Has anyone actually fixed a flip? Did your scores go down?

[TravAz]

Hi guys - I am trying to prioritize my improvement. I'm currently somewhere in the single digits trying to get to scratch and have dreams of competing in age-appropriate local stuff. 

 

On camera, my irons have a vertical shaft at impact. I release the club decently and wouldn't call it a 'flip' but it is 'flippy'. On the plus side, I hit laser straight, towering iron shots that will hold any green. On the down side, I feel like I am leaving 15yd on the table based on ball speeds and launch angles etc and wind is not my friend. That being said, I will give myself 5-8 descent looks at birdie per round ( < 20ft) in a good round, but I can have really bad rounds too so there are consistency gains to be had as well. Overall though, I feel like I have achieved some level of "functional". 

 

My shortgame and putting also need a bunch of attention. Like ALOT. 

 

I've tried to fix the impact position (its actually improved quite a bit). I feel like it is such a massive change though, I am questioning if it is worth it. Switching seems like it would take tons of practice and then figure out when\how to take it to the course etc. 

 

What is your experience, WRX? If you have fixed a flip, how did you do it, how long did it take, and was it worth it from a scoring perspective?

[MonteScheinblum]

You can’t “fix” impact.  Your issues are the result of something earlier. 

[TravAz]

37 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You can’t “fix” impact.  Your issues are the result of something earlier. 

 

100% agree. It's probably a complete teardown\rebuild starting from setup\takeaway. 

 

[jholz]

The ancients believed that an open face angle at impact was the primary "fault" that led to flipping. It is, perhaps, but one of many answers to this eternal question.  

 

If only Leonard Nimoy were still around to provide us with answers. 

[golfarb1]

For the vast majority of golfers , flipping is highly ingrained in their release pattern . 
and will not be changed without a conscious effort to eliminate it . 
You will not change it with normal speed , normal length swings . You need to do exaggeration drills to overcome such an ingrained pattern
What does flipping accomplish ?  Simple stated it closes the clubface . To eliminate it , you must substitute other ways to close the clubface. These include- a stronger grip-minimizing rolling of the forearms in your takeaway-right wrist extension both going back and in transition and most of all -a  stronger pivot . 
The pain involved in eliminating the flip may not be worth the pain involved, especially when some tour winners have succeeded with a somewhat flippy release 

 

if you desire to eliminate the flip

start with “pelvic punch “ drills. 

Take the club back to about 7:30 or 8:00 with very little wrist set. Stop for a short period of time and then hit the ball . You will forced to rotate your ribcage aggressively in order to compress the ball 

Then do the same , but take it back to 7:30 or 8:00 with some wrist set

Substituting good habits for old incorrect habits is neither easy nor fun
 

Edited October 5, 2022 by golfarb1

[Krt22]

Sasho Mackenzie did a simulation using his theoretical swing model. He had one model of the typical amateur flipper and one model of professional hands forward at impact, he then introduced the same level of random variance to each model, ran a bunch of iterations, and recorded the shot distribution. The pro model ultimately had a tighter shot distribution, despite being subject to the same amount of random variance.

 

Basically your margin for error is greater when you have some shaft lean (which is dependent on your speed). You are more likely to hit the sweet spot and have proper ground contact if you get your hands in front of the ball via proper sequencing, pressure shift, etc.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Krt22

[Wham49]

2 hours ago, TravAz said:

Hi guys - I am trying to prioritize my improvement. I'm currently somewhere in the single digits trying to get to scratch and have dreams of competing in age-appropriate local stuff. 

 

On camera, my irons have a vertical shaft at impact. I release the club decently and wouldn't call it a 'flip' but it is 'flippy'. On the plus side, I hit laser straight, towering iron shots that will hold any green. On the down side, I feel like I am leaving 15yd on the table based on ball speeds and launch angles etc and wind is not my friend. That being said, I will give myself 5-8 descent looks at birdie per round ( < 20ft) in a good round, but I can have really bad rounds too so there are consistency gains to be had as well. Overall though, I feel like I have achieved some level of "functional". 

 

My shortgame and putting also need a bunch of attention. Like ALOT. 

 

I've tried to fix the impact position (its actually improved quite a bit). I feel like it is such a massive change though, I am questioning if it is worth it. Switching seems like it would take tons of practice and then figure out when\how to take it to the course etc. 

