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How much iron shafts matter?


dlow206
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There is a camp that says if you are in the right weight class for your fit and roughly in the right flex (knowing there is no flex standard in the industry) then there wont be that much difference between shafts.

 

i believe even if given the assumptions above, shafts matter a lot to the outcome of a human swinging with different shafts. 
 

for example, i cannot hit solid shots with the Modus 105. Never been able to hit solid shots with that shaft historically. And then during a fitting a few days back, the fitter was interchanging shafts without telling me what they were and i was also not looking at the graphics. He gave me a club, i hit a few and i was like what the hell did you give me, i hate this shaft. Modus 105.

 

proceeded to go back to some other shafts, and went back to hitting more solid shots. 
 

Are there any iron shafts that theoretically should be an ok fit that you just can’t hit well at all?

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I am very shaft-sensitive.  I find there to be a huge difference in the results that different shafts give me.  Both in irons and woods.  I get along well with Whiteboard-like shafts in the driver/fairways and Steelfiber 80-like shafts in the irons.  When I try SF 95s or SF 110s, I can barely get them off the ground in the long irons...too stiff.  Yet, I use 80X Whiteboards in my fairways, which are also very stiff.  For me, the EI profile (i.e., how the stiffness is allocated at different places in the shaft) makes all the difference.  

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PX 6.5 and S300.  I didn't like the feel of either shaft from the get go and my misses were almost always toe side. 

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Ive seen videos online about this that will claim that shafts do nothing. Usually such video sees a player hitting clubs with shafts at massively different ends of the golfing spectrum, and then the results are shown from the launch monitor showing negligible differences when the weight, and flex are changed in the shafts. Thus supporting the hypothesis that the shaft does nothing.

 

I think this is bordering on click baiting, for a few reasons.

 

First of all, these people are not PLAYING golf. They are just stood, usually indoors, in a fitting room, in front of a simulator, hitting balls. So we have no idea how their perception of the shots they are hitting changes when they swing slightly harder, swing slightly softer, try and draw it, fade it, or anything associated with real life golf. Its purely a numbers game, with no thought given to what inspires confidence or feel.

 

Secondly, the test is over within lets guess, 20 balls with that particular shaft. We have no way of knowing if someone was to use the "wrong" shaft, day in, day out, for an extended period of time, how that would affect how he/she delivers the club for better or worse, or what compensations that person would end up making to overcome their perception of FEEL.

 

The final major flaw in this argument for me is that, from hitting in a repetitive motion, the person swinging gets into a groove that they dont get into on the course. So their delivery numbers become more in sync, no matter what they are hitting. It becomes robotic. Again, not reflective of real life.

 

I can definitely attest, at least from my perspective, that if youve got the wrong shafts, the following pattern happens:

 

1) If the weight is wrong for your swing, you deliver the club a little differently to the ball. If you go with a lighter shaft, you MAY swing more quickly, but this wont make any positive impact if your tempo and sequencing gets out of rhythm, and you deliver the club badly to the ball. Likewise, if the shaft is too heavy, itll have an adverse effect on your swing.

 

2) If the shaft is too stiff for your swing, you wont be able to "turn off" the feeling of swinging normally for you, and youll instinctively try to swing harder to get the shaft to "load". Youll try and make the shaft "work" from a feel perspective, and most likely deliver the club badly. Same with too soft of a flex....youll most likely purposefully slow your swing down, or be less aggressive in transition, to ensure you dont put much load into the shaft....and again, the results will probably be bad.

 

If you have the ability to become a robot with no feeling, and not react to any of these feelings....If you deliver the club 2 degrees outside in, and have an attack angle of 4 degrees down, and deliver a certain amount of dynamic loft, then yes, the ball is going to do the same thing with all the shafts, because youre delivering the same numbers.

 

I think the misconception is that people THINK they swing the same with all different shafts, and the shaft creates the ball flight.

 

Its more the case that the shaft MAKES YOU swing differently, or moves the strike point on the face, which then changes your numbers one way or another. And unless youve got no sense of feeling whatsoever, its highly likely this will have a massive effect on how you hit the ball in a real world scenario.

 

So in summary, it makes as big or small a difference as the way YOU react to the different shafts.

