Yes, the “leaf rule” is actually a real thing.

[davep043]

8 minutes ago, jomatty said:

Yeah, you would lose at least 80% of courses.  And that seems like a terrible idea.  Those of us that play on public courses still deserve a handicap so we kinda need those course/slope ratings…

From what I remember reading, @larrybud said this would be a vast improvement, taking all of these courses out of consideration for handicap posting, removing handicaps from all of the golfers that depend on those courses and who want to maintain a handicap in order to compete.  I don't understand HOW it would be an improvement for that vast sea of golfers, but that's what he'd like.

[bcjim]

6 hours ago, klebs01 said:

the PCC takes care of all those issues. 
 

 

I'll assume this is slapstick.

[klebs01]

2 minutes ago, bcjim said:

I'll assume this is slapstick.

What evidence do you have that it doesn’t?

[bcjim]

11 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

What evidence do you have that it doesn’t?

Well, since its absurdly secretive, only my own experience.  I've played 120+ rounds in the last 2y. Only ever experienced punitive adjustments. Between 6 and 10 time probably. Muni golfers who play on rough days don't (in my experience) get any help. 

 

 

[sui generis]

11 minutes ago, bcjim said:

Well, since its absurdly secretive, only my own experience.  I've played 120+ rounds in the last 2y. Only ever experienced punitive adjustments. Between 6 and 10 time probably. Muni golfers who play on rough days don't (in my experience) get any help. 

 

 

 

Anecdotes are not evidence. 

[klebs01]

11 minutes ago, bcjim said:

Well, since its absurdly secretive, only my own experience.  I've played 120+ rounds in the last 2y. Only ever experienced punitive adjustments. Between 6 and 10 time probably. Muni golfers who play on rough days don't (in my experience) get any help. 

 

 

So, none. Got it. I’ve had very few adjustments and only on very difficult days. Seems to be working. Need a good number of bad scores posted to ensure it really is a bad day. 

[nsxguy]

13 minutes ago, bcjim said:

Well, since its absurdly secretive, only my own experience.  I've played 120+ rounds in the last 2y. Only ever experienced punitive adjustments. Between 6 and 10 time probably. Muni golfers who play on rough days don't (in my experience) get any help. 

 

 

 

Please define "punitive" and "help".

 

TIA

[bcjim]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Please define "punitive" and "help".

 

TIA

All my  PCC adjustments (all "minus" adjustments) have been on busy, beautiful days (2 were holidays) when enough people posted scores.  None have been (+) or on days where scoring was difficult (likely because insufficient scores were posted though secrecy prevents me from readily knowing this) at the courses in question.

 

Punitive = my differential was 8 until the computer says "no, sorry, it was 9"

Help = my differential was 12, computer say "tough day it was 10 or 11" (Never happens despite me playing and posting rounds on tough days).

 

[Robert72]

I'm a fern believer in the leaf rule...take a free drop and move on.

 

In my area, the ground crews do great jobs of mulching but on windy days...dem leaves are gonna blow!

[jomatty]

10 hours ago, davep043 said:

From what I remember reading, @larrybud said this would be a vast improvement, taking all of these courses out of consideration for handicap posting, removing handicaps from all of the golfers that depend on those courses and who want to maintain a handicap in order to compete.  I don't understand HOW it would be an improvement for that vast sea of golfers, but that's what he'd like.

Golf is elite enough without making it so you have to join a very nice course to have a handicap and compete.  There are a lot more courses that don’t blow the leaves out of the rough constantly than do, so it seems like it would make more sense to eliminate the handful of nicer courses (which I obviously don’t think should happen)

[nsxguy]

On 9/29/2022 at 10:23 PM, bcjim said:

All my  PCC adjustments (all "minus" adjustments) have been on busy, beautiful days (2 were holidays) when enough people posted scores.  None have been (+) or on days where scoring was difficult (likely because insufficient scores were posted though secrecy prevents me from readily knowing this) at the courses in question.

 

Punitive = my differential was 8 until the computer says "no, sorry, it was 9"

Help = my differential was 12, computer say "tough day it was 10 or 11" (Never happens despite me playing and posting rounds on tough days).

