Will shorter iron lengths help me not be so upright?

[nsxguy]

You've got too many issues going on at once.

 

Firstly, it's hard to believe that, especially working with "Top 100 fitters", nobody addressed club length.

 

Anywho, as @bladehunter mentioned and, as you yourself discovered via Google, there's a radius between your ball and your hands at impact that needs to be gotten right.

 

As bh said, standing too upright with heel hits and you have to shorten that radius. You've done so by keeping that same upright posture and gripping down on the club a bit. Voila', you're hitting the center.

 

But YOUR problem is your instructor(s) want you to stand less upright/more bent over.

 

This shortens that radius (from upright), so likely you have to move further from the ball and/or grip down/shorten a bit more than before, and likely swing a little flatter; which you're over-the-top path suggest you need to do anyway.

 

At some point you'd have to address your lie angle because that likely would have to change as well - but first things first.

 

But I think you first have to decide what kind of posture/stance you're going with. Will you be listening to your instructors and work with the more athletic, less upright stance or do you want to stay with your own upright stance and work from there ?

 

First things first.

[NerdyGolfer]

31 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Firstly, it's hard to believe that, especially working with "Top 100 fitters", nobody addressed club length

Well of course they addressed length, but it was more of “oh you’re standard”. I fit the mold of a standard length club because of my measurements but that’s where it ends. I’ve been to true spec, club champion, local 100 fitters in Orlando, teaching pros who fit and not a single one of them has suggested this. I had a local 100 fitter that literally told me “I can’t fit you” because I sliced so hard. I explained the length of his demo shafts was an issue and he said no you need a lesson. To which he decided he was going to “show me a thing or two”. To say my distrust in fitters is high is a massive understatement. But that’s for another discussion. 

 

when I stand in more of the athletic position it does feel like my clubs are too long and it almost forces me back up (if that makes sense, you kind of hit on the situation above). I’ve only recently discovered the choking down situation and that’s where I’m trying to understand if it’s true or not. Or see if someone else has had the same issue.
 

basically what I’m saying is the right fix is absolutely my posture. But if my clubs are hurting me too (and there’s a simple fix), couldn’t that be investigated? I agree that only one thing should be changed at a time but which do I go down? Length or posture?

[NerdyGolfer]

1 hour ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Apologies if this has been addressed (pun not intended), but as a former OTT swinger, how are you both OTT, and inside to out?

 

When I was OTT (and also quite upright in stance and now lie too:  though two haven't changed much), my out to in path was at times around 8 degrees.  In to out wasn't happening.

 

Edit:  I see the nomenclature has been addressed.  Yes, shortening your swing will likely help, as it did for me.  I will warn you though that:  you will feel like your swing length is much shorter than it actually is (video helps), and at least in my case, your swing speed will go down a tad. (92 7-iron to 88-ish).  This may annoy you.  I anticipate my ball speed will increase as I make my strike more consistent with lower launch.  We'll see.

Appreciate it! How much did you end up going down? And for reference, what’s your driver/ 3W length at?

 

and yeah sorry brain fart there…I have my mind set on changing my swing path and not what it currently is. Manifest it and it will happen? Lol

[nsxguy]

20 minutes ago, NerdyGolfer said:

Well of course they addressed length, but it was more of “oh you’re standard”. I fit the mold of a standard length club because of my measurements but that’s where it ends. I’ve been to true spec, club champion, local 100 fitters in Orlando, teaching pros who fit and not a single one of them has suggested this.

 

I find it hard to believe a professional fitter would say such a thing, but if you say so, I have no reason to doubt it.

 

Frankly, I would have walked out right there and then.

[Dufferonius]

I. for one, would be interested in seeing a down-line swing video from @NerdyGolfer

 

A face-on swing video, as well, wouldn't hurt.

 

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, NerdyGolfer said:

Well of course they addressed length, but it was more of “oh you’re standard”. I fit the mold of a standard length club because of my measurements but that’s where it ends. I’ve been to true spec, club champion, local 100 fitters in Orlando, teaching pros who fit and not a single one of them has suggested this. I had a local 100 fitter that literally told me “I can’t fit you” because I sliced so hard. I explained the length of his demo shafts was an issue and he said no you need a lesson. To which he decided he was going to “show me a thing or two”. To say my distrust in fitters is high is a massive understatement. But that’s for another discussion. 

