Handicap system is broken for match play

[bladehunter]

2 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Speaking of matches getting out of hand, have any of you played the format where instead of the stronger player giving strokes you just play straight up until one player or the other goes 2-down. Then the player that's 2-down gets a stroke on each hole until he claws it back to 1-down.

 

It's still possible for one player or another to have a truly awful day and the match gets boring after 8-10 holes but the majority of the time it assures that the match will make it at least to the 15th or 16th hole.

Sounds good to me ! 

[bladehunter]

11 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Matters to you maybe, but not to me.

 

At least until the match is out of hand. Then it becomes a bit tedious for sure.

And that’s just a difference in perspective.  I’d much rather play well and lose than win playing so so.  Or badly.  I’m being very genuine here. And I’m sure I’m in the minority. But I show up to play well. Winning will be a byproduct of that or not.  I just have zero interest in a win that’s from playing badly.  Or the best of two bads.  That’s why I lose interest.  

[North Butte]

8 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

And that’s just a difference in perspective.  I’d much rather play well and lose than win playing so so.  Or badly.  I’m being very genuine here. And I’m sure I’m in the minority. But I show up to play well. Winning will be a byproduct of that or not.  I just have zero interest in a win that’s from playing badly.  Or the best of two bads.  That’s why I lose interest.  

Well then why not just go out and try to shoot your personal best score every day rather than entering comps. Or maybe that's mostly what you do. 

[bladehunter]

3 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Well then why not just go out and try to shoot your personal best score every day rather than entering comps. Or maybe that's mostly what you do. 

It is. I only play in 2-3 net events a year.  And it’s because I’m voted to the little committee that hosts them , and it’s expected that we participate in the larger ones.  
 

im not arguing against having them.  I’m very simply saying that I understand what pepper is saying.  It’s the quiet part that every low handicap knows but doesn’t say aloud .  If given the choice we’d all play heads up in an event vs like skills over a net comp.  Even if the net comps got us shots.  

[nsxguy]

44 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

And that’s just a difference in perspective.  I’d much rather play well and lose than win playing so so.  Or badly.  I’m being very genuine here. And I’m sure I’m in the minority. But I show up to play well. Winning will be a byproduct of that or not.  I just have zero interest in a win that’s from playing badly.  Or the best of two bads.  That’s why I lose interest.  

 

Yup, different perspective.

 

Of course I want to play well but the object of a competition is to win.

 

And if that means winning while not at my best, or in a tie match making bogie on 18 to beat my opponents double bogey, that's fine with me. ✌️

[Purple Toupee]

17 hours ago, bladehunter said:

It is. I only play in 2-3 net events a year.  And it’s because I’m voted to the little committee that hosts them , and it’s expected that we participate in the larger ones.  
 

im not arguing against having them.  I’m very simply saying that I understand what pepper is saying.  It’s the quiet part that every low handicap knows but doesn’t say aloud .  If given the choice we’d all play heads up in an event vs like skills over a net comp.  Even if the net comps got us shots.  

What do you mean you don’t say it aloud?  You guys say it aloud all the time on here!

[david.c.w]

2 comments on this issue:

 

First off (and most importantly), I think there is a lot of revisionist history when looking at match play results.  Everyone remembers getting smoked by the guy who got 10 pops.  No one remembers the easy 4&3 victory when they did not play that well, but the high handicap was in his pocket on 6 holes and they won the hole with a bogey.

 

Secondly, a lot of it is just luck of the draw.  I won our club's match play event 6 years ago.  There are 4 flights:  open, gold, blue, white.  We are allowed to enter multiple flights.  I played the gold and the blue.  In the blue I played a bunch of old guys who normally play the whites, but also entered the blues.  I was probably giving 10 pops to most of the seniors, and they kept it close on the front, but the back is a little longer and they were hitting driver-hybrid while i was hitting 3 wood-9 iron.  In the end they just could not hang.  In 6 rounds I only had 1 hard match playing the blues.  The flight winners then play each other.  I rolled against the whites and then beat the gold winner 1-up in extra holes.   So overall 8 matches, but only 2 were hard.  I was giving significant strokes to everyone except the last match against the gold winner.  Since that great draw I have lost to both high and low handicaps.  

 

 

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, Purple Toupee said:

What do you mean you don’t say it aloud?  You guys say it aloud all the time on here!