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4 minutes ago, Denny100 said:

Ive seen videos online about this that will claim that shafts do nothing. Usually such video sees a player hitting clubs with shafts at massively different ends of the golfing spectrum, and then the results are shown from the launch monitor showing negligible differences when the weight, and flex are changed in the shafts. Thus supporting the hypothesis that the shaft does nothing.

 

I think this is bordering on click baiting, for a few reasons.

 

First of all, these people are not PLAYING golf. They are just stood, usually indoors, in a fitting room, in front of a simulator, hitting balls. So we have no idea how their perception of the shots they are hitting changes when they swing slightly harder, swing slightly softer, try and draw it, fade it, or anything associated with real life golf. Its purely a numbers game, with no thought given to what inspires confidence or feel.

 

Secondly, the test is over within lets guess, 20 balls with that particular shaft. We have no way of knowing if someone was to use the "wrong" shaft, day in, day out, for an extended period of time, how that would affect how he/she delivers the club for better or worse, or what compensations that person would end up making to overcome their perception of FEEL.

 

The final major flaw in this argument for me is that, from hitting in a repetitive motion, the person swinging gets into a groove that they dont get into on the course. So their delivery numbers become more in sync, no matter what they are hitting. It becomes robotic. Again, not reflective of real life.

 

I can definitely attest, at least from my perspective, that if youve got the wrong shafts, the following pattern happens:

 

1) If the weight is wrong for your swing, you deliver the club a little differently to the ball. If you go with a lighter shaft, you MAY swing more quickly, but this wont make any positive impact if your tempo and sequencing gets out of rhythm, and you deliver the club badly to the ball. Likewise, if the shaft is too heavy, itll have an adverse effect on your swing.

 

2) If the shaft is too stiff for your swing, you wont be able to "turn off" the feeling of swinging normally for you, and youll instinctively try to swing harder to get the shaft to "load". Youll try and make the shaft "work" from a feel perspective, and most likely deliver the club badly. Same with too soft of a flex....youll most likely purposefully slow your swing down, or be less aggressive in transition, to ensure you dont put much load into the shaft....and again, the results will probably be bad.

 

If you have the ability to become a robot with no feeling, and not react to any of these feelings....If you deliver the club 2 degrees outside in, and have an attack angle of 4 degrees down, and deliver a certain amount of dynamic loft, then yes, the ball is going to do the same thing with all the shafts, because youre delivering the same numbers.

 

I think the misconception is that people THINK they swing the same with all different shafts, and the shaft creates the ball flight.

 

Its more the case that the shaft MAKES YOU swing differently, or moves the strike point on the face, which then changes your numbers one way or another. And unless youve got no sense of feeling whatsoever, its highly likely this will have a massive effect on how you hit the ball in a real world scenario.

 

So in summary, it makes as big or small a difference as the way YOU react to the different shafts.


i like how you put it about shafts too stiff. I can’t turn off that instinct of swinging harder if perceive the shaft being too stiff. I don’t consciously want to do that, it just happens.

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Px6.0 even in a wedge instant right fade. 

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To your point, I’d hate a Modus 120 blindfolded. Any flex. Love the 105, go figure. 
 

I’ve become a believer that correct weight can trump ideal flex, but profiles still matter. 
 

If you simply profile down to butt-mid-tip, it’s frankly ridiculous to assert that soft-soft-stiff would satisfy the same golfer as stiff-stiff-soft. And so on. At this point in technology, every possible combo seems to be on the market.

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7 hours ago, Denny100 said:

Ive seen videos online about this that will claim that shafts do nothing. Usually such video sees a player hitting clubs with shafts at massively different ends of the golfing spectrum, and then the results are shown from the launch monitor showing negligible differences when the weight, and flex are changed in the shafts. Thus supporting the hypothesis that the shaft does nothing.

 

I think this is bordering on click baiting, for a few reasons.

 

First of all, these people are not PLAYING golf. They are just stood, usually indoors, in a fitting room, in front of a simulator, hitting balls. So we have no idea how their perception of the shots they are hitting changes when they swing slightly harder, swing slightly softer, try and draw it, fade it, or anything associated with real life golf. Its purely a numbers game, with no thought given to what inspires confidence or feel.

