Putting Clarification

[bargolf]

On 10/7/2022 at 12:26 PM, nitram said:

I haven't seen it addressed (my apologies in advance if it has), but what about hovering the putter vs grounding?

Hello, Totally player preference in my mind. The key for me is to strike the equator of the ball with the vertical cog of the putter. So for many hovering the putter helps there, as you don't have to change plane form backswing to impact. I have also seen it help players have a more stable start to their backswing. Less wrist hinge to get the putter off the ground, for example.

 

[bargolf]

On 10/7/2022 at 12:40 PM, bladehunter said:

Mr Bruce.  Thank you in advance for giving your time and knowledge to us here.  I’m sure many like me have been reading every word and just haven’t commented yet.  
 

 

1. i wonder.   On using a line to aim in the ball. Do you ever see people who when using a line exhibit immediately  worse distance control ?  As in they fixate and in an attempt to roll that line they hit putts too hard.  
 

2.   This is a real question , but will sound half facetious.    Would you prefer a true roll as in end over end perfectly , or a wobbly roll that has a much higher make % ? And I’m speaking over time.  Does a true roll eventually have the potential of being best.  Or does the  slight wobbling hook stroke that is and feels natural make more sense if it makes putts and builds or maintains confidence .  
 

 

i make more putts with a toe down blade.  No ifs ands or butts. The stats say so.     But. It’s much harder and almost counter productive to try to use and line and roll that line  true. I’ve studied it recently and I’m hooking ( ever so slightly ) putts in.  It’s my natural , athletic feeling setup , and it just works.  
 

 

or I can use a mallet.   Say a lab mezz and easily get a perfect roll , time after time.  And make very little.   I try to adjust aim.  Then I miss on the low side.  Until it becomes a confidence killer , and down the dark hole I go.  

Hi blade hunter,

1. We have. For some it is a temporary problem, for others, the line does not work ever. 

2. There is no such thing as a wobbly roll, only that the markings on the ball do not match the section of the ball rolling end over end. By chance does your blade have a face insert or grooves of some sort. We have found for players whose path approaches the ball at a diagonal, which is most, the ball stays on the face too long and changes the orientation of the original line on the ball. So the line no longer matches the direction the ball rolls. Personally, I think the line can be very beneficial, but trying to have a perfect roll is counterproductive. The roll is always perfect, when it starts to roll is more important than match of line or logo to the roll. I could go on forever on this. The idea of spin or irregular roll is a marketing tool only.

3. With your pattern of stroke we have never hand any luck with arcs that tilt right like yours, using lie balanced or toe up putters. Simply, you need the toe needs to move faster than heel in your stroke. That particular putter tends to square itself to the direction the putter is moving. 

[bladehunter]

15 minutes ago, bargolf said:

Hi blade hunter,

1. We have. For some it is a temporary problem, for others, the line does not work ever. 

2. There is no such thing as a wobbly roll, only that the markings on the ball do not match the section of the ball rolling end over end. By chance does your blade have a face insert or grooves of some sort. We have found for players whose path approaches the ball at a diagonal, which is most, the ball stays on the face too long and changes the orientation of the original line on the ball. So the line no longer matches the direction the ball rolls. Personally, I think the line can be very beneficial, but trying to have a perfect roll is counterproductive. The roll is always perfect, when it starts to roll is more important than match of line or logo to the roll. I could go on forever on this. The idea of spin or irregular roll is a marketing tool only.

3. With your pattern of stroke we have never hand any luck with arcs that tilt right like yours, using lie balanced or toe up putters. Simply, you need the toe needs to move faster than heel in your stroke. That particular putter tends to square itself to the direction the putter is moving. 

Ah.  Perfect sense.  I hadn’t thought of the roll like that. 
 

