muscles are used and trigger the most acceleration very early in the swing.

 

Now there can still be a little "kick velocity" in play (added speed from the unloading) but the more of that there is,  the more deceleration or stalling of the hands have to come with it - to give no real net gain in club head speed.

 

Also more deflection that only comes from a softer shaft doesn't necessarily mean more kick velocity since softer shafts also have lower vibration response frequencies.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Stuart_G]

18 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Probably, but you couldn't afford it. The best rods tend to be the lightest, stiffest rods with very fast actions.  They require certain techniques to cast well and significantly better skill.

 

Interesting.  Not a fisherman myself - so hadn't thought about it much and this is all supposition - but I'd think that getting the most out of the cast is much more about timing the release of the line.  And a softer rod - with bigger deflection and slower action - makes timing the release much easier (or more forgiving).

 

[Howard_Jones]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Interesting.  Not a fisherman myself - so hadn't thought about it much and this is all supposition - but I'd think that getting the most out of the cast is much more about timing the release of the line.  And a softer rod - with bigger deflection and slower action - makes timing the release much easier (or more forgiving).

 

Its all about timing, just like a golf swing, and just like the shaft for golf clubs, the rod has to be a good match for the fly fishers way of loading and release of the rod/shaft, where both the length of the line "in play" and its weight, is part of it all. (i never build my own fly fishing rods, but many of my fishing pals does, its like with golf clubs, some will never be happy with "OEM")

Its all tech and timing, but with a fly rod you have "all the time in this world", but its still the timing that has to be right, and the timing want be 100%, unless the Rod is custom built and fitted for the fisher.

Just like with a good Golf swing, they make it look so easy and effortless
 

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[ThinkingPlus]

3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Interesting.  Not a fisherman myself - so hadn't thought about it much and this is all supposition - but I'd think that getting the most out of the cast is much more about timing the release of the line.  And a softer rod - with bigger deflection and slower action - makes timing the release much easier (or more forgiving).

 

Rods with a slower action are easier to cast, but their performance is poorer.  The faster actions perform better if you learn the right technique and timing.  Performance in the case, as in golf, means further and more precise.

 

The faster actions deliver more energy to the lure in a shorter time with less effort from the fisherman. It's a more efficient process if you have the skill to take advantage of it. If you fish for short time periods making only a few casts, it doesn't matter as much. If you make a thousand casts in a day then efficiency, power, and lightness become important (my right shoulder can attest).

[Pastit]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Rods with a slower action are easier to cast, but their performance is poorer.  The faster actions perform better if you learn the right technique and timing.  Performance in the case, as in golf, means further and more precise.

 

The faster actions deliver more energy to the lure in a shorter time with less effort from the fisherman. It's a more efficient process if you have the skill to take advantage of it. If you fish for short time periods making only a few casts, it doesn't matter as much. If you make a thousand casts in a day then efficiency, power, and lightness become important (my right shoulder can attest).

“ less effort “ - definitely not. Secondly, in a few types of fishing e.g. chalk stream dry-fly fishing, power casting is a no-no. 

[Pepperturbo]

On 10/7/2022 at 1:42 AM, Stuart_G said:

But there is nothing about the a softer shaft stiffness that inherently adds distance.

Agree

 

Distance IMO is more about loft, how the club head impacts the ball, shaft profile and ball composition.   Yesterday using range balls, I tested a new senior 65g F2 Recoil in my 620 CB 7i head.  It was a few yards shorter than 620 MB 7i head with PX 115g 5.5 shaft.  My 620 MB 8i with PX 5.5 was nearly, carry wise, as long as 65g F2 Recoil.

 

Last week when playing my wife's "low bend" Kuro_Kage 65g senior shaft in AP1 5i that is 2' stronger than my 5i, it was a club almost 2 longer than my 620 5i with MMT 125 stiff shaft.  Used both clubs with DASH -ProV1x.  I had more SS and greater follow though with wife's lighter tip soft shaft, + 2" stronger club.  Nearly a wash.

[platgof]

Do those fishing rods meet USGA guidelines??? Look a tad long to me. The flex of the shaft has to fit the strength and swing of the player. If you combine length, loft, weight, and flex to a proper fit, a longer drive can be achieved, but it cannot diminish accuracy to the point of being unplayable. This is why Graphite Design shafts are so popular, they have that extra pop while maintaining accuracy and a smooth feel.

 

[Stuart_G]

9 hours ago, platgof said:

The flex of the shaft has to fit the strength and swing of the player.

 

No, actually it doesn't.  It just has to fit their personal preference for feel to a certain degree.  Or more accurately, not give a feel that's contrary to their personal expectations of how it is supposed to feel.    And that's mostly just for those that use the loading/unloading feel to help time their swing to some degree.

 

9 hours ago, platgof said:

If you combine length, loft, weight, and flex to a proper fit, a longer drive can be achieved,

 

You keep saying this but it's really too vague to really be useful or meaningful in any way.   Nor have you provided anything to really support the claim that the improvement really is coming from the shaft and not from improvements in the motion itself.

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Stuart_G

[ChaosTheory]

I’m with @Denny100 

It’s all about how the shaft influences (changes) your swing.  You will swing differently with different shafts.  

[animalgolfs]

 

 

Everything about my ss states I should be using "softer" flex profiled shafts....but in reality all the softer profile shafts bring in is: wild dispersion patterns & excessive spin into the wind【especially short irons]

[platgof]

On 10/9/2022 at 8:59 AM, animalgolfs said:

 

 

Everything about my ss states I should be using "softer" flex profiled shafts....but in reality all the softer profile shafts bring in is: wild dispersion patterns & excessive spin into the wind【especially short irons]

Fast transition swings would cause this. Obviously, you put a lot of torque to the shaft. Let me guess, softball home run hitter?

[animalgolfs]

30 minutes ago, platgof said:

Fast transition swings would cause this. Obviously, you put a lot of torque to the shaft. Let me guess, softball home run hitter?

More on the side of slow tempos, actually really slow according to most I play with. 

 

Huge hands & wrist....I got that covered, if that's your question

[Stuart_G]

On 10/9/2022 at 9:59 AM, animalgolfs said:

Everything about my ss states I should be using "softer" flex profiled shafts....but in reality all the softer profile shafts bring in is: wild dispersion patterns & excessive spin into the wind【especially short irons]

 

Not everything.   Swing speed is only one small factor - and not even the most important one.

 

When going softer (or going firmer for that matter) causes dispersion problems or big misses or has a big influence on face impact or spin - the root cause is almost always that the different feel from the shaft is messing with your timing or sequencing.

 

Some people just learn to expect a certain feel from the shaft loading and unloading and even sometimes (subconsciously) use that feel to help time their mechanics.  When the feel doesn't match their expectations, lots of bad things can creep into the swing.  Anything can happen but dispersion and/or shot shape control are usually the most common things to get worse.

 

So, don't worry about your swing speed or what "people" say, just play what works best for YOU. There is ZERO inherent advantage to going softer and no advantage to playing what everyone thinks you should be playing based on your swing speed or anything else other than your personal preference for feel.