 

Secondly, the test is over within lets guess, 20 balls with that particular shaft. We have no way of knowing if someone was to use the "wrong" shaft, day in, day out, for an extended period of time, how that would affect how he/she delivers the club for better or worse, or what compensations that person would end up making to overcome their perception of FEEL.

 

The final major flaw in this argument for me is that, from hitting in a repetitive motion, the person swinging gets into a groove that they dont get into on the course. So their delivery numbers become more in sync, no matter what they are hitting. It becomes robotic. Again, not reflective of real life.

 

I can definitely attest, at least from my perspective, that if youve got the wrong shafts, the following pattern happens:

 

1) If the weight is wrong for your swing, you deliver the club a little differently to the ball. If you go with a lighter shaft, you MAY swing more quickly, but this wont make any positive impact if your tempo and sequencing gets out of rhythm, and you deliver the club badly to the ball. Likewise, if the shaft is too heavy, itll have an adverse effect on your swing.

 

2) If the shaft is too stiff for your swing, you wont be able to "turn off" the feeling of swinging normally for you, and youll instinctively try to swing harder to get the shaft to "load". Youll try and make the shaft "work" from a feel perspective, and most likely deliver the club badly. Same with too soft of a flex....youll most likely purposefully slow your swing down, or be less aggressive in transition, to ensure you dont put much load into the shaft....and again, the results will probably be bad.

 

If you have the ability to become a robot with no feeling, and not react to any of these feelings....If you deliver the club 2 degrees outside in, and have an attack angle of 4 degrees down, and deliver a certain amount of dynamic loft, then yes, the ball is going to do the same thing with all the shafts, because youre delivering the same numbers.

 

I think the misconception is that people THINK they swing the same with all different shafts, and the shaft creates the ball flight.

 

Its more the case that the shaft MAKES YOU swing differently, or moves the strike point on the face, which then changes your numbers one way or another. And unless youve got no sense of feeling whatsoever, its highly likely this will have a massive effect on how you hit the ball in a real world scenario.

 

So in summary, it makes as big or small a difference as the way YOU react to the different shafts.

I agree with you to a certain extent, but also believe that certain elements in a shaft's design affect ball flight the same for everybody.  For example, tip stiffness (i.e., tip torque).  Generally speaking, a shaft with a higher tip torque will flight the ball higher than a shaft with a lower tip torque.  To put it another way, a shaft with a tip torque of 4.5 will always flight the ball higher than a shaft with a tip torque of 2.5.  Why?  Because it's designed to do so.  Your body really can't react to tip stiffness, because it's not something you can feel during your swing.  The tip of the shaft is too far away from your hands to be felt during the swing.  You can feel what the butt and even the midsection of the club are doing during the swing, but not the tip.

 

So regardless of how many different people swing those shafts and how they swing them - fast/slow, inside-out/outside-in, etc. - the 4.5 tip torque shaft will always have a higher ball flight than the 2.5 tip torque shaft in the same clubhead for the person swinging them.  

As an analogy, think of two tennis rackets, one with tightly strung strings and the other with loosely strung strings.  Your body can't feel the strings as you swing the tennis racket, yet you will get completely different results from each racket.  

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11 hours ago, Denny100 said:

Ive seen videos online about this that will claim that shafts do nothing. Usually such video sees a player hitting clubs with shafts at massively different ends of the golfing spectrum, and then the results are shown from the launch monitor showing negligible differences when the weight, and flex are changed in the shafts. Thus supporting the hypothesis that the shaft does nothing.

 

I think this is bordering on click baiting, for a few reasons.

 

First of all, these people are not PLAYING golf. They are just stood, usually indoors, in a fitting room, in front of a simulator, hitting balls. So we have no idea how their perception of the shots they are hitting changes when they swing slightly harder, swing slightly softer, try and draw it, fade it, or anything associated with real life golf. Its purely a numbers game, with no thought given to what inspires confidence or feel.

 

Secondly, the test is over within lets guess, 20 balls with that particular shaft. We have no way of knowing if someone was to use the "wrong" shaft, day in, day out, for an extended period of time, how that would affect how he/she delivers the club for better or worse, or what compensations that person would end up making to overcome their perception of FEEL.

