Backswing too wide?

[PattyB1986]

I’ve always struggled to compress the ball. I don’t tend to flip or scoop but I find my hands are always only level (or slightly ahead) of the ball at impact. My ball flight therefore is usually on the high side and I rarely create a divot. I don’t think it affects my distance much - my stock 7 iron carries 170-180yards. I don’t tend to chunk or top the ball much but I tend to shank and pull hook when I’m out of rhythm. 
 

I’ve posted a face on and DTL 7 iron -

 I lose my angles big time on the face on. Is this from poor sequence and getting stuck on the downswing or is it because I’m too wide on the takeaway and I have too far to get back to the ball? I would be grateful for some insight! My handicap is ~22.

 

 

 

 

 

[Valtiel]

Pretty darn good swing for a 22hdcp. Your main problem is a sequencing issue causing what Monte Schienblum (long time instructor here) calls the 68 Ballerina (hyperlinked for your convenience).



Per the link, your lower body has significantly outraced your hands which from this position down to impact requires a lot of hand flipping action to catch the club up which leads to all sorts of inconsistencies and strike issues. Tiger pictured next to you to show where your hands and arms should be at this position in the swing (P6).

As far as why, a couple possibilities. You're making what might be considered to be too long of a backswing considering your hips are firing pretty quick. You'll want to experiment with either a shorter, more compact backswing or feeling like your hips start going a tick later than they are now. You might even need a combination of the two.

[PattyB1986]

Thanks for the reply @Valtiel, much appreciated. 
 

I often see that my hips start going before I’ve even finished my backswing. I don’t even realise I’m doing it - it’s not a conscious process. Would a Hideki pause at the top help? I see one of Monte’s fixes for this is driving the right elbow - I’ve tried this numerous times and it tends to open the club face massively and then I instinctively come over the top to square it and usually end up shanking it or having a weak fade. I also find it really dips my right shoulder as well and I struggle to release the club at impact. I don’t know if I’m doing it correctly?
 

My handicap is high because my game is plagued by inconsistency - I’ll hit 4-5 pars a round and the odd birdie but that will be offset with  a couple of 7s and 8s. It’s almost always unforced errors - I’ll be sitting pretty with a good drive but will then shank a straightforward  90yard pitch from the fairway out of bounds (major issue for me with wedges), pull the next shot into the bunker, take 2 to get out and 2 putt. Then the next hole I’ll pure a 5 iron on a 200 yard par 3 and  make an easy par 🤦🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️
My wedge play really costs me. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by PattyB1986

[slytown]

This is something I do and it comes from swinging hard as a junior. I get my hips wayyyy too far forward and have to flip at impact. I have no space to turn. I think your fix is easy.

 

The downswing is 3 elements: movement towards the target, shoulder rotation, and arms coming down. If you start the arms down first, the other two should sync up better. If you are hitting big right misses, my guess is you are having to flip at impact in order to square the clubface. If you look at P6, your hands are way behind your body. You then have to flip at impact, which causes those inconsistencies.

 

I would say don't try to hold lag or get hip rotation. Think of those things as consequences of a good hand and arm path starting your transition.

[PattyB1986]

28 minutes ago, slytown said:

This is something I do and it comes from swinging hard as a junior. I get my hips wayyyy too far forward and have to flip at impact. I have no space to turn. I think your fix is easy.

 

The downswing is 3 elements: movement towards the target, shoulder rotation, and arms coming down. If you start the arms down first, the other two should sync up better. If you are hitting big right misses, my guess is you are having to flip at impact in order to square the clubface. If you look at P6, your hands are way behind your body. You then have to flip at impact, which causes those inconsistencies.

 

I would say don't try to hold lag or get hip rotation. Think of those things as consequences of a good hand and arm path starting your transition.

Thanks for your reply. My big misses are the duck hook and shanking. I rarely push out right much (sometimes with driver). 
 

I have  tried swinging down with the arms and keeping back to target but I have found in the past that the club shaft either pitches steep and I come OTT or it shallows out big time and I hit 10 degrees + from the inside. When I’m swinging well I can hit a powerful draw but it goes to pot if my timing is off. I think I may just pause slightly at the top and try and get the arms down in the initial movement because my instinct is always to try and hit the ball from the top. 

[slytown]

You should hit the ball from the top, just work on the arms coming down without moving your lower body. Problem is every video says to get on your left side and rotate but not everyone needs that instruction. If you can consistently get the arms down early, then u dont have to do anything with your hands to square the face. One reason u have a draw is that u have trained yourself to to turn your hands over at impact. That can work, but it makes your swing inconsistent.

