Is this Sandbagging?

[RCGA]

The scenario: Private club with lots of net and gross tournaments. Members all play 100+ rounds a year and do a good job entering scores.  

 

Because people are playing the same course day in and day out, year after year, some golfers don't grind out every single round; golf is more of a social thing regardless of skill level. They don't line up every putt (when they would during a tournament), they may take on higher-risk shots to keep things exciting (knowing your score can suffer), maybe they eyeball yardages instead of using a GPS/laser, etc. They're playing "honest" golf with a legit score, but it's ~2-5 shots higher than if they really tried. 

 

And because of all that, their handicap is inflated. These golfers are more likely to win net prizes compared to a golfer who, say, tries to score the best on every hole. 

 

Is that sandbagging? 

[jdl]

Sure. Depending on the person, may or may not be intentional. I know quite a few guys who play this way. Also one who rarely posts his "good" rounds because he was "just out with the guys having fun and not really trying".

[Pfish]

I play over 100 rounds, private course member, putt everything out and try very hard.  Most people probably play every day like you described. Some of my friends do. However I believe my scores are higher than the normal casual player you describe because I know all those short putts people tend to pick up don’t go in.  Therefore I have found in serious tournaments my scores are typically the same as always and the more casual players have higher scores than usual more than making up for potentially higher handicaps you theorize due to not paying attention.

[Abh159]

Golf is slow enough as is. I can only imagine how it would be if every single player was "grinding it out" on every single shot...

[Mr. Bean]

You guys sure have a huge problem ! ! !

 

Why don't you declare as practice rounds all those rounds you are not trying your best?? That way you do not have to post it and everybody's happy. Why grind your teeth about sandbagging???

 

I just don't get it...

[Klubster]

In reality, it probably does not affect the handicap much.  The handicap system really depends on your best rounds and throws out the high scores.  

[Wham49]

this is why I steer clear of anything with handicapped attached to it, I think everybody sandbaggs the hell out of their score, same in bowling, people blow off the rounds to start with a higher handicap.  I would not trust my money ever against somebodies handicap because I am not sure how much they sandbag. I am sure there are people who have an honest handicap, but how would you know till it is too late. My score is pretty different from the rounds I am just swinging to be social and when I buckle down and try to score my best, the problem is the handicapped system does not know the difference beteween the 2 rounds at least to my knowledge. I havent kept a handicap for many years becasue do not use it

[larrybud]

The solution is to only use event (tournament) scores for your handicap.

 

Yep, you have to manually figure it out, but it would nearly completely eliminate much of this.

 

[larrybud]

46 minutes ago, Klubster said:

In reality, it probably does not affect the handicap much.  The handicap system really depends on your best rounds and throws out the high scores.  

A high score replaces an old score, one of which has a 40% chance of being affecting your handicap calculation. So yes, high scores do "count", which is why your handicap can go UP.

 

[jomatty]

If the rules are to post them and they are not intentionally trying to raise their handicap I can’t see an issue.  I play a lot of walking rounds with a half set and posed a similar question not too long ago.  I was uncomfortable  entering the rounds as I knew they were likely to be a bit higher than playing with all my clubs in a tournament.  The consensus was that not only should I post the rounds but I have to post them.

[jomatty]

4 minutes ago, larrybud said:

6 minutes ago, larrybud said:

The solution is to only use event (tournament) scores for your handicap.

 

Yep, you have to manually figure it out, but it would nearly completely eliminate much of this.

 

What about those of us that play a lot of golf but only a few tournaments a year?  We just have the same handicap for years?  There are plenty of people that don’t play much tournament golf but want to compete from time to time.  It seems like those players could be playing with a big advantage or disadvantage depending on how their game changes over a few years…

[larrybud]

4 minutes ago, jomatty said:

 

 

You could always take the lower of the two indices.

 

In Michigan, the GAM takes your lowest index over the last 12 months. That's helped tremendously for net events. Don't see many "net 62s" anymore!