 

it’s actually a stainless steel blade with very little face milling much less insert.  But it does have a design I contributed to where it’s a thin face and sound slot.  The sweet spot feels like a hybrid face where it has spring effect.  So what you’re saying is very possible.   It’s also heavily perimeter weighted with tungsten heel and toe taking the weight from 310g to 350g. 
 

i was fortunate enough to have a hand in its construction and tuned this to my feel tastes.  Also with the toe down heel mounted neck.  Basically an anser shaped head that flows and acts like a 8802 with perimeter weighing and a thin face.  
 

i built a stroke with that putter.  

so that explains why I can’t seem to make modern things work.  Maybe I cracked the code on accident and am being taken by marketing and fear of missing out ? 
 

im extremely left eye dominant.   And have been trying to use a line.  But it really truly doesn’t work.  I focus wrongly with it. Like I can’t work my way around it.    This was also with me trying to use a modern mallet.  So I’ve abandoned both and back to the aforementioned anser shape with toe down neck and sight dot.  I aim it a hair right , but I put it online most often according to any monitor. ( I’ve been on them all).  
 

I’ve been as low as +2 handicap for context and in the putting slump/rabbit hole I’ve ballooned back up to a 1.3 or so.  I decided to forgo the trappings of modern putters and go back to the one I designed for myself way back when.  In practice it just feels right.  So I assume that’s the correct path again and reps will lead me out of the hole.  

Edited October 11, 2022 by bladehunter

[Teekman]

First off, thank you very much for the time.

 

How the #$@# do I not push my putts.

 

Little background, former collegiate tennis player, who transitioned to golf very quickly after school just made the USGA Mid-Am and honestly striking the ball better than ever and will caveat I don’t get to practice ever playing only tournaments as my practice. My swing thoughts are simple on a full swing with an extreme emphasis on my left hand face control at impact … which perplexes me why when I mentally try to lead with the back of my left hand it results in a constant push? Would also like to add I have poor posture and am hunched over addressing the ball if that could also be an issue leading to pushes as well as little to no release with irons or putter for that matter.

 

Any tips or drills to fix the push would be great, and preferably ones I can do at work … lol.

 

Thanks again for your time.

 

[bargolf]

12 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Ah.  Perfect sense.  I hadn’t thought of the roll like that. 
 

 

it’s actually a stainless steel blade with very little face milling much less insert.  But it does have a design I contributed to where it’s a thin face and sound slot.  The sweet spot feels like a hybrid face where it has spring effect.  So what you’re saying is very possible.   It’s also heavily perimeter weighted with tungsten heel and toe taking the weight from 310g to 350g. 
 

i was fortunate enough to have a hand in its construction and tuned this to my feel tastes.  Also with the toe down heel mounted neck.  Basically an anser shaped head that flows and acts like a 8802 with perimeter weighing and a thin face.  
 

i built a stroke with that putter.  

so that explains why I can’t seem to make modern things work.  Maybe I cracked the code on accident and am being taken by marketing and fear of missing out ? 
 

im extremely left eye dominant.   And have been trying to use a line.  But it really truly doesn’t work.  I focus wrongly with it. Like I can’t work my way around it.    This was also with me trying to use a modern mallet.  So I’ve abandoned both and back to the aforementioned anser shape with toe down neck and sight dot.  I aim it a hair right , but I put it online most often according to any monitor. ( I’ve been on them all).  
 

I’ve been as low as +2 handicap for context and in the putting slump/rabbit hole I’ve ballooned back up to a 1.3 or so.  I decided to forgo the trappings of modern putters and go back to the one I designed for myself way back when.  In practice it just feels right.  So I assume that’s the correct path again and reps will lead me out of the hole.  

We call it Profile 1,4 or 7 in my system. Inside down the line. The other thing that comes to mind from the Mezz comparison is the Mezz might launch it higher.  NO interference t the ground at impact. If you lean the shaft with your blade you might de-loft the putter enough to pinch the ball into the ground at impact. This resistance from the ground changes the line orientaion. Probably not worth rebuilding your strategy to have the line roll end over end. But, it still might help for set up and alignment and if you know why the line doesnt match roll, maybe it does ‘t matter.

[bargolf]

59 minutes ago, Teekman said:

First off, thank you very much for the time.

 

How the #$@# do I not push my putts.

 

Little background, former collegiate tennis player, who transitioned to golf very quickly after school just made the USGA Mid-Am and honestly striking the ball better than ever and will caveat I don’t get to practice ever playing only tournaments as my practice. My swing thoughts are simple on a full swing with an extreme emphasis on my left hand face control at impact … which perplexes me why when I mentally try to lead with the back of my left hand it results in a constant push? Would also like to add I have poor posture and am hunched over addressing the ball if that could also be an issue leading to pushes as well as little to no release with irons or putter for that matter.

