In your opinion.. in the backswing

[FormerBigDaddy]

Do you rotate your body properly and the arms move in reaction?

 

or

 

Do the arms swing back and your body rotates in reaction?

[FormerBigDaddy]

I struggle with going back and forth between the 2.  When i use my arms in the backswing my body seems to move/rotate more naturally, but there seems to be a lot more timing involved in squaring the face.  When I focus on a more pivot driven swing it feels more unnatural with more tilt/side bend but the face stays more square and seems like less timing involved.  Pivot drive does feel VERY powerful at times so I like that but I also feel like i have more tension and it's less fluid.  With that said pivot driven seems to translate much easier to short game and shortened swings inside 100.  For the last year I've stuck to a more pivot driven swing b/c my misses are smaller and it's only 1 direction, however my ball striking isn't as pure.  I'm currently an 8HC and have had some success with both but struggling to commit to one methodology. 

 

I know bryson in controversial but I don't see a lot of arm swing in his moves.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by FormerBigDaddy

[kowalgolf]

Balance. Swing your swing where you hold your finish till the ball starts coming down. Regardless where the ball goes if you can swing the club and hold your finish and feel no effort vs. yanking, pulling, tugging, where it becomes work to get the club to the ball is hard. Grip. setup, ball position. alignment, wrist hinge, I've tried them all. You need to find a swing where you can stick the finish and not feel a lot of effort/work was put into the swing. Golf is hard enjoy the journey.

[FormerBigDaddy]

11 minutes ago, kowalgolf said:

Balance. Swing your swing where you hold your finish till the ball starts coming down. Regardless where the ball goes if you can swing the club and hold your finish and feel no effort vs. yanking, pulling, tugging, where it becomes work to get the club to the ball is hard. Grip. setup, ball position. alignment, wrist hinge, I've tried them all. You need to find a swing where you can stick the finish and not feel a lot of effort/work was put into the swing. Golf is hard enjoy the journey.

THis is actually great advice and something I do think about often.  Where i try not to really think about the mechanics of the backswing but really kind of feel what creates a good follow through and finish.  Probably need to get back to this thought.

[SNIPERBBB]

Arms and body reacts for me. When i let the body control rotation it's too much and i get really flat and iron play goes to pot 

[kowalgolf]

Yes, I played with a kid last week and I mentioned this thought and it took away all the mechanics from his brain. I've done this to two people with good results. Yes there were bad shots and yes there were good shots. Transferring the feel to your minds eye is the hard part. Good shot bad shot did I finish and hold till the ball starts coming down and did it feel effortless vs. the latter I mentioned. Stick and hold your finish and what did you feel. Mechanics are important and after 61 yrs. of playing I've realized we all have our swing faults which for me is probably 5 and when you try to correct 1 the other 4 come into play with the compensations needed to hit the ball. Balance is sorely underrated in my opinion.

[BeTheBall_]

22 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Arms and body reacts for me. When i let the body control rotation it's too much and i get really flat and iron play goes to pot 

 

Exactly the same for me.

 

I use the MDLT approach of swinging the clubhead over my right shoulder. Once I feel the stretch of a full turn I just fire my left shoulder off my chin and that's basically my swing.

 

 

[Zitlow]

The left hand and arm augment the shoulder turn which actually is a retraction and protraction of the scapulas.

 

Where people miss it is they take the club off the plane because they try to make a line with their left arm instead of a circle. 

 

They put themselves in a state of recovery because the shaft isn't aimed properly and they don't use their anatomy trains efficiently. 

 

The golf swing isn't complicated if you don't fight against yourself. 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Zitlow

[third-times-a-charm]

Arms first. If I do chest/body my arms will lag due to my shorter backswing. I know my swing is in sync not in the upswing but the downswing using my upper body and chest because the arms will then lag properly afterwards.

[Dufferonius]

I initiate all turns from the ground up.  Feet, legs, hips, trunk, shoulders, arms.

 

Other than my trail arm folding in on the back-swing and straightening on the downswing, they're mostly along for the ride.

 

This is how I was taught by my current instructors.

[glk]

They work together.   How it feels is individual and can vary over time.  To me, thinking of things like this get in the way of of having a good swing.   Kind of the thing some think of saying on the 18th tee of an all square match when their opponent is about to tee off, lol.

[MonteScheinblum]

6 hours ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Do you rotate your body properly and the arms move in reaction?

 

or

 

Do the arms swing back and your body rotates in reaction?

Yes

[naj959]

I've gone back and forth on the two. Ultimately the more pivot driven, big muscle move has been more consistent for "me" but everyone is different. I was very skeptical of Kwon initially but started dong step drills while doing overspeed training. The shifting of pressure to trigger my swing has really helped tighten up my swing. Especially with the driver!

[Trippels]

Both. But arms swing up as you turn, not behind you.

Unless "back" means away from the ball down the line, then sure.

[hurley999s]

6 hours ago, Zitlow said:

The left hand and arm augment the shoulder turn which actually is a retraction and protraction of the scapulas.

 

Where people miss it is they take the club off the plane because they try to make a line with their left arm instead of a circle. 

 

They put themselves in a state of recovery because the shaft isn't aimed properly and they don't use their anatomy trains efficiently. 

 

The golf swing isn't complicated if you don't fight against yourself. 

