Go more upright lie angle on irons?

[boggyman]

With Irons that are 2* upright and seeing a toe strike pretty regularly, does this  sticker make sense? Need to be flat or  more upright? I thought upright was for when one is striking it towards or on the toe. Thanks! #confused

Edited October 3, 2022 by boggyman

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, boggyman said:

With Irons that are 2* upright and seeing a toe strike pretty regularly, does this  sticker make sense? Need to be flat or  more upright? I thought upright was for when one is striking it towards or on the toe. Thanks! #confused

 

Not sure exactly what you're asking.

 

I don't believe your lie angle influences whether you strike it toward the toe or the heel. Incorrect shaft length is often the cause of heel or toe strikes.

 

That sticker is for testing the lie angle of your clubs.

 

You take a ball, draw a straight line on it and place the line perfectly vertical; facing the club of course.

 

You then strike the ball with that sticker on the face as in your pic.

 

Where the line meets (hopefully) the center of the face, the line on the ball marks that face sticker.

 

Where the straight line shows on the face shows how that club needs to be adjusted. 👍

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by nsxguy

[Howard_Jones]

Those labels is made to judge ANGLES, its got nothing to do with heel or toe strikes.

[Denny100]

The lie angle is more how the club is going through the turf?

 

As in, the club could go through the turf squarely, but you might hit the toe. Alternatively, the loft might be misaligned too upright or too flat, but you might hit the middle of the face.

 

 

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, Denny100 said:

The lie angle is more how the club is going through the turf?

 

As in, the club could go through the turf squarely, but you might hit the toe. Alternatively, the loft might be misaligned too upright or too flat, but you might hit the middle of the face.

 

 

 

Not sure exactly what you're asking/saying.

 

The toe of the iron generally/usually/often "droops" at contact from its address position. For most(?), that means the toe should usually be slightly off the ground - to accommodate for the toe droop.

 

All other things being equal, the faster one swings the more the toe droops.

 

The reason you want the sole of the club to be parallel to the ground at contact is to start the ball on that line, yes ?

 

So if your lie angle, AT IMPACT, is too upright the balls starts to the draw side. Too flat and the ball starts to the fade side.

 

You can check your divot on a well struck shot and see if one side of the divot is deeper than the other side. If so, this is a sign the lie angle needs to be looked at.

[boggyman]

45 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Not sure exactly what you're asking/saying.

 

The toe of the iron generally/usually/often "droops" at contact from its address position. For most(?), that means the toe should usually be slightly off the ground - to accommodate for the toe droop.

 

All other things being equal, the faster one swings the more the toe droops.

 

The reason you want the sole of the club to be parallel to the ground at contact is to start the ball on that line, yes ?

 

So if your lie angle, AT IMPACT, is too upright the balls starts to the draw side. Too flat and the ball starts to the fade side.

 

You can check your divot on a well struck shot and see if one side of the divot is deeper than the other side. If so, this is a sign the lie angle needs to be looked at.

Divots are usually/normally pretty evenly distributed. My question is/was that if the “strike” pattern is seen heavy out in the toe did the irons need be flat per the sticker in the photo. I use to be able to hook a flat lie iron around a fence post, meaning the heel was digging I presume, causing the toe to turn over. What you say and make mention of makes sense as to how the toe flows through the turf… therefore, if they’re too flat the heel digs and causes the toe to turn over, correct?? If one’s line off the ball is vertical towards the toe per the photo, I’m seeing that the iron needs to be flat though. That’s why  I was confused. Sorry for babbling. 

[Rbsiedsc]

Strike pattern is usually weight and shaft feel related. Not lie angle

[bcflyguy1]

OP, pretty sure that sticker is meant to be used when striking balls with a fresh sharpie line drawn on them. Place the ball on the ground with the line perpendicular to the ground and facing 180* away from the intended target line. The sharpie line will leave a mark on the face tape that will coincide with the recommendation for lie angle adjustment.

As others have stated, lie angle adjustment will do little or nothing to help correct heel or toe strike pattern errors.

Edited October 3, 2022 by bcflyguy1

[ChipNRun]

You might consider whether the shafts are long enough for  you.