 

Any tips or drills to fix the push would be great, and preferably ones I can do at work … lol.

 

Thanks again for your time.

 

Hi! As a lead arm and hand motion source it sounds like a grip orientation issue. Experiment with stronger or weaker left hand grips. If you have a backup putter put a round grip on it no reminder. This eliminates a grip bias and my guess is you will find the appropriate orientation to eliminate the push.

[Mr Fade]

I did take a look at your 9 profiles, excellent theory by the way! I struggle to notice the difference between profile 1 and 4. Can you elaborate please? Both takes the putter back from the inside and deliver it on down the line. These are the two closest to my own stroke. However, I deliver the face a smidgen open and exit outside/to the right. I guess it is a result of many years of aiming to the left and holding off the release.

[Jersey golfer]

Bruce:

 

I am right handed and left eye dominant. My miss tends to be a pull to the left. Moving the ball forward helps a little but I still have trouble seeing the line. Tried a line on the ball and it just doesn't seem to work for me. What style putter would you recommend and how does one get in touch with you for lessons?

[mystic]

On 9/26/2022 at 1:40 PM, getitdaily said:

Or just ask him a ?

 

Bruce knows more about putting, putters, and marrying the two than anyone on these forums....

 

This is like Michael Phelps asking if anyone has questions about swimming...

Bruce is as knowledgeable as any of the top instructors.  No more burnt edges. (See what I did there?)

[bargolf]

On 11/5/2022 at 3:37 AM, Mr Fade said:

I did take a look at your 9 profiles, excellent theory by the way! I struggle to notice the difference between profile 1 and 4. Can you elaborate please? Both takes the putter back from the inside and deliver it on down the line. These are the two closest to my own stroke. However, I deliver the face a smidgen open and exit outside/to the right. I guess it is a result of many years of aiming to the left and holding off the release.

Hello.

 

The difference between Profile 1 and Profile 4 is the player' distance from the ball. The farther you are from the ball in theory the shallower the putt plane. The shallower the plane the more rotation is required to remain consistent to the path.

[Mr Fade]

I have now read a lot of posts on your blog, which I enjoy tremendously. It is a great place to learn! I notice that you are always coming back to the questions of toe hang and head weight. Often with a hint that going with a lighter weight and more toe hang might be a good solution for certain (many) players. With that in mind, it would be very interesting to know your take on manufacturers with another focus, for example LAB (lie angle balance) and Sacks Parente (ultra low balance point). Do they contradict your theories or can they be "in sync"? Thanks!

[nosil]

@bargolf Listened to your interview on Be Better Golf; great listen and so much information,  and you talked about how the one things that players should really work on is center contact which would improve both line and distance control.    One of the things we hear claimed by the manufacturers of upgraded/graphite putter shafts is that they improve face contact.    I seem to remember that years ago you didn't feel as though there was any benefit over traditional putter shafts.   Was wondering if your opinion has changed or if you have found any data to indicate that these graphite shafts provide some benefit to a players stroke, distance control,  or face contact.   

 

 

[bargolf]

On 12/7/2022 at 7:22 AM, Mr Fade said:

I have now read a lot of posts on your blog, which I enjoy tremendously. It is a great place to learn! I notice that you are always coming back to the questions of toe hang and head weight. Often with a hint that going with a lighter weight and more toe hang might be a good solution for certain (many) players. With that in mind, it would be very interesting to know your take on manufacturers with another focus, for example LAB (lie angle balance) and Sacks Parente (ultra low balance point). Do they contradict your theories or can they be "in sync"? Thanks!

Hi Mr Fade,

 

I apologize for not responding to your post. We have been able to indentify the requirements of any putter design to the player using the system. For example the two examples you mention have completely different requirements of the player to succeed. lie angle balance work best when the angles of the players posture do not contradict with lie angle of the putter. Think rotation around the spine. The putter is balance for a plane of motion parallel to the shaft angle. If you cannot produce it the face twists. In the Parente the opposite is the case. That design style is controlled by the hands and how the arms react to the weight. If you used the LAB technique with the Parente putter weight balance you could see a good bit of lag as you transition from back to forward. So what fits your motion sequence best?