 

 

OK, so you want your 'cap to go down. That's why I was asking.

 

But did you object to the 4% reduction of every differential in the previous USGA system ? Assuming you're in the USA of course.

 

That "bonus for excellence" had a much greater effect on a differential than the PCC does. PCC is, most often, a .125 stroke change to a single differential, your handicap index, which, if that round is not in your best 8, would have no effect on your 'cap at all.

 

Or did you not care about that (old bonus for excellence) because it was simply a part of the calculation and not an "add on "what if"" ?

Edited October 2, 2022 by nsxguy

[bcjim]

On 9/30/2022 at 12:33 PM, nsxguy said:

 

OK, so you want your 'cap to go down. That's why I was asking.

 

But did you object to the 4% reduction of every differential in the previous USGA system ? Assuming you're in the USA of course.

 

That "bonus for excellence" had a much greater effect on a differential than the PCC does. PCC is, most often, a .125 stroke change to a single differential, which may not even be in your 8 best, which then means it has no effect on your 'cap at all.

 

Or did you not care about that (old bonus for excellence) because it was simply a part of the calculation and not an "add on "what if"" ?

PCC is (as far as I know) one of the following: -0.5, -1.0, or +0.5-3.0 there are no 0.125s possible afaik.

 

I'm ok with the punitive adjustments, I just think the + adjustments should either be dropped or be allocated differently. Its currently a bonus for certain clubs where score reporting is enforced stringently. And its therefore a penalty on golfers who play at courses where reporting is not enforced.

 

[nsxguy]

6 minutes ago, bcjim said:

PCC is (as far as I know) one of the following: -0.5, -1.0, or +0.5-3.0 there are no 0.125s possible afaik.

 

I'm ok with the punitive adjustments, I just think the + adjustments should either be dropped or be allocated differently. Its currently a bonus for certain clubs where score reporting is enforced stringently. And its therefore a penalty on golfers who play at courses where reporting is not enforced.

 

 

Sorry. I messed up the explanation of the .125 "effect"

 

The .125 (PCC +/- 1) of a stroke is on your handicap index.

 

e.g. Score of 80, PAR & CR of 70, slope 113 = diff of 10.

 

A +1 PCC for that round would give a differential of 9.

 

So that 1 stroke would have an effect of .125 of a stroke (lower) on your handicap IF that round is one of your 8 best of your last 20.

 

Of course if it isn't one of your 8 best, then there is no effect.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[LeoLeo99]

On 9/28/2022 at 6:24 PM, davep043 said:

 

How should they change it?  You complain, please let us know how this issue can be better addressed?

From USGA

To Golf Couse XXX

 

It is the USGA's expectation that you establish a Committee and post a daily sheet during handicap season with the local rules in effect for the day and other pertinent information.  We shall be monitoring your course at random interval for compliance.  We will publish a list of courses on our webpage that comply and do not comply with this initiative.  

Thank for your cooperation.  Should you have any questions, please reach out the USGA.  

 

 

[nsxguy]

52 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

From USGA

To Golf Couse XXX

 

It is the USGA's expectation that you establish a Committee and post a daily sheet during handicap season with the local rules in effect for the day and other pertinent information.  We shall be monitoring your course at random interval for compliance.  We will publish a list of courses on our webpage that comply and do not comply with this initiative.  

Thank for your cooperation.  Should you have any questions, please reach out the USGA.  

 

 

 

From Golf Couse XXX

To USGA

 

All of our USGA Model Local Rules are posted on our scorecards, or in a prominent place in the clubhouse, or both.

 

Any additional local rules necessary for tournaments, and/or daily play are posted in the clubhouse on an "as needed" basis.

 

It is the course's expectation, as established by the USGA and WHS,  a casual/social group is its own committee and will abide by the USGA's guidelines/suggestions, in determining any local rules needed during their round.

 

We shall be monitoring the USGA website and emails for any further guidance.

Thank for your suggestions/concerns.  Should you have any questions, please reach out to Golf Course XXX 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by nsxguy

[LeoLeo99]

14 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

From Golf Couse XXX

To USGA

 

All of our USGA Model Local Rules are posted on our scorecards, or in a prominent place in the clubhouse, or both.