 

when I stand in more of the athletic position it does feel like my clubs are too long and it almost forces me back up (if that makes sense, you kind of hit on the situation above). I’ve only recently discovered the choking down situation and that’s where I’m trying to understand if it’s true or not. Or see if someone else has had the same issue.
 

basically what I’m saying is the right fix is absolutely my posture. But if my clubs are hurting me too (and there’s a simple fix), couldn’t that be investigated? I agree that only one thing should be changed at a time but which do I go down? Length or posture?

If a bunch of top fitters didn't see an issue with it, do you really think a minor length issue is the root cause of a wicked slice?

 

If shorter clubs fixed a slice, it would be a well known quick fix for the millions of slicers out there. 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Krt22

[hammersia]

16 hours ago, NerdyGolfer said:

All good things here. I agree on the SW as I too have found lighter seems to work better for me, but I'm toeing a fine line between too light and just right.

 

I've yet to have a fitter suggest shorter for me and it's insanely frustrating. I've been to over a dozen different fitters with the same results. Everyone fits for the same length and never suggests shorter unless you are very short or a female. I self fit now because of the knowledge I've gained and it has worked well for me. I'm fairly dialed in when it comes to shafts and such and know my profile and swing very well. I'm just looking to see if there's any commonsense behind shortening based on my contact location. 

 

I also read somewhere that about 80-90% of golfers are playing "too long" of clubs and could benefit from going shorter. That stat blew me away because of how fearful fitters are of going shorter. With tour driver shaft lengths averaging well below the stock lengths that is just insanity.

Very specifically on drivers, yes the pros are playing considerably shorter shafts than is sold at retail, one or two inches shorter. BUT they have the lie angle and swing weight matched up to what it would have been with a longer shaft - it is purely an adjustment to loose a couple of mph of clubhead speed and gain 10% in accuracy.

 

With irons, pros are playing absolutely standard lengths for their height / reach etc. - you could borrow a pros iron who had the same build as you. 

 

You say you've been to a dozen fitters. Even to my semi - pro eye it is always obvious if someone is playing irons the wrong length. Many times I've wanted to go up to people at the range and point out they have the wrong length clubs. When no fitter is telling you this, you're going to have to accept it.

[NerdyGolfer]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I find it hard to believe a professional fitter would say such a thing, but if you say so, I have no reason to doubt it.

 

Frankly, I would have walked out right there and then.

So that was how he basically ended the session and didn’t leave me any room to say anything. Also ended slightly early to help someone that walked in. Literally blew my mind. Refused to show me a single shot on the launch monitor and that was my first red flag. He was one of the first “more expensive” and top fitters that I went to so I just told myself to trust the process. Well that left me extremely upset and nothing to show for the fitting.

[NerdyGolfer]

7 hours ago, Dufferonius said:

I. for one, would be interested in seeing a down-line swing video from @NerdyGolfer

 

A face-on swing video, as well, wouldn't hurt.

 

Well I dug and dug and couldn’t anything. I have some random backed up stuff on my Google cloud and I’ll see if I can find something there. I know it’ll be some half rate down the line video. It also might be before I got lessons. I don’t take video of myself very often but might be something I should do more.

 

I went to my last coach’s teaching platform to see if the videos were saved there and it doesn’t seem like it. If there wasn’t a hurricane about to hit Orlando I’d go to the range today and send it out! Mother Nature always throwing wrenches! Maybe I can get something shot at my garage?

[NerdyGolfer]

6 hours ago, Krt22 said:

If a bunch of top fitters didn't see an issue with it, do you really think a minor length issue is the root cause of a wicked slice?

 

If shorter clubs fixed a slice, it would be a well known quick fix for the millions of slicers out there. 

 

 

Less club to handle = slightly easier to close at impact. I assure you I’m not the only one that has done this and it worked very very well. Does it fix my slice? Hell no. Does it contain it enough to where I take an awful swing and don’t lose a ball? Absolutely. And that’s what I’m looking for.

I have the perfect shaft, ideal length, club lofted up to close the face and weight added on the heel. I call it my slice killer. There are countless threads on here about this exact thing, so it’s not coincidental.

 

[SNIPERBBB]

Perfect shaft for what? If you're shortening your clubs and don't soften your shaft, its going to make it harder for you to close the face. 

[NerdyGolfer]

Just now, SNIPERBBB said:

Perfect shaft for what? If you're shortening your clubs and don't soften your shaft, its going to make it harder for you to close the face. 

Well my SS is on the cusp of going to X flex or at least tipped. Plus the shaft I play is on the softer side in regards to flex. Already knowing this…I went shorter and it was the perfect match up. Perfect shaft for me?