I don’t think I’ve ever read someone say what pepper said .  It’s not the same as griping about handicapping or similar. Two separate subjects.  
 

maybe I put words in his mouth ?  If so I have no issue owning it as my own thought.  I haven’t read anyone say that low handicap/scratch or better players prefer heads up play ***because it’s easier. **** Mentally meaning focus and physically , meaning how aggressive you have to be … it’s not on the same planet. 

this is not me saying net events are bad. Shouldnt happen or are unfair. That’s the normal narrative. This is me just saying my preference and why.  Very simple. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by bladehunter

[rogolf]

Just play in the events that you prefer.  Why torture yourself?

But, as someone said above, the objective is to win, and if that happens it really doesn't matter how you feel you played.  If you win and then say that you didn't really play well, how does that make everyone else feel and how does it make you look?  Be both a gracious winner and a gracious loser.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Just play in the events that you prefer.  Why torture yourself?

But, as someone said above, the objective is to win, and if that happens it really doesn't matter how you feel you played.  If you win and then say that you didn't really play well, how does that make everyone else feel and how does it make you look?  Be both a gracious winner and a gracious loser.

Always.  Never once said a word out of line to a person who wins.  I’m talking all internal dialogue here.  
 

I don’t think someone not playing well can be kept a secret anyway .  It’s not said out loud.  It’s just self evident. 
 

im giving you a perspective that is taboo.  But it’s real.  I don’t really see why it strikes so many nerves.  

[Pepperturbo]

22 hours ago, North Butte said:

While surely anyone would enjoy playing alongside a straight-hitting scratch golfer more than a ball-losing high handicapper (wouldn't they?), you're kind of confusing things by talking about your disdain for playing with hackers in general in a thread about "handicap system is broken". There's no conceivable handicap system that's going to make you enjoy playing with guys who aren't as good as you, from what it sounds like.

I play a lot of golf with what YOU refer to as hackers...many of my friends are in the category.  During all my years in match play because most clubs lack substantial low/scratch players; hence, I had to face off against mid to hi caps most of the time. 

 

There is NO disdain, just needed patience for their level of game.  In competition against someone who's getting as many as 2 strokes per hole, low-single or scratch players have to adjust to accommodate their time and play demand, calling for patience, while busting a** to insure every stroke we make is executed.  The hi-cap opponent doesn't have those problems as he gets free strokes. 

 

I don't know why others think the handicap system is broken; but it's said rather often.  I think it falls under the saying: Can't make everyone happy.  I don't concern myself with issues I can't change. 

 

Yep, it's far more enjoyable and calmly motivating to play against someone in my handi area or better.   At my last club I often signed up for scratch category knowing I could hit a buz-saw, but his level of play matches mine, so enjoyable, and I still had a chance to win, and did intermittently.  A real fun best as a -2 was beating a +2 in a match, 4 and 3.  Damn that stinky ole handicap system; giving strokes in a stroke play or match, rings politically motivated. LOL

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[mark m]

On 11/13/2022 at 2:40 PM, bladehunter said:

And that’s just a difference in perspective.  I’d much rather play well and lose than win playing so so.  Or badly.  I’m being very genuine here. And I’m sure I’m in the minority. But I show up to play well. Winning will be a byproduct of that or not.  I just have zero interest in a win that’s from playing badly.  Or the best of two bads.  That’s why I lose interest.  

I feel the same way. “Red Golf Blue Golf” by Philip Chesters covers this difference. Forged4Ever recommended it in a thread years ago. It’s a good book. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by mark m

[bladehunter]

25 minutes ago, mark m said:

I feel the same way. “Red Golf Blue Golf” by Philip Chesters covers this difference. Forged4Ever recommended it in a thread years ago. It’s a good book. 

 

 

 

 

1000 % yes !   I don’t want to derail the thread , but that’s exactly how I see it.  Due to childhood circumstances plus a few born circumstances,  I lost ( or never had ) most of my “ give a crap  about what others think “ gene.  I play for me.  Live for me , dress for me etc.  
 

and I’m ordering that book now.  Thank you for the suggestion.  If Richard recommends it , it has to be 👍 good ! 

[mark m]

15 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

1000 % yes !   I don’t want to derail the thread , but that’s exactly how I see it.  Due to childhood circumstances plus a few born circumstances,  I lost ( or never had ) most of my “ give a crap  about what others think “ gene.  I play for me.  Live for me , dress for me etc.  
 

and I’m ordering that book now.  Thank you for the suggestion.  If Richard recommends it , it has to be 👍 good ! 

$4.99 Kindle

 

Pepper may have read it. It’s short and sweet with numerous links if you want to dive deep on certain topics. Starts out talking about the Navy Seals an how mental it all is. Too many otherwise good studs were failing. I was always oriented that way (towards mastery), but slipped a little around age 52. It made me laugh out loud at myself, and return to better form. Thank you Richard!

