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Putting Clarification


bargolf
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I saw my name mentioned a couple of times last month. I was a little concerned that some theories were mis-represented. No harm. Just thought I would make myself available to comment or answer any questions.

 

This mainly due to comments about the use of the trail hand and how to counter-act its influence and tendencies on the putting stroke. 

 

Or anything else you might want to talk about. I started my career on forum formats. Maybe it is a good exercise to get back to it. Feel free to hammer away. 

 

Bruce Rearick

 

 

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33 minutes ago, larrybud said:

There's a million threads on here. You'll have to be more specific as to what was said, and what was said incorrectly. Maybe a link to the thread?

Or just ask him a ?

 

Bruce knows more about putting, putters, and marrying the two than anyone on these forums....

 

This is like Michael Phelps asking if anyone has questions about swimming...

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12 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Bruce - are you a believer in lead hand/side dominate putting? Do you like a flat to somewhat bowed lead wrist?

 

For someone who is slightly out to in, what's the best way to get more in to square? 

 

What effect does keeping the putter head low through impact have on path?

Hey! Yes - We use it often when the player struggles with a lot of trail side rotation through the ball. For example the stronger the trail hand grip, the more rotation you will have if you extend the trail arm. So we use the left hand grip to regulate that move. 

I would suggest that if you naturally swing out to in, the easiest way is to move your feet and play closed. Historically there have been dozens of great putters who used a closed stance. By using your feet, you don't put the pressure on your hands to re-route the putter. The stroke stays smoother. You don't lose your feel for speed.

 

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33 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Or just ask him a ?

 

Bruce knows more about putting, putters, and marrying the two than anyone on these forums....

 

This is like Michael Phelps asking if anyone has questions about swimming...

Fanboy much...LOL!  Just yankin your chain and wanted to follow this thread.  Could be interesting.

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Hey Bruce... You ever try to putt 100% right hand dominant? Right handed standard grip

 

Meaning both hands are on the putter with your normal grip but the left hand is just going along for the ride and is stabilizing the putter keeping it online but allows the right hand to completely control the putter.  There seems to be something good there.

 

It goes with the theory that if you were to roll the ball with your hand you would not choose to do it two handed but one handed.  As one handed you have excellent touch. I like it with very fast down hillers as it's a delicate shot needing soft touch, but could see it working for everything if practiced.  Thanks Bruce! 🐈

 

 

 

Edited by Barfolomew

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Bruce,   With your new findings associated with the biomechanical area how does this affect sources of motion.  On the last podcast I listened to, you mentioned that an Utley arms/no shoulders type stoke would be difficult for someone with shorter arms.  Are you finding that specific measurements like arm length and post type influence the source of motion? 

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1 hour ago, Barfolomew said:

Hey Bruce... You ever try to putt 100% right hand dominant? Right handed standard grip

 

Meaning both hands are on the putter with your normal grip but the left hand is just going along for the ride and is stabilizing the putter keeping it online but allows the right hand to completely control the putter.  There seems to be something good there.

 

It goes with the theory that if you were to roll the ball with your hand you would not choose to do it two handed but one handed.  As one handed you have excellent touch. I like it with very fast down hillers as it's a delicate shot needing soft touch, but could see it working for everything if practiced.  Thanks Bruce! 🐈

 

 

 

All the time. I think people would be surprised how many tour level players use this strategy!

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53 minutes ago, nosil said:

Bruce,   With your new findings associated with the biomechanical area how does this affect sources of motion.  On the last podcast I listened to, you mentioned that an Utley arms/no shoulders type stoke would be difficult for someone with shorter arms.  Are you finding that specific measurements like arm length and post type influence the source of motion? 

Hey! Yes is the short answer. To your specific example, if you bend over far enough to clear room for your arms, you end up off balance toward the ball. The tendency is to then pull out of the putt.

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5 hours ago, getitdaily said:

For someone who is slightly out to in, what's the best way to get more in to square? 


I’m the exact opposite, putter wants to move in to out. One day I said screw it, just open up your stance. I’ve been putting great ever since. 
 

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How important is it to get fit for a putter?

 

I hate the way my current putter (Daddy Long Legs Taylor Made) looks but I putt ok with it,  I much prefer the look of Anser style but don't put as well with them.  Is there a chance I find some specs on the Anser style that might make it put more like the mallet.

 

Also, best drills for home putting on a mat/carpet.

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I putt really, really well (for an am) from, say, 15’ and in. 
 

Once I have to start putting some speed into the ball from further out, my ball skids and I never get a good feel for distance putts. If I expect it to skid, I can sometimes get it close. But if I expect it to skid, then it comes off rolling like it should, it’s gone. It’s 5-10 feet by and more than likely a 3-putt. 
 

What causes that? Hitting up? Hitting down? I roll it pretty well from 15 feet and in. What drills do you suggest to get the ball rolling on longer putts for a player with my problem?