 

The final major flaw in this argument for me is that, from hitting in a repetitive motion, the person swinging gets into a groove that they dont get into on the course. So their delivery numbers become more in sync, no matter what they are hitting. It becomes robotic. Again, not reflective of real life.

 

I can definitely attest, at least from my perspective, that if youve got the wrong shafts, the following pattern happens:

 

1) If the weight is wrong for your swing, you deliver the club a little differently to the ball. If you go with a lighter shaft, you MAY swing more quickly, but this wont make any positive impact if your tempo and sequencing gets out of rhythm, and you deliver the club badly to the ball. Likewise, if the shaft is too heavy, itll have an adverse effect on your swing.

 

2) If the shaft is too stiff for your swing, you wont be able to "turn off" the feeling of swinging normally for you, and youll instinctively try to swing harder to get the shaft to "load". Youll try and make the shaft "work" from a feel perspective, and most likely deliver the club badly. Same with too soft of a flex....youll most likely purposefully slow your swing down, or be less aggressive in transition, to ensure you dont put much load into the shaft....and again, the results will probably be bad.

 

If you have the ability to become a robot with no feeling, and not react to any of these feelings....If you deliver the club 2 degrees outside in, and have an attack angle of 4 degrees down, and deliver a certain amount of dynamic loft, then yes, the ball is going to do the same thing with all the shafts, because youre delivering the same numbers.

 

I think the misconception is that people THINK they swing the same with all different shafts, and the shaft creates the ball flight.

 

Its more the case that the shaft MAKES YOU swing differently, or moves the strike point on the face, which then changes your numbers one way or another. And unless youve got no sense of feeling whatsoever, its highly likely this will have a massive effect on how you hit the ball in a real world scenario.

 

So in summary, it makes as big or small a difference as the way YOU react to the different shafts.

The shaft itself delivers length, weight, and FEEL, and the last one is important for some players and how the club performs, for others not so much. Ive seen players who had the same output datas on "all relevant options", it boiled down to feel only, and ive seen players where carry changed by about 20 yards, using the same shaft, either strait in or as HS2 (RIFLE FCM 6.0 vs 6.8 using the same shaft blank. The 6.8 was about 20 yards longer with the same stopping power as 6.0). So dont underestimate the importance of feel, you might be up for a big surprise when you find a shaft where weight, and feel really "jives" with your swing.

END NOTE:
Always do a little head wgt tweak when testing shafts. Feel of head wgt is a very important part of the feedback we use for timing, and since shafts has balance points all over the place, its a MUST to do a little head wgt tweak when we have found something thats "close" to what we seek. A few grams extra head wgt might be beneficial for the overall timing and how that shaft feels, so dont forget to try a different head wgt than you are used to for that club.

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13 hours ago, dlow206 said:

There is a camp that says if you are in the right weight class for your fit and roughly in the right flex (knowing there is no flex standard in the industry) then there wont be that much difference between shafts.

 

i believe even if given the assumptions above, shafts matter a lot to the outcome of a human swinging with different shafts. 
 

 

That's certainly true for some individuals but it's not true for everyone.    The feel from the shaft (weight and feel of the shaft loading and unloading) can influence the swing for some individuals.  And some are more sensitive to changes in feel than others.

 

But on average more people will end up in that first camp.   Weight will be important and can influence the feel for a majority.     But a smaller percentage of individuals tend to be sensitive to that stiffness feel.

 

 

13 hours ago, dlow206 said:

for example, i cannot hit solid shots with the Modus 105. Never been able to hit solid shots with that shaft historically. And then during a fitting a few days back, the fitter was interchanging shafts without telling me what they were and i was also not looking at the graphics. He gave me a club, i hit a few and i was like what the hell did you give me, i hate this shaft. Modus 105.

 

If that's the only outlier that gives you problems, maybe it's because that shaft is roughly a full flex softer than most other shafts with the same flex label.   So your initial assumption of "roughly in the right flex" may not be true with this shaft despite what the labels might imply.