[SNIPERBBB]

Is it perfect for distance or accuracy? 

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, NerdyGolfer said:

I have the perfect shaft, ideal length, club lofted up to close the face and weight added on the heel. I call it my slice killer. There are countless threads on here about this exact thing, so it’s not coincidental.

 

 

I think you mean lie angle more upright rather than club lofted up.

 

But that aside, I'm under the impression that weight on the heel of an IRON does the opposite of adding it to the heel of a driver.

 

For the driver ,weight to the heel would encourage the toe to close more quickly and thus square up the face, somewhat mitigating a slice.

 

But with the irons the opposite happens. Weight to the TOE of the iron helps close the face; to the heel would cause the face to remain (more) open.

 

Or am I misremembering (again) ?

[Krt22]

3 hours ago, NerdyGolfer said:

Less club to handle = slightly easier to close at impact. I assure you I’m not the only one that has done this and it worked very very well. Does it fix my slice? Hell no. Does it contain it enough to where I take an awful swing and don’t lose a ball? Absolutely. And that’s what I’m looking for.

I have the perfect shaft, ideal length, club lofted up to close the face and weight added on the heel. I call it my slice killer. There are countless threads on here about this exact thing, so it’s not coincidental.

 

In general game improvement clubs designed to help slicers are longer, with more upright lie angles, more offset.

 

Shorter clubs (thus flatter lie angles) typically do the exact opposite...ie if you want the ball to draw less, slightly flatter clubs is a common solution.

 

Good luck with the slice

 

 

[Krt22]

17 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

For the driver ,weight to the heel would encourage the toe to close more quickly and thus square up the face, somewhat mitigating a slice.

 

But with the irons the opposite happens. Weight to the TOE of the iron helps close the face; to the heel would cause the face to remain (more) open.

 

 

Heel/toe weighting actually has very little to do with face closure. In large head woods it's mainly gear effect compensation to neutralize club/path induced curve, which is why "draw" type drivers actually have lower MOI than the standard version. Offset is the main element of irons that helps close the face.

[Pepperturbo]

23 hours ago, NerdyGolfer said:

I agree with you that you have to have somewhat of an athletic stance, definitely not swaying there. The one thing that I tend to get caught up in is when a coach tries to fit everyone in this pretty little box of a stance. An athletic stance is such a broad term and can mean many different things for many different sports. One thing is for certain (like you said) there needs to be a bend somewhere along the line or you’ll never make it back to the ball. How coaches teach that and how they set you up varies greatly and that’s been tough for me to catch onto.

 

the big thing here for me is could the length of my clubs be hindering me from getting into that position?

 

I also wouldn’t say I’m looking for validation of a fixed notion, it’s purely a question. I did “x” and “y” happened. Am I crazy? Or am I onto something? Is this coincidental or on purpose? 

Contrary to what's thought, athletic address is relatively the same for all of us, regardless of our body shapes, the reason I referenced JD.  Width of your feet at address should be shoulder width.  Age might influence whether we open our left toe at address.  I am older, so I open my left foot to ensure an easy transition.

 

Take two old clubs and have one extended and one shortened to what you think, and head to the range.  You should find out rather quickly.  Again, my clubs are Titleist standard length, which means long compared to what I used to play.  Half-inch short might be optimal, so I choke down on them about 1", problem solved.

[Barfolomew]

I lengthened irons 1".  Therefore had to flatten lie angles 2 degrees.  Made me have a flatter swing, that I like, cause couldn't be steep with that lie angle.

 

So if you shortened clubs you would need to make clubs more upright and so would need to swing more upright to match those lie angles

[NerdyGolfer]

21 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Contrary to what's thought, athletic address is relatively the same for all of us, regardless of our body shapes, the reason I referenced JD.  Width of your feet at address should be shoulder width.  Age might influence whether we open our left toe at address.  I am older, so I open my left foot to ensure an easy transition.

 

Take two old clubs and have one extended and one shortened to what you think, and head to the range.  You should find out rather quickly.  Again, my clubs are Titleist standard length, which means long compared to what I used to play.  Half-inch short might be optimal, so I choke down on them about 1", problem solved.

Interesting, great suggestion! I will try that out and see how things go. Because I play JDM clubs and JDM shafts it might be interesting. But I think I can find some experimental heads to work with. Thanks!

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

20 hours ago, NerdyGolfer said:

Appreciate it! How much did you end up going down? And for reference, what’s your driver/ 3W length at?