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by mark m

[T_Golf_23]

On 11/13/2022 at 3:16 PM, bladehunter said:

It’s not really  that. I play with loads of skill levels weekly.  And am just fine with it.  It’s when it comes to real competition….. I just know what turbo is saying.  There’s no juice.  No flow. It’s just not the same thing.  
 

think of it in race car terminology.  2 cars running together cab draft off each other and run faster than one equal car ever can.  Or. You can put one slower car out front of the one equal faster car and the slower car will in turn slow the faster car down by a lot.    I absolutely believe  that the more time it takes between shots the harder it is.  The reason isn’t at all a factor.  It’s just the time.  You can never develop a rhythm.  I’m just telling which is harder.  Per my perception.  
 

imagine also being the longest player in the group.  That’s a skill nobody ever talks about.  How to be the guy who plays last.  But hits it’s less often.  
 

I get it. Eyes will roll. I’m not complaining as much as I’m just saying. I know what he’s saying as far as easier 

So very true…. 

[underwater]

This is a real concern, the GHIN system can theoretically be broken in a match play situation.  I play in a money game (pig and wolf) with a golfer I have to give 8 strokes to.  I NEVER win.  If we play 24 different days, I win money twice, he wins 22 times.  

 

The situation - Im a 4.1, he's an 11 hc.  The course rating puts us spread of 8 points.

 

The problem lays in the notion that he plays 4 days a week at the same course (this is relevant because he largely knows where to miss except when the course comes up and bites him).  I play twice a month.  So his typical golf style is that he goes par, par, triple, par par par, quad, par, par, birdie.

 

This destroys me in a game where money is awarded by hole (match play).  If it were stroke play his blow ups would accumulate.   So in effect he plays like me except for the occasional blow-up hole.  And he isn't sandbagging.  I've witnessed his blowups.  He'll shank one into the lake and then take off his shoe and desperately try to get it out.  Or his putt will horseshoe out and roll all the way back almost off the green.  It's not like he is missing makable shots intentionally in sandbagging fashion.

 

So THIS pattern of play keeps his GHIN high, but he wins at matchplay style money games.  Statistics of me (and some of the other low hc guys) always having to pay him, over a large amount of rounds, demonstrates clearly that the system doesn't support match play.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by underwater

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, underwater said:

This is a real concern, the GHIN system can theoretically be broken in a match play situation.  I play in a money game (pig and wolf) with a golfer I have to give 8 strokes to.  I NEVER win.  If we play 24 different days, I win money twice, he wins 22 times.  

 

The situation - Im a 4.1, he's an 11 hc.  The course rating puts us spread of 8 points.

 

The problem lays in the notion that he plays 4 days a week at the same course (this is relevant because he largely knows where to miss except when the course comes up and bites him).  I play twice a month.  So his typical golf style is that he goes par, par, triple, par par par, quad, par, par, birdie.

 

This destroys me in a game where money is awarded by hole (match play).  If it were stroke play his blow ups would accumulate.   So in effect he plays like me except for the occasional blow-up hole.  And he isn't sandbagging.  I've witnessed his blowups.  He'll shank one into the lake and then take off his shoe and desperately try to get it out.  Or his putt will horseshoe out and roll all the way back almost off the green.  It's not like he is missing makable shots intentionally in sandbagging fashion.

 

So THIS pattern of play keeps his GHIN high, but he wins at matchplay style money games.  Statistics of me (and some of the other low hc guys) always having to pay him, over a large amount of rounds, demonstrates clearly that the system doesn't support match play.

 

 

Well, this is different. I googled "golf game "pig and wolf"" and got exactly ONE hit; and that was a Facebook post where a guy said, "Pig and wolf is even better" (to a Golf magazine article on "Wolf" (which I HAVE heard of).

 

So I guess I have no idea what "pig and wolf" is. But you do suggest it's simply "match play". If not, I wonder if it's a valid round for handicap purposes. Guess it depends on the game. I think the game of "wolf", which I am vaguely familiar with, would NOT be valid for handicaps.

 

Anywho, there is definitely something to a "home course advantage". But, you said you play twice a month. Do you play at the same course as your buddy ? If so, he shouldn't have THAT much of a home course advantage.

 

Anywho, your main problem, assuming 1-on-1 match play, is his game of a few bad holes; otherwise, he seems almost as consistent as you are. Not good. BUT.