[bargolf]

On 12/9/2022 at 8:07 PM, nosil said:

@bargolf Listened to your interview on Be Better Golf; great listen and so much information,  and you talked about how the one things that players should really work on is center contact which would improve both line and distance control.    One of the things we hear claimed by the manufacturers of upgraded/graphite putter shafts is that they improve face contact.    I seem to remember that years ago you didn't feel as though there was any benefit over traditional putter shafts.   Was wondering if your opinion has changed or if you have found any data to indicate that these graphite shafts provide some benefit to a players stroke, distance control,  or face contact.   

 

 

Hey! Sorry for the late response. Whenever I research the "how" I come up empty. The feel changes but the transfer of energy to the ball remains the same regardless of material.

 

[golftech]

2 hours ago, bargolf said:

Hey! Sorry for the late response. Whenever I research the "how" I come up empty. The feel changes but the transfer of energy to the ball remains the same regardless of material.

 

Bruce, is this more a matter of matching shaft  flex & feel with stroke preferences.  For instance, I grew up with flexible, pencil thin shaft on an old Spalding HBA.  With all of these new, very stiff putter shafts I lose feel and my rhythm consistency in my stroke suffers.  

[bargolf]

I think so. We believe you built a rhythm and tempo based on feedback from the putter. 

[Rbsiedsc]

23 hours ago, bargolf said:

Hi Mr Fade,

 

I apologize for not responding to your post. We have been able to indentify the requirements of any putter design to the player using the system. For example the two examples you mention have completely different requirements of the player to succeed. lie angle balance work best when the angles of the players posture do not contradict with lie angle of the putter. Think rotation around the spine. The putter is balance for a plane of motion parallel to the shaft angle. If you cannot produce it the face twists. In the Parente the opposite is the case. That design style is controlled by the hands and how the arms react to the weight. If you used the LAB technique with the Parente putter weight balance you could see a good bit of lag as you transition from back to forward. So what fits your motion sequence best?

How would one know what fits their motion the best? Won't a golfer adjust their motion to fit the putter so it may be hard to see what will truly work for them?

[Obee]

On 9/27/2022 at 6:15 AM, bargolf said:

Cool try an open stance or move your eye line to the left,  with the ball on your back foot. That will tell you a lot.

 

I am extreme right eye dominant and the only way straight looks straight to me is when the ball is extreme forward in my stance. Completely changed my putting. I now average 28.x putts per round where I used to be 31ish.

[scooterhd2]

Bruce,

 

How do you feel about changing putting grips based on distance? I've made great strides in my putting in the last 18 months and have never felt more confident over the ball. I use a grip with both index fingers along the sides of the grip, and actually wrap my right hand fingers around the the index of the left. This image isnt it exactly, but the closest I can find with my drawn on mods. Really feels connected to me and that the face is always controlled. The problem is on really long putts, im taking outside 40 feet it just seems I cant easily generate the speed, and I'll force it and end up making a poor strike on the ball. Often low in the face and just loses a ton of speed. I've adapted to keep the left index finger wrapped around the grip like the rest of the fingers on the left hand, and just keeping the right index finger along the grip. This allows some wrist hinge and a longer stroke that feels more natural. Maybe not as accurate but the speed is better which seems more important on a long lag putt.

 

Questioning being, do you stick with works? If 2 grips is good use 2? Or are my problems a sign of an issue with my grip and I need to keep working on a singular solution?

 

[golftech]

20 hours ago, Obee said:

 

I am extreme right eye dominant and the only way straight looks straight to me is when the ball is extreme forward in my stance. Completely changed my putting. I now average 28.x putts per round where I used to be 31ish.

Obee, I have similar straight line optics and putt in a rear post position with my head back and inside.  Bruce has been helpful in getting to that setup with adjustments to ensure putter arc is appropriate.  But now I see a straight line, not left, for the first time since my junior days when I setup more like Nicklaus!  

[srsbeans]

On 10/11/2022 at 12:53 PM, bargolf said:

Hello, Totally player preference in my mind. The key for me is to strike the equator of the ball with the vertical cog of the putter. So for many hovering the putter helps there, as you don't have to change plane form backswing to impact. I have also seen it help players have a more stable start to their backswing. Less wrist hinge to get the putter off the ground, for example.