 

Also look into Dean Knuth Tournament Handicap System.

https://gapgolf.org/tournament-handicap-system/

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by larrybud

[golfinbrad]

57 minutes ago, larrybud said:

A high score replaces an old score, one of which has a 40% chance of being affecting your handicap calculation. So yes, high scores do "count", which is why your handicap can go UP.

 

Agreed.  I play in a member guest everyone with an old friend.  He is moving so dropping his membership.   I will not be playing in the future despite being asked by others.  Gets old seeing the same teams winning either flights every year.  People can pick them going in.  If you try best every round, even if you aren't playing well it will help level the playing field.  Grinding or trying your best does not lead to longer rounds. 

[Pepperturbo]

4 hours ago, RCGA said:

The scenario: Private club with lots of net and gross tournaments. Members all play 100+ rounds a year and do a good job entering scores.  

 

Because people are playing the same course day in and day out, year after year, some golfers don't grind out every single round; golf is more of a social thing regardless of skill level. They don't line up every putt (when they would during a tournament), they may take on higher-risk shots to keep things exciting (knowing your score can suffer), maybe they eyeball yardages instead of using a GPS/laser, etc. They're playing "honest" golf with a legit score, but it's ~2-5 shots higher than if they really tried. 

 

And because of all that, their handicap is inflated. These golfers are more likely to win net prizes compared to a golfer who, say, tries to score the best on every hole. 

 

Is that sandbagging? 

Its human nature to ebb and flow when playing lots of golf.  It's not sandbagging.   I was a member of two large private clubs, played with many golfers with different styles, in plenty of club tournaments as well as Interclub team match play.   The average golfer can NOT improve his game on command.  During tournaments, most people don't play nearly as well as they do during general play.

 

Sandbaggers play much better golf during causal play, but don't post those scores, leaving their higher scores to influence their index.

[nsxguy]

49 minutes ago, larrybud said:

The solution is to only use event (tournament) scores for your handicap.

 

Yep, you have to manually figure it out, but it would nearly completely eliminate much of this.

 

 

I suggest you send your solution to the WHS and see what they say.

 

35 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

You could always take the lower of the two indices.

 

In Michigan, the GAM takes your lowest index over the last 12 months. That's helped tremendously for net events. Don't see many "net 62s" anymore!

 

Also look into Dean Knuth Tournament Handicap System.

https://gapgolf.org/tournament-handicap-system/

 

 

Firstly that link is to the GAP, Golf Association of Philadelphia (not surprised they didn't called themselves the Philadelphia Golf Association  ).

 

Secondly, they modeled their system after the Knuth System,,,,,,,, and then changed it.

 

The article is from 2017, pre-WHS (which admittedly hasn't changed all that much to the U.S.).

 

They claim to have developed a system that gives as close to an even chance of everybody winning a net game by adjusting, per their pre-determined point system, the handicaps of players winning tournaments more often than the "should".

 

And finally, they refer to the same odds charts that we've seen for quite a while now, clearly demonstrating that higher handicappers have a better chance of shooting a low net than low handicappers.

 

It really drives me nutz that, over 100 years the USGA & R&A have been crunching millions of rounds and have spent an untold number of hours developing a system, and some outside agency thinks they know better.

 

Such as,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Quota games that change the quota/handicap 1 or 2 shots up or down on a single round.

 

Net games that change a 'cap downward by as many as five strokes on a single round (and bring it back up 1 stroke (max) at a time 🤦‍♀️).

 

Another quota game that boosts your quota for the next round by half the number of points over quota.

 

OK, so Knuth was very instrumental and clearly an expert. So why then is the GAP changing his system ? Who are they ?

 

But at least GAP is a large association in a major city.

 

Not some yahoo who's created the games I've mentioned above, that's played golf for 10 years and knows exactly how to make a game more fair. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Klubster said:

In reality, it probably does not affect the handicap much.  The handicap system really depends on your best rounds and throws out the high scores.  