 

Thanks!

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12 hours ago, bargolf said:

I saw my name mentioned a couple of times last month. I was a little concerned that some theories were mis-represented. No harm. Just thought I would make myself available to comment or answer any questions.

 

This mainly due to comments about the use of the trail hand and how to counter-act its influence and tendencies on the putting stroke. 

 

Or anything else you might want to talk about. I started my career on forum formats. Maybe it is a good exercise to get back to it. Feel free to hammer away. 

 

Bruce Rearick

 

 

Much respect!!! 

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8 hours ago, Toolish said:

How important is it to get fit for a putter?

 

I hate the way my current putter (Daddy Long Legs Taylor Made) looks but I putt ok with it,  I much prefer the look of Anser style but don't put as well with them.  Is there a chance I find some specs on the Anser style that might make it put more like the mallet.

 

Also, best drills for home putting on a mat/carpet.

Here's bruce's blog. You'll have to go back to 2018 or 2019 posts, but he has several blog posts where he talks about stroke type and putter for that stroke type. Good stuff and a lot more in his blog...

 

https://bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2021-11-04T10:32:00-04:00&max-results=7&m=1

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Much respect Bruce. Really glad to see you back here. We have had numerous conversations regarding putting and putter fittings. I am hoping you could bring some serious insight to us on this thread. Especially the last few weeks where a few of us are really in some serious slumps. 
 

I am curious to know how things are progressing with Bioswing Dynamics/Ultimate Golf Lesson. I am a former student of Mike Adams. I say former very reluctantly. I bought into the theory (can we still call the right hand grip a theory?) and put in a ton of work to try to make it work. I could never find true consistency. One day I looked like a pro and would shoot the easiest 74 you have ever seen, and the next day I would look like I never hit a golf ball in my life and shoot 85. It was incredibly frustrating but I stuck with it for about a year. After a while I had to give it up because I had doubt over every shot, including a little 70 yard wedge. Not a good place to be in. 
 

For reference, I am a side cover golfer, longer arms than height, longer forearms than upper arms, center post, basically zero external shoulder rotation. I played all shots from a slightly closed stance. Slightly strong left hand and right hand in the weakish side cover position. I had two distinct problems that were fairly consistent…. I either hit a massive toe hook left of left or I would get stuck on the downswing bad. Like barely get to the ball bad. 
 

I apologize if bringing up full swing here was irresponsible (I feel like it is all related, but I digress) so I will discuss putting for a bit. I went with my natural grip (strongish left hand, side cover right) and tried all types of putters (blades, face balanced mallets, LAB putters) and I still couldn’t not guard against the pull. Went to a saw grip for a while and all it did was make the pull less severe. So left was just always in play. 
 

So overall 3 lessons and about 1 year of hard work and my handicap didn’t really budge much. But I still believe in the theory, but I am just not so sure it was for me. My measurements were supposed to set me up for a fade. But the ball did nothing but go left. And all clubs, putter included. So at some point I had to take a step back and re analyze. It couldn’t be a coincidence that every shot I hit, from 280 yard drive to a 10 foot putt were going left, could it?
 

Anyway, really glad you are here. I will be all over this thread like a hawk. 

Edited by iceman1118

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9 hours ago, Toolish said:

How important is it to get fit for a putter?

 

I hate the way my current putter (Daddy Long Legs Taylor Made) looks but I putt ok with it,  I much prefer the look of Anser style but don't put as well with them.  Is there a chance I find some specs on the Anser style that might make it put more like the mallet.

 

Also, best drills for home putting on a mat/carpet.

Hi Toolish

Bad guy to ask. I think it is very important. In theory your current putter swings you. Ultra heavy. As you are happy with that it sounds like you have found a weight that works for you. You could try an Anser style. A roll of lead tape, a counter weighted grip and you should have reasonable comparison. However, the putter you have is the ultimate linear low rotation design. Anser with a plumbers neck is not.

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9 hours ago, Augster said:

I putt really, really well (for an am) from, say, 15’ and in. 
 

Once I have to start putting some speed into the ball from further out, my ball skids and I never get a good feel for distance putts. If I expect it to skid, I can sometimes get it close. But if I expect it to skid, then it comes off rolling like it should, it’s gone. It’s 5-10 feet by and more than likely a 3-putt. 
 

What causes that? Hitting up? Hitting down? I roll it pretty well from 15 feet and in. What drills do you suggest to get the ball rolling on longer putts for a player with my problem?

 

Thanks!