 

Any additional local rules necessary for tournaments, and/or daily play are posted in the clubhouse on an "as needed" basis.

 

It is the course's expectation, as established by the USGA and WHS,  a casual/social group is its own committee and will abide by the USGA's guidelines/suggestions, in determining any local rules needed during their round.

 

We shall be monitoring the USGA website and emails for any further guidance.

Thank for your suggestions/concerns.  Should you have any questions, please reach out to Golf Course XXX 

 

 

 

 

LOL  Why even define a committee then if each group is playing by different rules but all submitting their rounds for handicap purposes. My local course has numerous fairway bunkers that they have stopped maintaining for the past couple of years since Covid.  My buddy questioned if they were still considered bunkers or if they're now waste areas.  So he asked inside the pro shop.  The guy there said, "Yeah, you can probably consider them waste areas."  Nothing is posted.  And every course I've played is like that.  The frustrating part is that it's so easy to for the course to post a sheet saying that LCP is in place today.  They have no problem posting cart path only signs.    

[nsxguy]

45 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 

LOL  Why even define a committee then if each group is playing by different rules but all submitting their rounds for handicap purposes. My local course has numerous fairway bunkers that they have stopped maintaining for the past couple of years since Covid.  My buddy questioned if they were still considered bunkers or if they're now waste areas.  So he asked inside the pro shop.  The guy there said, "Yeah, you can probably consider them waste areas."  Nothing is posted.  And every course I've played is like that.  The frustrating part is that it's so easy to for the course to post a sheet saying that LCP is in place today.  They have no problem posting cart path only signs.    

 

I'll give you my short version (you're welcome)

 

50% of golfers keep a handicap

 

50% of golfers who keep handicaps keep them "just because".

 

50% of those more "serious" golfers don't play in many formal or money events.

 

ALL handicappers who "do what they want" have vanity handicaps and are mostly irrelevant in competition, if they ever enter them, unless they get really lucky.

 

So I'll be quite content to compete against anybody who "does what they want" - and take his/her donations to the cause happily.

 

Ain't ya glad I gave the short version ?

[Mr. Bean]

On 9/29/2022 at 9:39 PM, nsxguy said:

 

This has been covered multiple times.

 

Private courses should have a committee.

 

For public courses, YOU, and your group, are the committee - unless it's a larger, more formal competition. Then that comp should have a committee, or at the very least, a single point of contact who can make/decide local rules.

 

 

 

Can you clarify this?

 

If you have your own private competition between four persons forming one group can they act as their own committee and decide on their own Local Rules

a) only on public courses

b) on all courses, private or public

c) on any course but only if there are no LRs set in force. If there are LRs the group is not allowed to take their own LRs in force

d) something else?

[klebs01]

17 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Can you clarify this?

 

If you have your own private competition between four persons forming one group can they act as their own committee and decide on their own Local Rules

a) only on public courses

b) on all courses, private or public

c) on any course but only if there are no LRs set in force. If there are LRs the group is not allowed to take their own LRs in force

d) something else?

The correct answer is B.

[Mr. Bean]

19 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

The correct answer is B.

 

Isn't that a bit strange? If the Committee of a course has checked out the entire course and put appropriate LRs in force then why should players be allowed to enlarge or reduce the amount of LRs or declare GURs at their will? After all, in that Committee there may be people who are much more knowledgeable about preparing a course than any of the players of an individual group. Also it puts the infamous PCC in an odd role when every group has their own set of Rules. How consistent is that?

[klebs01]

28 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Isn't that a bit strange? If the Committee of a course has checked out the entire course and put appropriate LRs in force then why should players be allowed to enlarge or reduce the amount of LRs or declare GURs at their will? After all, in that Committee there may be people who are much more knowledgeable about preparing a course than any of the players of an individual group. Also it puts the infamous PCC in an odd role when every group has their own set of Rules. How consistent is that?

The committee is related to the competition not the course. A course doesn’t make rulings for the competition. The course simply presents the course, the committee may accept it as is or make rulings or implement MLRs to address deficiencies on the course. 