 

So.... if I play 20 bad rounds because I do not try to play good rounds my handicap is not affected because "The handicap system really depends on your best rounds and throws out the high scores.  "

 

Right.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, jomatty said:

If the rules are to post them and they are not intentionally trying to raise their handicap I can’t see an issue.  I play a lot of walking rounds with a half set and posed a similar question not too long ago.  I was uncomfortable  entering the rounds as I knew they were likely to be a bit higher than playing with all my clubs in a tournament.  The consensus was that not only should I post the rounds but I have to post them.

 

You do NOT have to post the score of a round you beforehand declare to be a practice round. That has been the consensus on this forum.

 

BUT if you just play with a half set and try to play well you MUST post your scores.

 

I wonder what is unclear here.

[North Butte]

I play at a club much like the one OP describes but in my observation the opposite tendency is far, far more prevalent. For everyday play (100, 200 rounds a year) with your regular buddies nobody is putting out their 2-footers, they're moving the ball out of footprints in bunkers, taking free drops away from tree roots, playing two off the first tee if it's early in the morning, etc. The handicaps thereby achieved are anywhere from three to six strokes in the "vanity 'capping" direction which becomes obvious in the handful of tournament rounds they play each year under actual Rules of Golf. 

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, RCGA said:

The scenario: Private club with lots of net and gross tournaments. Members all play 100+ rounds a year and do a good job entering scores.  

 

Because people are playing the same course day in and day out, year after year, some golfers don't grind out every single round; golf is more of a social thing regardless of skill level. They don't line up every putt (when they would during a tournament), they may take on higher-risk shots to keep things exciting (knowing your score can suffer), maybe they eyeball yardages instead of using a GPS/laser, etc. They're playing "honest" golf with a legit score, but it's ~2-5 shots higher than if they really tried. 

 

And because of all that, their handicap is inflated. These golfers are more likely to win net prizes compared to a golfer who, say, tries to score the best on every hole. 

 

Is that sandbagging? 

 

No. It's not sandbagging if they're playing and posting by the rules.

 

The rules of handicapping, iirc, make no distinction between trying and "really" trying.

 

The way I look at it is this. Social or not, the guys you're concerned about are always playing for something, often $$$, sometimes a trophy.

 

Only 40% of their rounds are included in the 'cap and even shooting a "cap round" is no guarantee of winning anything.

 

So if they're playing for roughly the same amount(s) every round, they will lose far more $$$ by sandbagging than they would if they simply "tried" all the time.

 

And let's not forget the soft and hard caps, which keep upward movement somewhat in check over a (rolling) year's period.

 

And FWIW, in my travels I have noticed that most guys, especially higher handicappers, play worse in tournaments than they do in casual rounds. Especially when it's a true net score, as opposed to say, Stableford. YMMV.

 

Now if they're the kinds of "traveling baggers" we hear tell about, that's different, but that appears not to be what your issue is.

[mark m]

A player is expected to:

• Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage,
• Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,
• Submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes as soon as possible after the round is completed and before midnight local time,
• Submit acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability,
• Play by the Rules of Golf, and
• Certify the scores of fellow players.

[larrybud]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I suggest you send your solution to the WHS and see what they say.

 

What do I care what they say?

 

I think it's pretty clear to anybody who plays in any net tournaments for some time that sandbagging is rampant either purposefully, and/or current system doesn't work in practicality.

 

[klebs01]

42 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

What do I care what they say?

 

I think it's pretty clear to anybody who plays in any net tournaments for some time that sandbagging is rampant either purposefully, and/or current system doesn't work in practicality.

 

I think this is totally dependent on what types of events are believed played. Money games and club matches? I don’t see it much. People are outed quickly and get a reputation or kicked out of clothe club. Random anonymous tournament? Probably all the time. I think the issue is way overblown on this site. 

[Krt22]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

You guys sure have a huge problem ! ! !

 

Why don't you declare as practice rounds all those rounds you are not trying your best?? That way you do not have to post it and everybody's happy. Why grind your teeth about sandbagging???

 

I just don't get it...