 

However, for his triples and quads, not all strokes will count toward his handicap index. You DO know that some of those strokes will be taken off his final score for handicap purposes, as the most he can take for his 'cap is "net double bogey" on any single hole, yes ?

 

Anyway, even given these circumstances, you winning only 8% of the time would seem to be well below expectations. But yes, this type of golfer can be difficult to beat under the current system.

 

I would think the only way you could "fix" this is to point out how often he wins, why you believe his 'cap is "skewed" higher, and see if he'll take fewer strokes. If not, your only realistic option is to find another guy to play.

 

I've done similar with guys in my old club. I might be giving only 4 shots but if he keeps losing (and his 'cap is adjusting quickly enough) simply because of poor play he'll ask for another shot, occasionally 2, and I'll give him the extra because we're friends.

 

And sometimes vice versa. We're not looking to beat each other's brains out.

 

Hope this helps.

[underwater]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, this is different. I googled "golf game "pig and wolf"" and got exactly ONE hit; and that was a Facebook post where a guy said, "Pig and wolf is even better" (to a Golf magazine article on "Wolf" (which I HAVE heard of).

 

So I guess I have no idea what "pig and wolf" is. But you do suggest it's simply "match play". If not, I wonder if it's a valid round for handicap purposes. Guess it depends on the game. I think the game of "wolf", which I am vaguely familiar with, would NOT be valid for handicaps.

 

Anywho, there is definitely something to a "home course advantage". But, you said you play twice a month. Do you play at the same course as your buddy ? If so, he shouldn't have THAT much of a home course advantage.

 

Anywho, your main problem, assuming 1-on-1 match play, is his game of a few bad holes; otherwise, he seems almost as consistent as you are. Not good. BUT.

 

However, for his triples and quads, not all strokes will count toward his handicap index. You DO know that some of those strokes will be taken off his final score for handicap purposes, as the most he can take for his 'cap is "net double bogey" on any single hole, yes ?

 

Anyway, even given these circumstances, you winning only 8% of the time would seem to be well below expectations. But yes, this type of golfer can be difficult to beat under the current system.

 

I would think the only way you could "fix" this is to point out how often he wins, why you believe his 'cap is "skewed" higher, and see if he'll take fewer strokes. If not, your only realistic option is to find another guy to play.

 

I've done similar with guys in my old club. I might be giving only 4 shots but if he keeps losing (and his 'cap is adjusting quickly enough) simply because of poor play he'll ask for another shot, occasionally 2, and I'll give him the extra because we're friends.

 

And sometimes vice versa. We're not looking to beat each other's brains out.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

2 things.

 

1.  Pig and Wolf is a classic golf gambling game.  Maybe some places call it "the wolf" but I've been playing it for 25 years in multiple states with countless opponents. around). With pig, a person who gets picked to be a partner (the Pig) can choose to let the Wolf play solo.
In this instance, all bets double.

 

2. Yeah, you're probably onto something.   This guy plugs in his GHIN scores "Front/Back" instead of hole by hole.  Might have to call him out on that, but it's still an option for entry. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by underwater

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, underwater said:

 

 

2 things.

 

1.  Pig and Wolf is a classic golf gambling game.  Maybe some places call it "the wolf" but I've been playing it for 25 years in multiple states with countless opponents. around). With pig, a person who gets picked to be a partner (the Pig) can choose to let the Wolf play solo.
In this instance, all bets double.

 

2. Yeah, you're probably onto something.   This guy plugs in his GHIN scores "Front/Back" instead of hole by hole.  Might have to call him out on that, but it's still an option for entry. 

 

Funny google couldn't find the "Pig" portion.

 

Wolf I've heard of. Only played it a couple of times. Don't really recall having the option of a player being able to refuse the partnership though. In the game I played, iirc, the "Wolf" has the only option. The player picked, if any, has no choice.

 

Nothing wrong with F&B, or just total, so long as the score's adjusted properly. Personally, I put in either front and back, or the total. I never use the HBH option.

 

If he's not doing hole-by-hole though, and if he's making all those trips and quads almost every round as you say he is, if he's NOT adjusting those trips and quads, his 'cap is almost definitely inflated. 👍

[underwater]

31 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Funny google couldn't find the "Pig" portion.

 

Wolf I've heard of. Only played it a couple of times. Don't really recall having the option of a player being able to refuse the partnership though. In the game I played, iirc, the "Wolf" has the only option.

 

No biggy, but it's fairly ubiquitous.  Pig and wolf, Wolf and Hog, etc.  

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by underwater