 

If grounding the putter do you expect to see the ball slightly toward the toe at setup? (assuming the putter sweet spot will need to come out to come up during the stroke?)

[bargolf]

On 1/11/2023 at 1:20 PM, Rbsiedsc said:

How would one know what fits their motion the best? Won't a golfer adjust their motion to fit the putter so it may be hard to see what will truly work for them?

Trial and error is the most common way. Or they go to an instructor who understands biomechanics

 

[bargolf]

On 1/12/2023 at 6:13 PM, Obee said:

 

I am extreme right eye dominant and the only way straight looks straight to me is when the ball is extreme forward in my stance. Completely changed my putting. I now average 28.x putts per round where I used to be 31ish.

Obee - do you tilt your head to reposition the right eye?

[bargolf]

On 2/1/2023 at 9:21 AM, srsbeans said:

If grounding the putter do you expect to see the ball slightly toward the toe at setup? (assuming the putter sweet spot will need to come out to come up during the stroke?)

Often works that way. The problem is how much you lift and when. Complicates things in my opinion.

[bargolf]

On 12/7/2022 at 7:22 AM, Mr Fade said:

I have now read a lot of posts on your blog, which I enjoy tremendously. It is a great place to learn! I notice that you are always coming back to the questions of toe hang and head weight. Often with a hint that going with a lighter weight and more toe hang might be a good solution for certain (many) players. With that in mind, it would be very interesting to know your take on manufacturers with another focus, for example LAB (lie angle balance) and Sacks Parente (ultra low balance point). Do they contradict your theories or can they be "in sync"? Thanks!

Thanks for reading the blog. I think every putter has value if it finds the correct player. Lie angle balance requires some very specific posture requirements. You have to match how you move to the lie angle otherwise you find you have a pull miss. 

Parente putters are very much for hands and arms swingers. with big muscle stroke the putter tends to lag. Stroke needs to start in the hands and the body reacts. The opposite of what works well in the lie angle balanced putters.

[bargolf]

On 1/12/2023 at 6:56 PM, scooterhd2 said:

Bruce,

 

How do you feel about changing putting grips based on distance? I've made great strides in my putting in the last 18 months and have never felt more confident over the ball. I use a grip with both index fingers along the sides of the grip, and actually wrap my right hand fingers around the the index of the left. This image isnt it exactly, but the closest I can find with my drawn on mods. Really feels connected to me and that the face is always controlled. The problem is on really long putts, im taking outside 40 feet it just seems I cant easily generate the speed, and I'll force it and end up making a poor strike on the ball. Often low in the face and just loses a ton of speed. I've adapted to keep the left index finger wrapped around the grip like the rest of the fingers on the left hand, and just keeping the right index finger along the grip. This allows some wrist hinge and a longer stroke that feels more natural. Maybe not as accurate but the speed is better which seems more important on a long lag putt.

 

Questioning being, do you stick with works? If 2 grips is good use 2? Or are my problems a sign of an issue with my grip and I need to keep working on a singular solution?

 

I think it helps to have different strategies for different length options. It helps you focus along with the mechanical assistance.

 

[bargolf]

On 11/5/2022 at 3:37 AM, Mr Fade said:

I did take a look at your 9 profiles, excellent theory by the way! I struggle to notice the difference between profile 1 and 4. Can you elaborate please? Both takes the putter back from the inside and deliver it on down the line. These are the two closest to my own stroke. However, I deliver the face a smidgen open and exit outside/to the right. I guess it is a result of many years of aiming to the left and holding off the release.

The difference between Profile 1 and 4 is the stroke plane. 1 is more upright and the player is closer to the ball. 4 is off the ball slightly and has a shallower stroke plane. & has the shallowest stroke plane and farthest form the ball.

 

[GBGolfingtons]

@bargolf assuming the same overall weight, does a counterbalance promote a stroke starting with the arms and hands?

 

many thanks 

[bargolf]

We think it is better suited for a connectedarms to chest core rotation stroke. Any use of hands or wrists is exaggerated by the counter weight.

 

[getitdaily]

If you're going to error with shoulder alignment...better to error open or closed?