 

Of course that's just a guess since you gave no details on the flex used or the details of all the other specs that were in that set of shafts being tested.  And also assumes that all the other club specs were kept identical when switching shafts (head, playing length, grip size, swing weight) - which unfortunately isn't a very good assumption to make.

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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12 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

PX 6.5 and S300.  I didn't like the feel of either shaft from the get go and my misses were almost always toe side. 

Funny, PX 6 and 6.5 are my most hated shafts ever, and S300 is my most favourite ones!

The PX feels stiff as a board to me, and I could never get a good strike with them.

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12 hours ago, Denny100 said:

Ive seen videos online about this that will claim that shafts do nothing. Usually such video sees a player hitting clubs with shafts at massively different ends of the golfing spectrum, and then the results are shown from the launch monitor showing negligible differences when the weight, and flex are changed in the shafts. Thus supporting the hypothesis that the shaft does nothing.

 

I think this is bordering on click baiting, for a few reasons.

 

First of all, these people are not PLAYING golf. They are just stood, usually indoors, in a fitting room, in front of a simulator, hitting balls. So we have no idea how their perception of the shots they are hitting changes when they swing slightly harder, swing slightly softer, try and draw it, fade it, or anything associated with real life golf. Its purely a numbers game, with no thought given to what inspires confidence or feel.

 

Secondly, the test is over within lets guess, 20 balls with that particular shaft. We have no way of knowing if someone was to use the "wrong" shaft, day in, day out, for an extended period of time, how that would affect how he/she delivers the club for better or worse, or what compensations that person would end up making to overcome their perception of FEEL.

 

The final major flaw in this argument for me is that, from hitting in a repetitive motion, the person swinging gets into a groove that they dont get into on the course. So their delivery numbers become more in sync, no matter what they are hitting. It becomes robotic. Again, not reflective of real life.

 

I can definitely attest, at least from my perspective, that if youve got the wrong shafts, the following pattern happens:

 

1) If the weight is wrong for your swing, you deliver the club a little differently to the ball. If you go with a lighter shaft, you MAY swing more quickly, but this wont make any positive impact if your tempo and sequencing gets out of rhythm, and you deliver the club badly to the ball. Likewise, if the shaft is too heavy, itll have an adverse effect on your swing.

 

2) If the shaft is too stiff for your swing, you wont be able to "turn off" the feeling of swinging normally for you, and youll instinctively try to swing harder to get the shaft to "load". Youll try and make the shaft "work" from a feel perspective, and most likely deliver the club badly. Same with too soft of a flex....youll most likely purposefully slow your swing down, or be less aggressive in transition, to ensure you dont put much load into the shaft....and again, the results will probably be bad.

 

If you have the ability to become a robot with no feeling, and not react to any of these feelings....If you deliver the club 2 degrees outside in, and have an attack angle of 4 degrees down, and deliver a certain amount of dynamic loft, then yes, the ball is going to do the same thing with all the shafts, because youre delivering the same numbers.

 

I think the misconception is that people THINK they swing the same with all different shafts, and the shaft creates the ball flight.

 

Its more the case that the shaft MAKES YOU swing differently, or moves the strike point on the face, which then changes your numbers one way or another. And unless youve got no sense of feeling whatsoever, its highly likely this will have a massive effect on how you hit the ball in a real world scenario.

 

So in summary, it makes as big or small a difference as the way YOU react to the different shafts.

I think you just made a very major argument, and it’s one of my biggest, against fittings that take place over one day in a studio. 
 

I have been fitted 4 times. I even went to 3 fitters over 1 month before getting my last set of clubs. 
 

I had 3 different shaft recommendations . 
 

3 different iron recommendations. 
 

probably because at a 9HCP I brought different swings each day. 
 

after sampling and fitting myself with sets I have bought and sold…… I play zero sets and shafts I was fit for. 
 

You don’t know how you respond until you get in the course.

 

Kudos to the companies like Sub70, Edison, PXG, NL, Taylormade+ that have sample programs to let people try clubs/shafts on the course. 
 

you don’t  know until you are gaming them day in and day out. 
 

