Crowded downswing

[titleistfore]

 

 

Can’t seem to nail down what’s causing the lack of space in the downswing. Any advice would be much appreciated!

Edited September 27, 2022 by titleistfore

[tthomasgolfer605]

Do you not like the look of it or are you hitting it all over the place? 

[TheDeanAbides]

You’re early extending. @Valtiel will hopefully be along to show you why soon, but quickly I’ll say that you need to understand how your hips work in transition. Yours move towards the ball. 
 

Try this as a feel. Get to the top and make your first move a small bump of your left glute back behind you as if you’re going to sit into it. Add in the Justin Rose drill and you’ll have loads more room.

 

 

[Valtiel]

Great smooth and simple swing. What you're feeling is your right side encroaching on your hand space in the downswing:



You're a little humpy at impact because you aren't fully unweighting your trail side in transition and committing to rotating using just your lead side. It isn't actually compromising your hand position much, but because it is working in towards it you're likely feeling that space rapidly decreasing in the downswing. Notice Adam's right knee above and how at impact it's basically turned away from the camera, down the target line, whereas yours shoots out diagonally to the right, mostly towards the ball. This is one of those intuitive movements that needs to be unlearned. Our brain defaults to using our dominant side in transition until we're trained (or train ourselves) to resist that default reaction. Here is a cool visual as supplemental:



This is Patrick Cantlay's pressure plate readings with a driver. The bottom bar shows left and right foot pressure movement and the bars on the side show heel/toe pressure. Frame 1 is right before the top of the backswing (75 back foot, 25 front foot), Frame 2 is right at the completion of the backswing (almost 50/50 between both feet, already starting to shift forward), and Frame 3 shows the first few moments of the club starting down (21 back foot, 79 front foot). That big pressure shift into the lead side comes with what is basically an abandonment of using the right side for any type of rotation or power. Moments later in the downswing (hands only just reaching the height of the shoulders), we have this:

 

Barely a third of the way into the downswing and the right side is done, no force or rotation at all and everything is being driven by the lead side now.

This is with a driver of course so the numbers are going to be higher and a little more dramatic than which a mid iron, but the principle is the same with all full swings. Next time you're out, try resisting any urge in transition to use your right side for anything other than turning inwards, down the target line, to help facilitate the left side pushing back to create rotation.

[TheDeanAbides]

21 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Great smooth and simple swing. What you're feeling is your right side encroaching on your hand space in the downswing:



You're a little humpy at impact because you aren't fully unweighting your trail side in transition and committing to rotating using just your lead side. It isn't actually compromising your hand position much, but because it is working in towards it you're likely feeling that space rapidly decreasing in the downswing. Notice Adam's right knee above and how at impact it's basically turned away from the camera, down the target line, whereas yours shoots out diagonally to the right, mostly towards the ball. This is one of those intuitive movements that needs to be unlearned. Our brain defaults to using our dominant side in transition until we're trained (or train ourselves) to resist that default reaction. Here is a cool visual as supplemental:



This is Patrick Cantlay's pressure plate readings with a driver. The bottom bar shows left and right foot pressure movement and the bars on the side show heel/toe pressure. Frame 1 is right before the top of the backswing (75 back foot, 25 front foot), Frame 2 is right at the completion of the backswing (almost 50/50 between both feet, already starting to shift forward), and Frame 3 shows the first few moments of the club starting down (21 back foot, 79 front foot). That big pressure shift into the lead side comes with what is basically an abandonment of using the right side for any type of rotation or power. Moments later in the downswing (hands only just reaching the height of the shoulders), we have this:

 

Barely a third of the way into the downswing and the right side is done, no force or rotation at all and everything is being driven by the lead side now.

This is with a driver of course so the numbers are going to be higher and a little more dramatic than which a mid iron, but the principle is the same with all full swings. Next time you're out, try resisting any urge in transition to use your right side for anything other than turning inwards, down the target line, to help facilitate the left side pushing back to create rotation.

You never disappoint. 🙂

[Valtiel]

43 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

You never disappoint. 🙂

I was actually in the middle the reply when I saw the little notif pop up that you had tagged me, hah.

[titleistfore]

8 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Do you not like the look of it or are you hitting it all over the place? 

Mostly just consistency of ball flights, and every now and then the big right miss creeps in. Think it's mostly a product of relying on timing too much. 