 

What is your experience, WRX? If you have fixed a flip, how did you do it, how long did it take, and was it worth it from a scoring perspective?

"My shortgame and putting also need a bunch of attention. Like ALOT. "

 

I would forget everything else and work on that, biggest reducer of score, I need much attention to my iron play but i put it off becasue I am a 5-7 handicap and only hit a handful of greens a round, chipping and putting carries my score every round almost, can always get more acurate later

[Trippels]

21 minutes ago, Wham49 said:

"My shortgame and putting also need a bunch of attention. Like ALOT. "

 

I would forget everything else and work on that, biggest reducer of score, I need much attention to my iron play but i put it off becasue I am a 5-7 handicap and only hit a handful of greens a round, chipping and putting carries my score every round almost, can always get more acurate later

[SUPERG]

I deal with the same issue and it has been very hard to fix but the gains are not impossible. I was highly frustrated playing at a 6 HCP former football player 6'2 and heavy I was barely hitting my 7Iron (718 CB weak lofted) 150 and my drives were straight but spun hard and stopped around 260. Did several lessons only to find out if I fix my slide toward target at impact I can manage the flip and have my hand at least a tiny bit ahead. I do drills almost daily to fix this fully, and it has been a very long road (8 months) and I can say I have not really gained much distance, but I have lost the block and the snap hook. The juice is worth the squeeze because you don't have to tear down the whole swing, and keep golfing the way you have to keep scores low. 

 

For me, I have to slow it way down and put a rod next to me leading hip, I bump only about 4-5 inches and then extend and turn to get the correct release. on top of this you have to learn to keep the wrists back and not flipping to close the face. Because of this my main miss is now a hook, but I can manage it better than the sky block with no distance. 

 

Short game, go ahead and focus because you can get away with most of your habits there, these other changes take time and effort but can be part of the golf journey and don't open you to a period of rebuilding. Monet chimed in at the top but his videos on YT helped me a lot, shortening the swing etc..... 

[Fuscinator]

You could try a super strong lead hand grip, at least as an experiment. It's got built in shaft lean, and if you flip it, you'll kill anyone standing behind you. 

[TravAz]

5 hours ago, Trippels said:

I wish I was smart enough to understand this 😂 🤷‍♂️

[wagolfer7]

8 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

especially when some tour winners have succeeded with a somewhat flippy release 

 

So who are these tour winners that don't have shaft lean at impact with their irons? 

[Chunkitgood]

I have “fixed a flip” if by that you mean learned to hit the ball before I hit the ground aka have shaft lean aka not add loft aka take divots in front of the ball.  Not saying I am a great golfer or anything, and at my age and lack of desire to practice much may never be that good, but I did learn to use the club more or less the way it is designed to be used.

 

It required learning how to pivot and transition properly, which not surprisingly in hindsight resolved the questions and issues I used to have about what to do with my arms and hands.

 

I find a lot of high 70’s shooters I known over the years are IMO overly invested in their swings, which remain the same over the years.  I always enjoyed golf but it was never a serious thing for me, and I knew my swing while consistent was not really the way it should be done, so at some point I just decided to learn to do it right as a sort of intellectual exercise.

 

I could tell you in any level of detail how I think a proper swing happens, but why would you believe it?

 

The only advice I will give you is that IMO proper contact absolutely requires proper engagement of the large muscles of the legs and torso in the proper sequence, and that in my experience proper engagement of the large muscles of the torso and legs in the proper sequence will tend to result in proper contact.

[golfarb1]

2 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

So who are these tour winners that don't have shaft lean at impact with their irons? 

Brian Gay , Rickie Fowler among others  have had flippy type releases 

 

Below is a still of Rickie just past impact .

 

Now obviously these  players are tour winners and their flippy releases will be quite different than the club  golfer , even if they are flawed . In the top players examples , they usually combine an out of synch condition and then a quick disconnect of their upper arms from their torso resulting in the clubface closing quickly after impact .

 

There is another problem for club players in attempting to achieve shaft lean  . If such players do not have sufficient clubhead speed , they will not launch the ball high enough with shaft lean and they will lose distance 

Edited October 6, 2022 by golfarb1

[wagolfer7]

2 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Brian Gay , Rickie Fowler among others 

 

Below is a still of Rickie just past impact .