 

 

 

Can you expand on what you mean in 2nd paragraph about making a line with their left arm instead of a circle? Do you mean straight lead arm vs bent? Or do you mean the shape it traces? If the latter, what part of the arm specifically makes a circle and where is it? There are multiple joints and parts involved so I’m trying to visualize what you’re saying here 

[Dufferonius]

31 minutes ago, hurley999s said:

Can you expand on what you mean in 2nd paragraph about making a line with their left arm instead of a circle?

I suspect he's referring to how many amateur golfers swing down toward the ball.  It happens when you pull your hands down at the transition.

 

That's my sole remaining major swing fault.  I'm having a helluva time getting the correct move to replace that.  I'm just beginning to make progress, but it has to be very intentional.  If I just step up and swing my swing, the ol' pulling the shaft down move returns.

 

I'd hate to see what might happen if I actually tried to hit a ball right now 🤣

 

[itsame]

I'd rather not think about it.

 

This sounds like 'do you breath in or out during your swing' where you start thinking about it and lose your swing because you have no idea how you did it before you thought about it.

[Zitlow]

4 hours ago, hurley999s said:

Can you expand on what you mean in 2nd paragraph about making a line with their left arm instead of a circle? Do you mean straight lead arm vs bent? Or do you mean the shape it traces? If the latter, what part of the arm specifically makes a circle and where is it? There are multiple joints and parts involved so I’m trying to visualize what you’re saying here 

 

Snead isn't swinging the club wide in a line on the static address plane, he's swinging it around him in a circle on a dynamic revolving plane. 

 

 

@Dufferonius is right. Almost everyone tries to make the club head take a direct route to the ball by activating their arms instead of a circular route to the ball. They swing the club wide in the backswing which disassociates their shoulders and club robbing the clubhead of energy in the downswing. 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Zitlow

[FormerBigDaddy]

17 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Yes

Thanks!

[KMeloney]

On 9/29/2022 at 9:09 AM, SNIPERBBB said:

Arms and body reacts for me. When i let the body control rotation it's too much and i get really flat and iron play goes to pot 

 

Agree completely. And ironically, when I let the body control rotation, I can't control the rotation. I rotate back too far, tend to get my weight moving back and often stuck back, and my backswing gets too long and off-plane. Feeling like I'm all-arms produces all the rotation I need, ultimately limits it to the right amount, and keeps me from swaying.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

Body reacts, only exception being when I was trying to get more hip rotation in the back swing. I took out speed and focused on that specific motion to get the feel. Same goes for working on different movements with the arms and wrists I suppose, but on a normal swing I would say my body feels more automatic at this point than my arms. My current swing key is a shorter arm swing.

[bladehunter]

My think and feel is body.  Body turns and passive arms hands. But I know that they also  fold in place at the top and then move back tp the ball in order to stay in front  of my core . 
 

if I think “ start with the arms “.  I’m stuck from the beginning with my arms outrunning my core tp the top. Then I’ll spin my hips out of the way and  yank the handle hard to try to catch up or sync up.    So for me the feel is core controls it all. 

[chisag]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

My think and feel is body.  Body turns and passive arms hands. But I know that they also  fold in place at the top and then move back tp the ball in order to stay in front  of my core . 
 

if I think “ start with the arms “.  I’m stuck from the beginning with my arms outrunning my core tp the top. Then I’ll spin my hips out of the way and  yank the handle hard to try to catch up or sync up.    So for me the feel is core controls it all. 

 

 

... I think this is a little like the elephant and the blind men and they were all right. As Monty said, it is of course both but what we feel is different for every individual. Playing QB from 2nd grade through college I never thought of moving my body, I just threw the ball with my hands and arms. Of course my body turned in relation to drawing back the football and I started my forward motion from the ground up but to me it just felt like I was throwing the ball with my arms/wrists/hands. My golf swing is the same. 

... Adding to feel vs real I was putting at the PGA Show and a putter OEM had me roll some balls and do some measurements and complimented me on just rocking my shoulders and keeping the hands out of the stroke. He really liked my putting stroke. I told him I putt with my hands, all feel is through my hands and surprisingly he disagreed with me. He said he sees faulty putting with hands all the time and the stroke always breaks down, especially under pressure and I am definitely using my shoulders and not my hands. And that certainly sums up a lot of instruction and confusion in the swing. I know I use my hands and yes their movement "rocks my shoulders"  but I am unaware of my shoulders in my stroke. Otoh the putting guru also knew with certainty I used my shoulders to control my stroke and not may hands. 

... I am old and wise enough to know he may be right and I may be wrong and only feel like my hands control the stroke when it is my shoulders. But in the end if I putt well and he really liked my putting stroke, does it matter? 

[Chunkitgood]

Body leads, arms follow, the more so the better the golfer.  Good golfers’ body movement/sequence is essentially the same, arm movement varies considerably more.  

 

Good golfers frequently don’t realize this since their body movement is in implicit memory.  Also obscured by the fact that the takeaway often starts with arm action…but as the swing progresses the body takes over.  Proper body action will tend to put the arms and club in proper motion…if you let it.

 

The body can respond to the mental image or intention of making a swing in terms of moving the hand, arms, club head, etc. but only if the body has previously learned how to do so as part of the overall learned skill.

 

I recall on this forum reading a post by a mdlt fan saying he was having trouble having his body react to his arms…until his body learned how to react to his arms.

 

 

[vman]

I just tried to pick something up off the floor and focused on my chest and core.......nothing happened.

[JetPilot]

I used to use my body to get the club in position - that didn't work well.  Now I let my body react to the club position - that has worked very well.