 

My old Callaway X20 Tours had 38" shaft on 5i, half-inch increments up and down set. I was having trouble with strikes on the line between Q3 and Q4. A fitter suggested that the shafts were 1/4" short for me, but that's too little to lengthen.

 

So, I started lining up my iron shots in Q2. This moved the strikes to the Q3-Q2 zone and more GIRs.

 

Next set was Tour Edge Exotics CB Pro Tungsten irons, with stock 5i shaft of 38.25". Easy to get center hits with this iron model.

 

Now I'm in the Mav MAXs - 38" 5i - and I'm getting most hits in Q4/Q3 zone. I got fit for them, recommended standard length, but once they arrived the toe-ish hits started. This time, back trouble may be contributing, as I don't always stay down and through shots. Will have to try adjustments over off-season to see if swing motion or length is main problem.

[nsxguy]

19 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I don't believe your lie angle influences whether you strike it toward the toe or the heel. Incorrect shaft length is often the cause of heel or toe strikes.

 

5 hours ago, boggyman said:

Divots are usually/normally pretty evenly distributed. My question is/was that if the “strike” pattern is seen heavy out in the toe did the irons need be flat per the sticker in the photo. I use to be able to hook a flat lie iron around a fence post, meaning the heel was digging I presume, causing the toe to turn over. What you say and make mention of makes sense as to how the toe flows through the turf… therefore, if they’re too flat the heel digs and causes the toe to turn over, correct?? If one’s line off the ball is vertical towards the toe per the photo, I’m seeing that the iron needs to be flat though. That’s why  I was confused. Sorry for babbling. 

 

OK, so we're good with shaft length likely being the culprit of heel/toe strikes, yes ?

 

As I understand it, a properly struck shot creates a divot starting in front of the ball.

 

So the ball's flight has already been decided at divot time.

 

If the toe or heel is digging in before the ball is struck you're in worse trouble than pulling/pushing/hooking/slicing.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by nsxguy

[CROUSE99]

23 hours ago, boggyman said:

Divots are usually/normally pretty evenly distributed. My question is/was that if the “strike” pattern is seen heavy out in the toe did the irons need be flat per the sticker in the photo. I use to be able to hook a flat lie iron around a fence post, meaning the heel was digging I presume, causing the toe to turn over. What you say and make mention of makes sense as to how the toe flows through the turf… therefore, if they’re too flat the heel digs and causes the toe to turn over, correct?? If one’s line off the ball is vertical towards the toe per the photo, I’m seeing that the iron needs to be flat though. That’s why  I was confused. Sorry for babbling. 

The sticker is not indicating where on the face the contact is, but rather, the angle of the mark from hitting a ball with a perpendicular Sharpie line on it.  Hitting it toward the toe or heel is not dependent on lie angle.  Could be a swing issue.  An example would be "standing up" during the swing which moves the toe toward the player.  There are plenty of other swing issues that could cause toe contact.  It could also be that the clubs are a little short for you.

[JCAG]

Remember on a properly hit iron, the ball is gone from the face before the clubhead hits the ground. It has nothing to do with turning the face open or closed upon hitting the ground. Rarely does lie angle have anything to do with where the ball strikes as in toe or heel hits. Toe or heel hits is a function of proper club length, not lie. 

[RobS]

There's no single answer asking the question on paper.  There could be an issue with maintaining posture coming in to impact.  The club path could be extreme from the inside or extremely over the top.  The player could be adjusting their set up to an upright club and delivering with their hands lower into impact.  The club could be to long and difficult to control.  The club could be too short and difficult to maintain posture and balance.  From a club spec standpoint, length and lie should be looked at as a combination. If you look at length in a vacuum, if your 5i is a half inch too long, wouldn't your 6 iron be just right?

[JZ75]

Different question on lie angle adjustments.  Did a fitting yesterday and the fitter recommended 2 degrees upright.  This was based on the sharpie test.  I also know I frequently see toe Down 2-3 degrees on a QCQuad.

 

The concern I have is that I tend to overdraw the ball (caused by delivering the club from the inside at around 5 degrees with a closed face) and my thinking is a lie angle adjustment will enhance this.  Additionally, I have been working on finishing with my hands low.  I'm not there yet but a bit concerned that when I get there, the clubs will need to be flattened.