 

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3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

If that's the only outlier that gives you problems, maybe it's because that shaft is roughly a full flex softer than most other shafts with the same flex label.   So your initial assumption of "roughly in the right flex" may not be true with this shaft despite what the labels might imply

 

I wish I could find the Nippon EI graph, showing Modus models together.  It clearly shows the 125 and 105 being similar, with the 105 definitely softer.

 

I'm dropping to DGR and equivalents, and have picked up a couple 105 stiffs for testing.  Need to get going with that.  (Maybe not the smartest plan, considering I've switched to graphite, fodder for a different thread)

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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23 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I wish I could find the Nippon EI graph, showing Modus models together.  It clearly shows the 125 and 105 being similar, with the 105 definitely softer.

 

I'm dropping to DGR and equivalents, and have picked up a couple 105 stiffs for testing.  Need to get going with that.  (Maybe not the smartest plan, considering I've switched to graphite, fodder for a different thread)

 

 

All I've got is the Wishon data.   Except for the tip, the 105, 120, and 125 are some what similar.  It's  really just the 130 that's a completely different beast.

 

 

Capture.PNG

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And then I find it.  Go figure.

 

Personally, prefer Wishon data but this is a cute image

 

 

Screenshot_20221002-075809_Opera.jpg

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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, Tour Blue 85 X, 44" -or- Cobra Fly-Z+, Phenom NL 60 X, 44.5"

3w: King LTD, Aldila RIP Beta 90 X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X
Hybrid:  Cobra King Tec 2h, MMT 80 S -or- TEE CBX 17*, HZRDUS 85 6.0

2 iron:  Mizuno MP-20 HMB, Steelfiber i95 S, 39.5"

Irons grab bag:  1-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 1-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R; 3-AW Pinhawk Vertex irons, Apollo std stepped S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; PM Grind 19 58* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S -or- Ram TW282 SW -or- Ram TW276 SW
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34" -or- Rife Bimini, 34"
Balls: Chrome Soft, Kirkland Signature 3pc, Srixon Q Star Tour

Grip preference: various GripMaster leather options

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3 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I wish I could find the Nippon EI graph, showing Modus models together.  It clearly shows the 125 and 105 being similar, with the 105 definitely softer.

 

I'm dropping to DGR and equivalents, and have picked up a couple 105 stiffs for testing.  Need to get going with that.  (Maybe not the smartest plan, considering I've switched to graphite, fodder for a different thread)

 

 

The Modus 105 is every bit as stiff as the 125 and 130 in the handles, as stiff or stiffer than the 120 and 125 in the middle, but drops off considerably in the tip section.  It's interesting, I can hit Modus 105 all day long reasonably well, but the Modus 120 feels so soft to me.  I think I have figured out that my pass at the ball makes me very sensitive to the middle stiffness of shafts vs. the handle.  Here's an EI curve based on S3 data that uses lasers to sample every mm of the shaft from top to bottom and deflects the shaft at various points to detect its bend curve.  Unfortunately, there is no standard for this as we are all well aware and each OEM has their own system to generate these curves.  I just wish something like GEARS or ENSO would become the universal standard where you are watching the shaft in motion deflect in real time.  I think even doing it on an iron byron with GEARS or ENSO would be enormously more informative regarding what a shaft looks like during motion at certain swing speeds vs. the arbitrary fluff a lot of the shaft OEMs put out regarding what their shaft does.  We all know that it really is a crap shoot of what it says it does vs. what it does in reality a lot of times. 

 

Long winded story aside, I agree with @Howard_Jones that feel is the one thing we cannot fit for based on what a launch monitor tells us, but unequivocally can have some of the most drastic changes in performance for a player.  Most of the time, get a shaft that feels good and leads to effortless timing, the ball is going higher, farther, and straighter, no matter what the head is, the loft, the size of the head, etc. 

 

image.png.fd7d25e294d42f45478225a39a9ace5b.png

Edited by WristySwing
  • Like 1

I am on the quest for the clubs I hit the best, feel and looks be darned.

These below have my attention at the moment.

 

SIM - Rogue Silver 130

Speedzone Tour Big - Arcane

Rogue Sub Zero - Thump 

Ping i525 5-UW - Modus 120 Black Edition 

SM8 50/F, 54/D, 58/M - i123

Bettinardi Hive Custom - Spencer Levin Style

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