[golfarb1]

Look at the above  stills of Tiger and you  that Valtiel has provided 

Note the primary differences 

1. Tiger has started to shift weight to the outside of his left foot -you have not

2. Tiger’s pelvis as indicated by the fly on his pants is already started to open . Yours had not 

3. The outside of Tigers left hip is over the outside of his left foot. Yours is over the inside of your left foot

 

Because of these issues you have lost considerable lag by the time that your hands even with your right thigh 

 

To start you need to improve your footwork 

a. Flare your left foot more towards the target  at setup. this will increase the range of motion of external left hip rotation going down

b. Place a medium size  sponge underneath the Outside middle of your left foot .During transition pressure the sponge to start your downswing -reference the “ force pedal “ videos on YouTube 

c. Place a rod in the ground about 10 feet targetwise  in front on your left hip and at about a 45 degree angle . In transition feel as if you are moving your left hip  DIAGONALLY towards that rod

 

Drills

1.Take the club back to 7:30  with very little wrist set and stop momentarily . Then hit the ball. The lack of wrist set and distance of your backswing will force you to CONCENTRATE on ROTATING  your pelvis and ribcage 

Then do the same but set your wrists more . Again you will be forced out to rotate your pelvis and rib cage , but thus time you will be able to utilize the lever of your wrists 

2.PUNISHER or Extended club drill .

Stick an alignment rod into the hole in the butt of club and setup with alignment rod against your left side. Start the club head straight back and hit the ball. You will be forced to rotate your ribcage going down or else you will hit your left side 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by golfarb1

[PattyB1986]

Thanks for the replies, that’s really helpful. @golfarb1 I always thought flaring the leas foot would encourage firing the hips too much?
 

I still can’t quite conceptualise point c - moving hips diagonally towards the rod. Is that moving the lead hip up and out?

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, PattyB1986 said:

Thanks for the replies, that’s really helpful. @golfarb1 I always thought flaring the leas foot would encourage firing the hips too much?
 

I still can’t quite conceptualise point c - moving hips diagonally towards the rod. Is that moving the lead hip up and out?

I'm pretty sure point C is a drill to work something I just broke down in LuckyDutch's thread just a minute ago. Have a look at the bottom of that post for the bits about opposing lower/upper body forces and where the lower half is supposed to be firing (diagonally AWAY from the ball).

[golfarb1]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I'm pretty sure point C is a drill to work something I just broke down in LuckyDutch's thread just a minute ago. Have a look at the bottom of that post for the bits about opposing lower/upper body forces and where the lower half is supposed to be firing (diagonally AWAY from the ball).

This “ 45 degree diagonal drill “point C,  is not only similar to what you  broke down , it was Mr . Defrancisco ‘s suggestion a dozen years ago 

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by golfarb1

[golfarb1]

On 10/7/2022 at 4:43 PM, PattyB1986 said:

Thanks for the replies, that’s really helpful. @golfarb1 I always thought flaring the leas foot would encourage firing the hips too much?
 

I still can’t quite conceptualise point c - moving hips diagonally towards the rod. Is that moving the lead hip up and out?

An addendum to c. The 45 degree diagonal drill- place the rod both in front of your left hip AND at a 45 degree angle to your left hip. The term firing the hips too much is so confusing as to be meaningless . Let me describe the anatomical movements of the lower body in easier  to understand details . 
First,  movement of the hips refers to movement of the top of each thigh bone within each respective hip joint . 
What golf teachers and golfers describe as firing or turning of the hips is really firing or turning of the pelvis . The pelvis connects to the spine at the Sacrioliac joints ( SI ) on either side of the lower spine . The SI joints  are designed for stability and weight bearing and NOT for movement, so the pelvis can NOT rotate much on its own  . How does the pelvis rotate  ? Pelvis rotational movement is dependent on the position of each hip socket . And the position of each hip socket  is in turn dependent on how straight the legs are  and the position of the lead knee . 
Flaring the lead foot increases the range of motion of the lead knee toward the target . The greater the motion of  lead knee the more that the pelvis can rotate in the downswing . Please experiment with flaring your lead foot , to having no flare of your lead foot to actually having your lead foot turned in ( pigeon towed) and rotate your pelvis with each foot flare . You will notice that your pelvis will be very restricted while your lead foot is pigeon towed , while your pelvis can rotate the most when your lead foot is flared 
When pros refer to “too much firing of the hips “they are usually referring to too much 

slide or lateral motion of the pelvis, resulting in the arms trailing too far behind the pelvis  . 
Movements of the pelvis should be a combination of BOTH lateral movements very late in the backswing AND very early in transition and rotational  movements  during the rest of the downswing . Pressuring the sponge with the outside of your lead foot will help with this lateral movement early in transition while the 45 degree diagonal visual toward the rod will result in rotation of your pelvis . 

Included below is a still showing Moe Norman’s transition . Note  particularly how his lead knee has moved laterally and rotated from inside his lead foot to over his lead foot and. how his lead leg has. moved to a more vertical position 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by golfarb1

[PattyB1986]

Thanks for the reply. Two questions. Firstly, in the backswing is hip rotation controlled by the left knew turning in and the right hip pulling back? Secondly, if the left hip is pulling diagonally from the ball in the downswing - is there any lateral shift of the upper body? If so how do you keep your head and sternum behind the ball?

[golfarb1]

Remember , we are referring to movements of the pelvis , not the hips .The hips are important because they are enablers of the position of the hip sockets , but it is movements of the pelvis which are of prime focus 

Pelvic rotation is controlled by the position of the hip sockets . BENDING  the front knee  going back allows the front hip socket to move both away from the target line and towards the ball; at the same time the trail hip socket is moving both towards the target and away from the target line ( deep) because of the straightening of the trail knee. 
SO the ANSWER is YES to your FIRST QUESTION . 
 