[titleistfore]

7 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Great smooth and simple swing. What you're feeling is your right side encroaching on your hand space in the downswing:



You're a little humpy at impact because you aren't fully unweighting your trail side in transition and committing to rotating using just your lead side. It isn't actually compromising your hand position much, but because it is working in towards it you're likely feeling that space rapidly decreasing in the downswing. Notice Adam's right knee above and how at impact it's basically turned away from the camera, down the target line, whereas yours shoots out diagonally to the right, mostly towards the ball. This is one of those intuitive movements that needs to be unlearned. Our brain defaults to using our dominant side in transition until we're trained (or train ourselves) to resist that default reaction. Here is a cool visual as supplemental:



This is Patrick Cantlay's pressure plate readings with a driver. The bottom bar shows left and right foot pressure movement and the bars on the side show heel/toe pressure. Frame 1 is right before the top of the backswing (75 back foot, 25 front foot), Frame 2 is right at the completion of the backswing (almost 50/50 between both feet, already starting to shift forward), and Frame 3 shows the first few moments of the club starting down (21 back foot, 79 front foot). That big pressure shift into the lead side comes with what is basically an abandonment of using the right side for any type of rotation or power. Moments later in the downswing (hands only just reaching the height of the shoulders), we have this:

 

Barely a third of the way into the downswing and the right side is done, no force or rotation at all and everything is being driven by the lead side now.

This is with a driver of course so the numbers are going to be higher and a little more dramatic than which a mid iron, but the principle is the same with all full swings. Next time you're out, try resisting any urge in transition to use your right side for anything other than turning inwards, down the target line, to help facilitate the left side pushing back to create rotation.

Awesome, I really appreciate the insight! I was leaning that direction with the weight shift but couldn't exactly pinpoint where/when that was happening. The visual with Cantlay's trace really helps place a visual with what I need to be feeling. I feel I rely on timing more than I should and struggle with the big right miss every now and then, which I think getting more space and rotation will help clean that up. 

[Scottbox]

Also could some more right hip depth help at the top help here?

[ac6]

1 hour ago, Scottbox said:

Also could some more right hip depth help at the top help here?

 

Only to the extent that it would help OP have the feeling of pressure further back on the heels, IMO. More right hip depth plus the early extension issue might result in him never being able to get that pressure into the left side fully 

[Valtiel]

12 hours ago, titleistfore said:

Awesome, I really appreciate the insight! I was leaning that direction with the weight shift but couldn't exactly pinpoint where/when that was happening. The visual with Cantlay's trace really helps place a visual with what I need to be feeling. I feel I rely on timing more than I should and struggle with the big right miss every now and then, which I think getting more space and rotation will help clean that up. 

Cheers! I mostly wanted to use the emphasis on weight distribution to highlight how inactive the trail side becomes in the downswing. It looks like you *might* be a little late on this transfer, but that's harder to say from a DTL view and we'd need to see face on to say for sure. The feeling of being crowded and relying too heavily on timing fits with all this though. When the lower body is a little late in transition AND is coming towards the ball too much you get that "short freeway merge" kind of feeling where things are converging quickly in a way that doesn't feel right. Shifting how you use your lower body, both the when (earlier in the overall sequence) and how (quiet trail side/active lead side working back) is what will reduce those feelings.
 

10 hours ago, Scottbox said:

Also could some more right hip depth help at the top help here?

 

8 hours ago, ac6 said:

 

Only to the extent that it would help OP have the feeling of pressure further back on the heels, IMO. More right hip depth plus the early extension issue might result in him never being able to get that pressure into the left side fully 

Agreed with @ac6, and i'd add that the understanding of both how to correctly use the lead side in transition and how NOT to use the trail side is first necessary, otherwise you can have the scenario where more hip depth going back just leads to a stronger "right hip coming forward" move in transition. Once you know what you're setting up for in transition then that can better inform what happens with the right hip going back.

[slytown]

I'm a big advocate of using set up and club path as fixes. The position and back swing look fine to me. I like your tempo as well. I think you are getting slightly overactive with your body in the downswing and this causes the humping/crowding effect near the ball. You already lower, so trying to actively sit or put pressure into your right side could make things worse. I think if you do something like the Justin Rose drill you could get the club down earlier while on your right side and then all you need to do is turn through the shot in order to square the face.

 

A face on view might help.