Hi Augster,

Here is my best guess on the ball roll issue. as to what causes it? Could be both or neither. Given that you see it on longer putts I am going with that you have more forward shaft lean or de-loft the putter on longer putts. This is common as we try to create speed. You are driving the ball into the turf (no matter how much you hit up on it) this causes the ball to actually bounce and the ball doesn't roll out as well. That you hit it long when you launch it correctly is also evidence of the de-loft. Having said that try this. Focus on hitting longer putts with a vertical shaft. Good or bad results aside it will help you decide what to do next.

 

 

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1 hour ago, iceman1118 said:

Much respect Bruce. Really glad to see you back here. We have had numerous conversations regarding putting and putter fittings. I am hoping you could bring some serious insight to us on this thread. Especially the last few weeks where a few of us are really in some serious slumps. 
 

I am curious to know how things are progressing with Bioswing Dynamics/Ultimate Golf Lesson. I am a former student of Mike Adams. I say former very reluctantly. I bought into the theory (can we still call the right hand grip a theory?) and put in a ton of work to try to make it work. I could never find true consistency. One day I looked like a pro and would shoot the easiest 74 you have ever seen, and the next day I would look like I never hit a golf ball in my life and shoot 85. It was incredibly frustrating but I stuck with it for about a year. After a while I had to give it up because I had doubt over every shot, including a little 70 yard wedge. Not a good place to be in. 
 

For reference, I am a side cover golfer, longer arms than height, longer forearms than upper arms, center post, basically zero external shoulder rotation. I played all shots from a slightly closed stance. Slightly strong left hand and right hand in the weakish side cover position. I had two distinct problems that were fairly consistent…. I either hit a massive toe hook left of left or I would get stuck on the downswing bad. Like barely get to the ball bad. 
 

I apologize if bringing up full swing here was irresponsible (I feel like it is all related, but I digress) so I will discuss putting for a bit. I went with my natural grip (strongish left hand, side cover right) and tried all types of putters (blades, face balanced mallets, LAB putters) and I still couldn’t not guard against the pull. Went to a saw grip for a while and all it did was make the pull less severe. So left was just always in play. 
 

So overall 3 lessons and about 1 year of hard work and my handicap didn’t really budge much. But I still believe in the theory, but I am just not so sure it was for me. My measurements were supposed to set me up for a fade. But the ball did nothing but go left. And all clubs, putter included. So at some point I had to take a step back and re analyze. It couldn’t be a coincidence that every shot I hit, from 280 yard drive to a 10 foot putt were going left, could it?
 

Anyway, really glad you are here. I will be all over this thread like a hawk. 

Hey!

My work with the Ultimate Golf Lesson has been a game changer. There were similarities to the concepts before we met. Watching what Mike Adams and Terry Rowles do in the full swing, explained the why questions I had with each player in putting.  

 

In your case I would suggest we start with looking for a visual - ball position conflict. Your perception of the target is left of your closed set upland even possibly your aim so you swing where you think the target is. Or you play the ball too far forward (target side)of your bodies cog at impact. For example do you hit the ball off your back foot? In my terms this scenario of side cover grip and center to trail anchor post is a left miss. It is easy to get off balance.

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7 minutes ago, bargolf said:

Hey!

My work with the Ultimate Golf Lesson has been a game changer. There were similarities to the concepts before we met. Watching what Mike Adams and Terry Rowles do in the full swing, explained the why questions I had with each player in putting.  

 

In your case I would suggest we start with looking for a visual - ball position conflict. Your perception of the target is left of your closed set upland even possibly your aim so you swing where you think the target is. Or you play the ball too far forward (target side)of your bodies cog at impact. For example do you hit the ball off your back foot? In my terms this scenario of side cover grip and center to trail anchor post is a left miss. It is easy to get off balance.

I am heavily right eye dominant (not sure if that matters) but I have an extreme tendency to align right of my target. Driver all the way to putter. Stance could be closed, square or open, doesn’t matter. I just happen to be a right aimer. Something I could never fully understand. So when I step into the ball, I always feel like I am slightly looking over my front ( left) shoulder to see back to my target. 
 

As for ball position, it absolutely could be a factor. I am always told I have the ball too far forward. 

Edited by iceman1118

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16 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Got any advice for someone who’s putting stroke doesn’t vary length no matter the distance of putt?

 

I particularly struggle with short putts because of my stroke length. 
 

Thanks

Hi Airjammer,

 

Love this question!! My assumption is that you either hit putts rather than swing at them. (THIS IS NOT A BAD THING) Or you vary your tempo based on the length of the putt or the speed required. short or fast putts = slow tempo longer or slower putts = faster tempo. Many of my colleagues think that every putt has a similar rhythm and tempo. However, it is obvious when you get out of the lab that tempos and/or effort change with conditions. The best performers use that to their advantage. My suggestion is to relate your tempo to the putt. slow way down on short putts as that is harder than speeding up on the longer ones. If you are a hitter then use the visual of a nail in the back of the ball. You can hit it hard or soft. Either way work on matching the feel of how you create speed to the putt.