[Mr. Bean]

28 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

The committee is related to the competition not the course. A course doesn’t make rulings for the competition. The course simply presents the course, the committee may accept it as is or make rulings or implement MLRs to address deficiencies on the course. 

 

In my country every club has a Committee who decides where the teeing areas are, how the course is marked and which LRs are in force at any given time. When there is a competition that competition has its own Committee who may alter the markings (with course's permission, of course) for that particular competition and make a set of LRs and other conditions of competition as it sees fit. If it is a club competition there are normally no big changes but if it is a competition organized by the National Association the CoC and LRs are substantially different.

 

So, when a player in my country plays a handicap round (other than a competition) they ALWAYS follow the Local Rules set by the Committee of the course. Seems to be a major cultural difference, probably due to the fact that we do not have any public courses by your description.

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Mr. Bean
Typo

[Newby]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

In my country every club has a Committee who decides where the teeing areas are, how the course is marked and which LRs are in force at any given time. When there is a competition that competition has its own Committee who may alter the markings (with course's permission, of course) for that particular competition and make a set of LRs and other conditions of competition as it sees fit. If it is a club competition there are normally no big changes but if it is a competition organized by the National Association the CoC and LRs are substantially different.

 

So, when a player in my country plays a handicap round (other than a competition) they ALWAYS follow the Local Rules set by the Committee of the course. Seems to be a major cultural difference, probably due to the fact that we do not have any public courses by your description.

 

Much the same here. To use the WHS system a player must belong to a formal Club which is affiliated to the national authority (England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales as appropriate). This also applies to clubs which do not own the course but which simply uses facilities provided by the local municipal authority (the city council etc). Some of these (municipal) courses and others on publicly owned or Common land have more than one club using the course.

[bekgolf]

On 10/3/2022 at 6:58 AM, Mr. Bean said:

 

In my country every club has a Committee who decides where the teeing areas are, how the course is marked and which LRs are in force at any given time. When there is a competition that competition has its own Committee who may alter the markings (with course's permission, of course) for that particular competition and make a set of LRs and other conditions of competition as it sees fit. If it is a club competition there are normally no big changes but if it is a competition organized by the National Association the CoC and LRs are substantially different.

 

So, when a player in my country plays a handicap round (other than a competition) they ALWAYS follow the Local Rules set by the Committee of the course. Seems to be a major cultural difference, probably due to the fact that we do not have any public courses by your description.

 

 

Your experience sounds like utopia.  Congratulations!

 

 

[Colin L]

On 10/3/2022 at 9:28 PM, Newby said:

Much the same here. To use the WHS system a player must belong to a formal Club which is affiliated to the national authority (England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales as appropriate). This also applies to clubs which do not own the course but which simply uses facilities provided by the local municipal authority (the city council etc). Some of these (municipal) courses and others on publicly owned or Common land have more than one club using the course.

In addition, there is a subscription facility for non-club members to affiliate with the national authority and gain and maintain a handicap without being a member of a club.  It's called Open Golf in Scotland and, I think,, iGolf in England and Flexi Club in Wales.   I don't know the situation in Ireland.  There is no slackening of the requirements for acceptable scores (pre-registration and attestation by a marker.) 

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, bekgolf said:

 

Your experience sounds like utopia.  Congratulations!

 

 

 

Probably for you it does, for us it is how things are done.

[Augster]

On 10/3/2022 at 8:30 AM, klebs01 said:

The committee is related to the competition not the course. A course doesn’t make rulings for the competition. The course simply presents the course, the committee may accept it as is or make rulings or implement MLRs to address deficiencies on the course. 

This. 100%. 
 

Even our state association, for state qualifiers and such, goes out to the course in advance and marks it the way they want it for the competition they will be hosting. They pull red stakes that are solely for pace of

play (woods), they take white paint and circle GUR where the “course committee” hasn’t, they remove illegal “drop areas” that are on the wrong side of the yellow PA, etc. etc. etc. 

 

A course is just a place to play

golf. They can put as many local rules as they want on their card etc. but each individual group is free to do what they want. 
 

Though, if they have a local rule that says, “Free drop from all flower beds”, each group SHOULD adopt that local rule for their own competition in their group. But they don’t have to. 
 