Because it's too easy for someone to say "I was not trying my best" and not post good rounds

 

I would also say this "not trying hard" thing is real and there are certainly a few sandbaggers who fall into this group

 

But I would say the vanity club golfer is much more common due to generous gimmes, gentleman's doubles if you are out of a hole in a skins or team game, etc

[North Butte]

14 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Because it's too easy for someone to say "I was not trying my best" and not post good rounds

 

I would also say this "not trying hard" thing is real and there are certainly a few sandbaggers who fall into this group

 

But I would say the vanity club golfer is much more common due to generous gimmes, gentleman's doubles if you are out of a hole in a skins or team game, etc

There used to be one guy at my club who always cleaned up in net events. He was a 5-6 handicapper but unlike 90% of the guys in the club there was not an ounce of vanity 'capping (or IMO real sandbagging) in his index. He simply played the ball down, putting it out, took his penalty drops strictly as specified the Rules and treated every single round of his life as though he was in the final group of the club championship.

 

So guess what, when a tournament rolled around he's playing against a field full of "mid single digit" gimme takers, breakfast ball hitters, "just give me a six" picker uppers who couldn't break 90 playing by the Rules. He had a reputation for sandbagging but when I played with him I never saw him flub a putt late in a round any of that nonsense. 

[DaveLeeNC]

14 minutes ago, North Butte said:

There used to be one guy at my club who always cleaned up in net events. He was a 5-6 handicapper but unlike 90% of the guys in the club there was not an ounce of vanity 'capping (or IMO real sandbagging) in his index. He simply played the ball down, putting it out, took his penalty drops strictly as specified the Rules and treated every single round of his life as though he was in the final group of the club championship.

 

So guess what, when a tournament rolled around he's playing against a field full of "mid single digit" gimme takers, breakfast ball hitters, "just give me a six" picker uppers who couldn't break 90 playing by the Rules. He had a reputation for sandbagging but when I played with him I never saw him flub a putt late in a round any of that nonsense. 

 

Reminds me of the time that a friend ended up playing in a member/guest at a relatively swank club. "Tom" came back totally PO'ed. I asked him what the problem was and he said "putting a 2 foot putt was a brand new experience for my partner". Tom played well but they did not come close to winning. 

 

dave

[Krt22]

9 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Reminds me of the time that a friend ended up playing in a member/guest at a relatively swank club. "Tom" came back totally PO'ed. I asked him what the problem was and he said "putting a 2 foot putt was a brand new experience for my partner". Tom played well but they did not come close to winning. 

 

dave

You really do see A LOT of missed 2-3 footers during member-guest and the club championship 😂

[Klubster]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So.... if I play 20 bad rounds because I do not try to play good rounds my handicap is not affected because "The handicap system really depends on your best rounds and throws out the high scores.  "

 

Right.

I was speaking in relation to the original post where he stated they do not try as hard and score a couple strokes worse than if they really tried.  Not truly sandbagging. Personally, I would not enjoy playing rounds well below my ability just to pad my handicap for a tournament.

[Isaac_Newton]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You do NOT have to post the score of a round you beforehand declare to be a practice round. That has been the consensus on this forum.

 

BUT if you just play with a half set and try to play well you MUST post your scores.

 

I wonder what is unclear here.

Is that in the rules?  If so, I have never seen it.

[Isaac_Newton]

In my opinion, what you describe is not sand bagging. If we go down that road, then someone with a reliable draw shot trying to work a cut shot into the game could also be considered sand bagging, it's not. Missing 4 footers cause your partner is already in for par is sand bagging. 

 

Besides, the new soft and hard cap system does a god job of preventing large upward swings of handicaps. In my experience, it can work almost too well. We post all year in my area but still gets cold so not a lot of golf in the winter. I hit the soft cap in late winter and my handicap didn't move until I started shooting better scores.  

[naval2006]

2 hours ago, klebs01 said:

I think this is totally dependent on what types of events are believed played. Money games and club matches? I don’t see it much. People are outed quickly and get a reputation or kicked out of clothe club. Random anonymous tournament? Probably all the time. I think the issue is way overblown on this site. 

Sandbagging often sounds like a conspiracy theory in the forum.