I like to define the position of the upper body as C7 or the bottom cervical vertebrae of the NECK where it attaches to the spine . IT is not unusual for top golfers to rotate their head in order to make a full shoulder turn .While they rotate their head , many also move C7 slightly laterally  from the target. At the end of backswing , it is not uncommon for top ball strikers to move their sternum ( bottom of their spine) slightly toward the target . In fact this slight lateral movement of the lower spine toward the spine is the key to really compress the ball. At the same time that top golfers move their lower spine towards the target at the end of the backswing  , they also tend to move their heads laterally BACK TOWARDs  the target to their ORIGINAL starting position . 
So the answer to your second question is more nuanced.If golfers move C7 laterally away from the target  going back , the tendency is that they will move C7  laterally TOWARDS  the target in their late backswing /early transition . But this lateral movement of C7 towards the target will usually not result in C7 moving beyond its starting position . 
And any lateral movement of C7 will be influenced by the club and by a players inherent tendencies . With short irons/wedges there is usually very little lateral movement ; with a driver it is much more common.

Some players like Jack Nicklaus use to practice with someone holding his head ; he had virtually no lateral movement at C7 either going back or going down . Other players had/have much more lateral movement at C7. 
 

 

[Aspiring-Coach]

On 9/27/2022 at 3:32 PM, PattyB1986 said:

I’ve always struggled to compress the ball. I don’t tend to flip or scoop but I find my hands are always only level (or slightly ahead) of the ball at impact. My ball flight therefore is usually on the high side and I rarely create a divot. I don’t think it affects my distance much - my stock 7 iron carries 170-180yards. I don’t tend to chunk or top the ball much but I tend to shank and pull hook when I’m out of rhythm. 
 

I’ve posted a face on and DTL 7 iron -

 I lose my angles big time on the face on. Is this from poor sequence and getting stuck on the downswing or is it because I’m too wide on the takeaway and I have too far to get back to the ball? I would be grateful for some insight! My handicap is ~22.

 

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They say "if you can't feel it then you can't heal it" and it seems like you're feeling like your backswing is too wide. If you take a couple swings right now, what does that feel like to you to be too wide? What's the most obvious thing that jumps out to you that gives you that feeling?

[PattyB1986]

5 hours ago, Aspiring-Coach said:

They say "if you can't feel it then you can't heal it" and it seems like you're feeling like your backswing is too wide. If you take a couple swings right now, what does that feel like to you to be too wide? What's the most obvious thing that jumps out to you that gives you that feeling?

Well it’s mainly because I’ve always started the takeaway by pushing the club out wide with my arms and shoulders in order to get width. I tried to have a narrower takeaway tonight with an early right arm bend  with a shorter backswing (which to me felt like I was whipping the club way inside) and I’d have to say my ball strike was far better. I tried to be more conscious of my foot work in transition and downswing. My swing path coming into the ball was steeper and at times probably slightly out to in  (I’m usually way too much from the inside) so the duck hook was eradicated. Unfortunately I don’t have a front on so I can’t say if the lag situation is better.

 

 

[Aspiring-Coach]

On 10/10/2022 at 4:44 PM, PattyB1986 said:

Well it’s mainly because I’ve always started the takeaway by pushing the club out wide with my arms and shoulders in order to get width. I tried to have a narrower takeaway tonight with an early right arm bend  with a shorter backswing (which to me felt like I was whipping the club way inside) and I’d have to say my ball strike was far better. I tried to be more conscious of my foot work in transition and downswing. My swing path coming into the ball was steeper and at times probably slightly out to in  (I’m usually way too much from the inside) so the duck hook was eradicated. Unfortunately I don’t have a front on so I can’t say if the lag situation is better.

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When I reread your initial post, you said that you have a trouble compressing the ball but you're still getting the distance you want. It's only when you feel out of rhythm that you start duck hooking or shanking them. How do you know when you're out of rhythm. Where do you feel that the most?

[slytown]

On 10/10/2022 at 4:44 PM, PattyB1986 said:

Well it’s mainly because I’ve always started the takeaway by pushing the club out wide with my arms and shoulders in order to get width. I tried to have a narrower takeaway tonight with an early right arm bend  with a shorter backswing (which to me felt like I was whipping the club way inside) and I’d have to say my ball strike was far better. I tried to be more conscious of my foot work in transition and downswing. My swing path coming into the ball was steeper and at times probably slightly out to in  (I’m usually way too much from the inside) so the duck hook was eradicated. Unfortunately I don’t have a front on so I can’t say if the lag situation is better.

 

 

Looks pretty good. I would just work on that lift in the backswing. Work on keeping the left shoulder down. This will make it easier to release the club in transition earlier. You still come in slightly steep. Dont be afraid to release that club from the top. Try and feel like your arms and hands go past your torso and finish left, around your body. The less you move laterally, the better.

Edited May 20, 2023 by slytown