 

Part of me says, keep the lie standard and fix the swing. The other part says, you went to a fitter for a reason, listen to him.

[Howard_Jones]

On 12/29/2022 at 7:16 PM, JZ75 said:

Different question on lie angle adjustments.  Did a fitting yesterday and the fitter recommended 2 degrees upright.  This was based on the sharpie test.  I also know I frequently see toe Down 2-3 degrees on a QCQuad.

 

The concern I have is that I tend to overdraw the ball (caused by delivering the club from the inside at around 5 degrees with a closed face) and my thinking is a lie angle adjustment will enhance this.  Additionally, I have been working on finishing with my hands low.  I'm not there yet but a bit concerned that when I get there, the clubs will need to be flattened.

 

Part of me says, keep the lie standard and fix the swing. The other part says, you went to a fitter for a reason, listen to him.

Let me educate you a little about how Face angle AND Lie angle is kind of "related", but still different specs and parameters.

If we make impact to the ball, with a face angle that 1.0* closed to path, that will cause a tilt on the balls spin axis of 3.0* to the left. So will a lie angle thats 1.0* upright at impact.

Your issue is really face angle closure, NOT lie angles, so at the moment, you are "misusing them", to get some ban aid for another issue, so lets solve them one at the time.

Start by checking how you address the club
(get a playing buddy to "look" if you have a square address or not, your judgement here could be wrong, and interfered by both offset, leading edge or simply wrong judgement)

Next is how "strong" you grip the club with the lowest hand. You might force too much face closure by the way you grip the club,

If both above is good, consider using a grip with LESS taper (that typical Golf Pride), so try either a +4 grip, or my suggestion for how to make a Asymetrical build up to straiten out the taper and get more diameter for the lowest hand.

This #3 option has done wonders for many players, so start with this, and if you see a trend where ball flight moves from draw against strait or fade, move on to lie angles.
 

[JZ75]

Thanks. The Pro I work with has commented that I close the face at address occasionally and it’s something I’m working on.  I’ll pay particular attention to that.

 

I’ll also stick to MCC+4 grips.  I’m going to go 1 degree upright on the new sticks.

Edited December 30, 2022 by JZ75
Added upright

[JCAG]

On 10/3/2022 at 1:11 PM, boggyman said:

Divots are usually/normally pretty evenly distributed. My question is/was that if the “strike” pattern is seen heavy out in the toe did the irons need be flat per the sticker in the photo. I use to be able to hook a flat lie iron around a fence post, meaning the heel was digging I presume, causing the toe to turn over. What you say and make mention of makes sense as to how the toe flows through the turf… therefore, if they’re too flat the heel digs and causes the toe to turn over, correct?? If one’s line off the ball is vertical towards the toe per the photo, I’m seeing that the iron needs to be flat though. That’s why  I was confused. Sorry for babbling. 

On a properly hit iron shot, the ball has left the face before the club sole hits the ground so the "damage" is already done.

[Howard_Jones]

22 minutes ago, JZ75 said:

Thanks. The Pro I work with has commented that I close the face at address occasionally and it’s something I’m working on.  I’ll pay particular attention to that.

 

I’ll also stick to MCC+4 grips.  I’m going to go 1 degree upright on the new sticks.

OK, if you are of those who have issues to address it square, it MIGHT help if you add some paint to the lowest groove. That delivers a contrast and strait line who some find helpful in address position

[JZ75]

1 minute ago, Howard_Jones said:

OK, if you are of those who have issues to address it square, it MIGHT help if you add some paint to the lowest groove. That delivers a contrast and strait line who some find helpful in address position

 

Funny you mention that, the new clubs are i230’s and have white paint on the bottom grove which I felt helped with alignment.

[Howard_Jones]

15 minutes ago, JZ75 said:

 

Funny you mention that, the new clubs are i230’s and have white paint on the bottom grove which I felt helped with alignment.

Thats what its made for...so with that AND +4 grips....its the player or your lower hand who grip the club with a "too strong grip" that cause too much face closure before impact....slow down wrist action (relax, use more time to close up), and focus on impact

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Howard_Jones