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11 minutes ago, iceman1118 said:

I am heavily right eye dominant (not sure if that matters) but I have an extreme tendency to align right of my target. Driver all the way to putter. Stance could be closed, square or open, doesn’t matter. I just happen to be a right aimer. Something I could never fully understand. So when I step into the ball, I always feel like I am slightly looking over my front ( left) shoulder to see back to my target. 
 

As for ball position, it absolutely could be a factor. I am always told I have the ball too far forward. 

Cool try an open stance or move your eye line to the left,  with the ball on your back foot. That will tell you a lot.

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8 minutes ago, bargolf said:

Cool try an open stance or move your eye line to the left,  with the ball on your back foot. That will tell you a lot.

Ok two questions here..

 

1. How would an open stance help? Being a side cover wouldn’t that make my natural out to in path more extreme? All of the UGL stuff is offsetting matchups correct? So weaker grip, fade bias, closed stance for straight shot. 

 

2. can you explain move eyeline to the left?

Edited by iceman1118

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Titleist TSR2 3 Wood Mitsubishi Tensei 1K Black 85X

Titleist U 505 3 Iron Mitsubishi Tensei AV White 

Titleist 620 CB 4-P PX 6.5
Vokey 52.12F PX 6.0

Vokey 56.10S PX 6.0

Vokey 60.8M PX 6.0

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1 hour ago, bargolf said:

Hi Augster,

Here is my best guess on the ball roll issue. as to what causes it? Could be both or neither. Given that you see it on longer putts I am going with that you have more forward shaft lean or de-loft the putter on longer putts. This is common as we try to create speed. You are driving the ball into the turf (no matter how much you hit up on it) this causes the ball to actually bounce and the ball doesn't roll out as well. That you hit it long when you launch it correctly is also evidence of the de-loft. Having said that try this. Focus on hitting longer putts with a vertical shaft. Good or bad results aside it will help you decide what to do next.

 

 

Makes sense to me. 
 

I use a forward press which helps keep the head stable on all putts. I’m probably overdoing it on longer putts due to the longer swing length. Maybe? IDK. 
 

I’ll give this a shot. 
 

Any speed/lag drills you prefer to dial in long putt speeds? I’m going to have to practice, and it’ll be nice to have something to keep my mind engaged instead of just whacking putts across the greens.  
 

Thanks for the great thread!

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39 minutes ago, Augster said:

Makes sense to me. 
 

I use a forward press which helps keep the head stable on all putts. I’m probably overdoing it on longer putts due to the longer swing length. Maybe? IDK. 
 

I’ll give this a shot. 
 

Any speed/lag drills you prefer to dial in long putt speeds? I’m going to have to practice, and it’ll be nice to have something to keep my mind engaged instead of just whacking putts across the greens.  
 

Thanks for the great thread!

There are any number of speed drills to use. I think it is important to understand how you create speed before you decide on a specific drill. Random practice, as you said, does not work. Start here - Do I hit the ball? Or do I swing the putter?

 

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2 hours ago, iceman1118 said:

Ok two questions here..

 

1. How would an open stance help? Being a side cover wouldn’t that make my natural out to in path more extreme? All of the UGL stuff is offsetting matchups correct? So weaker grip, fade bias, closed stance for straight shot. 

 

2. can you explain move eyeline to the left?

Are we talking about putting or full swing? In putting I am looking for square at impact. You are closed. The farther back I play the ball the less likely I am to be closed at impact. If you aim right you are looking to the right. Turn your head so you look more left. Think about it. If you aim right and you should in theory miss right. So do you aim more left or react to the right miss by manipulating the golf club? UGL is not about "offsetting the matchups at all. It is about using your known tendencies to produce good golf shots. Side cover are predisposed to hitting fades. They must make changes to produce hooks. Can you do it another way? Sure. But the data is pretty clear you limit your ability to produce speed in full swing or control the face.

 

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2 hours ago, bargolf said:

There are any number of speed drills to use. I think it is important to understand how you create speed before you decide on a specific drill. Random practice, as you said, does not work. Start here - Do I hit the ball? Or do I swing the putter?

 

I feel I swing the putter. I don’t try to have any “hit” at all. I’m “trying” to swing the putter back and through and the ball just gets in the way. 
 

Thanks!

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2 hours ago, Augster said:

I feel I swing the putter. I don’t try to have any “hit” at all. I’m “trying” to swing the putter back and through and the ball just gets in the way. 
 

Thanks!

OK start with matching length of stroke to the length of the putt. Put a tee into the ground a distance behind the ball. Then make a stroke within that backswing length. How far does the ball roll? Do that for awhile until you are comfortable. Then change the stroke length and repeat. No target yet just stroke and distance. Get a feel for a short, a medium  length and a long stroke. Then add a target and see if you can match it up judging by stroke length only.

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