And please don’t forget, any MLRs adopted by any group makes golf easier to play. Easier golf means lower scores. Posting lower scores means lower handicaps. 
 

None of your future opponents care if your cap is too low because you play with too many MLRs in casual play. They were planning to beat you anyway. 

[nsxguy]

9 minutes ago, Augster said:

This. 100%. 
 

Even our state association, for state qualifiers and such, goes out to the course in advance and marks it the way they want it for the competition they will be hosting. They pull red stakes that are solely for pace of

play (woods), they take white paint and circle GUR where the “course committee” hasn’t, they remove illegal “drop areas” that are on the wrong side of the yellow PA, etc. etc. etc. 

 

A course is just a place to play

golf. They can put as many local rules as they want on their card etc. but each individual group is free to do what they want. 
 

Though, if they have a local rule that says, “Free drop from all flower beds”, each group SHOULD adopt that local rule for their own competition in their group. But they don’t have to. 
 

And please don’t forget, any MLRs adopted by any group makes golf easier to play. Easier golf means lower scores. Posting lower scores means lower handicaps. 
 

None of your future opponents care if your cap is too low because you play with too many MLRs in casual play. They were planning to beat you anyway. 

 

Likely you've played in many more formal "outside" comps than I have but where I have done so the association running the comp will partner with the course owner(s) on how to mark the course and which local rules to use and which not to.

 

Marking spots GUR ? Probably OK with the course.

 

Pulling up red PA stakes changing the PA to non-PA ? Seems unlikely but I suppose the course might not mind, especially if the "event" is taking up all the tee times for the day.

 

But you go back and forth. Ignoring free drops out of flower beds ? That sounds like you're talking about casual play. If so, let those players play out of the flower bed instead of taking relief and see what happens. They probably will be asked to leave.

 

 

[Augster]

20 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Likely you've played in many more formal "outside" comps than I have but where I have done so the association running the comp will partner with the course owner(s) on how to mark the course and which local rules to use and which not to.

 

Marking spots GUR ? Probably OK with the course.

 

Pulling up red PA stakes changing the PA to non-PA ? Seems unlikely but I suppose the course might not mind, especially if the "event" is taking up all the tee times for the day.

 

But you go back and forth. Ignoring free drops out of flower beds ? That sounds like you're talking about casual play. If so, let those players play out of the flower bed instead of taking relief and see what happens. They probably will be asked to leave.

 

 

The local rules on the card are merely suggestions as to how the course management wants you to play their course. Usually with a large nod towards pace of play. 
 

A player’s own group can choose to use the course as marked, or set their own rules the way THEY would want it marked. This would have to be agreed upon before the casual competition. Things like “we’re playing all OB as red” and “LCP in your own fairway” would need to be declared and agreed upon, or the play would default to the way the course management has the course marked. 
 

I agree, players should keep the local rules that are set out by the course for safety/beauty purposes, but they don’t have to. 
 

I certainly agree that If a group decides to start chopping balls out of flower beds, where the course wants them to take a free drop, they should be asked to leave with no refund. 
 

 

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

The local rules on the card are merely suggestions as to how the course management wants you to play their course. Usually with a large nod towards pace of play. 
 

A player’s own group can choose to use the course as marked, or set their own rules the way THEY would want it marked. This would have to be agreed upon before the casual competition. Things like “we’re playing all OB as red” and “LCP in your own fairway” would need to be declared and agreed upon, or the play would default to the way the course management has the course marked. 
 

I agree, players should keep the local rules that are set out by the course for safety/beauty purposes, but they don’t have to. 
 

I certainly agree that If a group decides to start chopping balls out of flower beds, where the course wants them to take a free drop, they should be asked to leave with no refund. 
 

 

 

May I ask where you've gotten the notion that local rules on the card are merely suggestions and "don't have to" be adhered to ? Any references to same ? TIA

 

I have to think that a group, being their own committee, can invoke a LOCAL rule, e.g. LCP, but not make up their own. Nor, I believe, can they change the course layout, as in playing red PAs differently,,,,,,,,,,, "just because".

 

I'm also thinking there would be WHS implications as well if they changed the red PAs to,,,,,,,,,,,,,, whatever.

 

So where does one draw the line ?