 

and yeah sorry brain fart there…I have my mind set on changing my swing path and not what it currently is. Manifest it and it will happen? Lol

I originally was a past-parallel, OTT swinger with about 109 SS on 45.5-ish inches. (Whatever Ping stock G425 Max length is w/Arccos)  It's now about 103-106-ish, but with 145-55 ball speed, on a 45 inch driver.  Still working on sequencing and strike obv. (Thank you Howard for your DIY Driver Fitting post!)

 

Current swing "feels like" left arm parallel to ground, some right arm separation/depth, and is about -1 to 1 on the in to out scale.  Usually able to turn over an X-flex Ventus Red---if I jump on it---UST Chrome, or Alta 55...but not so much a Hzrdus Black.  

 

3W is 43-ish inches, works like a dream.  75X AV White.  Can't work it much R to L, but hooked the S pretty badly.  Probably just in my head, but that's what I've found.  149-152 ball speed.  Clearly something is working better here vs. the driver.

 

Reading through the thread, approach your fittings with a beginners mind---maybe they're right after all?---and spend the money/ask around to find a quality fitter.  I was fitted for X100s for irons and I don't think it's a good match.  Shrug.

[NerdyGolfer]

58 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

I originally was a past-parallel, OTT swinger with about 109 SS on 45.5-ish inches. (Whatever Ping stock G425 Max length is w/Arccos)  It's now about 103-106-ish, but with 145-55 ball speed, on a 45 inch driver.  Still working on sequencing and strike obv. (Thank you Howard for your DIY Driver Fitting post!)

 

Current swing "feels like" left arm parallel to ground, some right arm separation/depth, and is about -1 to 1 on the in to out scale.  Usually able to turn over an X-flex Ventus Red---if I jump on it---UST Chrome, or Alta 55...but not so much a Hzrdus Black.  

 

3W is 43-ish inches, works like a dream.  75X AV White.  Can't work it much R to L, but hooked the S pretty badly.  Probably just in my head, but that's what I've found.  149-152 ball speed.  Clearly something is working better here vs. the driver.

 

Reading through the thread, approach your fittings with a beginners mind---maybe they're right after all?---and spend the money/ask around to find a quality fitter.  I was fitted for X100s for irons and I don't think it's a good match.  Shrug.

Appreciate it! Yeah I’ve been working with Howard’s approach for the driver and fairway woods to more accurately depict my optimal length. Got driver dialed in, still working on my woods! But I was hoping to apply the same knowledge to my irons to see if I needed to go down a smidge because of my heel strike. Went from 45.5 to 45 and settled at 44.5 in my driver. I think my woods will be about an inch short. So thinking that most of my clubs have gone down in length I was hoping to see if there was a trend down through my bag (seems mixed to me). 
 

I also know that lengths aren’t as straight forward in woods based on many factors, where as irons are length based on flex and body measurements. Interesting how that works. 
 

I regularly tinker and build my own clubs and I’ve taken a back seat in nearly all of my fittings. I’m wondering if I have more of a forward approach of “hey I’m noticing X, could it be fixed with Y?” Or “do any of these correlations make sense? Could we test them?” No clue but might be worth a shot. Also like the other suggestion of making a few test clubs and seeing how things shake out.

 

either way, thanks for the feedback!

[Barfolomew]

17 hours ago, NerdyGolfer said:

I regularly tinker and build my own clubs and I’ve taken a back seat in nearly all of my fittings.

 

No way amigo!  If you build clubs never take a back seat..... get involved in that conversation cause you're the boss EVEN when someone else recommends something. 

 

Now you dont need to be closed minded obviously but if you know better trust yourself

 

I wish I built clubs.... all I do is grips myself lol.  But I wish I could have a little workshop with all the goodies..... cause I'm self taught and would be great functionally and fun to try different stuff easily

 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Barfolomew

[gsrjc]

I’ve always been told that a longer driver is better for more upright swings. 

[Valtiel]

On 9/26/2022 at 8:32 PM, Dufferonius said:

I. for one, would be interested in seeing a down-line swing video from @NerdyGolfer

 

A face-on swing video, as well, wouldn't hurt.

 

Agreed. For all the talk, there are probably some very clear visual elements in the swing that will cut through all the guesswork. 

[Krt22]

15 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Agreed. For all the talk, there are probably some very clear visual elements in the swing that will cut through all the guesswork. 

Come on bro, no need for any of all that. Shorter irons will surely fix a slice