 

Now obviously these  players are tour winners and their flippy releases will be quite different than the club  golfer , even if they are flawed . In the top players examples , they usually combine a stall and then a quick disconnect of their upper arms from their torso resulting in the clubface closing quickly after impact .

 

There is another problem for club players in attempting to achieve shaft lean  . If such players do not have sufficient clubhead speed , they will not launch the ball high enough with shaft lean and they will lose distance 

That's not a flip. Hands ahead at impact with shaft lean.  

 

A flip is not just turning the clubhead over. With amateurs a lot of times a flip is tied together with early extension. They flip to not miss the ball, it's not just closing the face.  It's more of a space issue between golfer and ball.  A flip allows them to put the face on it with less space than they started with.  

 

Comparing that to pga players that turn the club a little more quickly after impact is not an accurate comparison.  

 

I don't think anyone would teach against proper mechanics and having the hands ahead.  Regardless of swing speed. You'd lessen shaft lean with setup and ball position and equipment.  

[golfarb1]

2 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

That's not a flip. Hands ahead at impact with shaft lean.  

 

A flip is not just turning the clubhead over. With amateurs a lot of times a flip is tied together with early extension. They flip to not miss the ball, it's not just closing the face.  It's more of a space issue between golfer and ball.  A flip allows them to put the face on it with less space than they started with.  

 

Comparing that to pga players that turn the club a little more quickly after impact is not an accurate comparison.  

 

I don't think anyone would teach against proper mechanics and having the hands ahead.  Regardless of swing speed. You'd lessen shaft lean with setup and ball position and equipment.  

You are incorrect . Turning the toe over quickly past impact is flipping , but as I clearly stated , it is DIFFERENT than the flip of club players . And Look at the below still of Brian Gay just past impact . He combines flipping with EE. If you do not consider that “ humpin the goat “ then I have no idea what you mean by EE . And Brian Gay compensates for his flippy release by playing the ball further back in his stance with irons . 

 Please ask any pro who has ready access to a Trackman , if he suggests more shaft lean for players with insufficient clubhead speed . The Trackman stats clearly and consistently argue doing so 

[wagolfer7]

41 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

You are incorrect . Turning the toe over quickly past impact is flipping , but as I clearly stated , it is DIFFERENT than the flip of club players . And Look at the below still of Brian Gay just past impact . He combines flipping with EE. If you do not consider that “ humpin the goat “ then I have no idea what you mean by EE . And Brian Gay compensates for his flippy release by playing the ball further back in his stance with irons . 

 Please ask any pro who has ready access to a Trackman , if he suggests more shaft lean for players with insufficient clubhead speed . The Trackman stats clearly and consistently argue doing so 

Why point out these pga players that supposedly flip, when it's not the same as OP flip? Why even mention it, if they are not the same? 

 

Having to allow the clubhead to get ahead of the hands to hit the ball at impact is flipping.  Does the toe turn over? Yes.  But it's the fact that you let the clubhead get ahead of your hands and have no shaft lean that makes it a flip. 

 

Your putting up stills of pga players post impact DTL, when you should be posting Face On at impact.  OP is talking about having his hands behind the ball at impact with no shaft lean. It's not even the same topic. 

 

And again never said a pro would promote more shaft lean.  I said no pro would recommend flipping at the ball regardless of clubhead speed. 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by wagolfer7

[ChaosTheory]

Back to helping the OP.

 I fixed my flip in a simple way.  But it required an off season.

 

Every day during the winter I made some swings on our thick-ish carpeting that would let me see where the club was hitting.  (The carpet didn’t show the wear, amazingly.)

 

I was just trying to move my low point forward.  It’s fairly easy with no ball.  With a ball, it’s almost impossible.  Long story short, when spring arrived and I struck my first shot off a mat at the range, trumpets played and angels sang.

 

The daily swings over four months ingrained the new pattern.

 

The ball is the problem, at least according to your golf brain.

 

 

[Zitlow]

The reason people flip is because their concept of when and how to release the club is wrong which is exasperated by not knowing how to aim the shaft and clubface on the plane the ball is on in the backswing. 

 

 

[Wham49]

19 hours ago, Trippels said:

no idea brother, I assume you are making fun of my comment

[ThePaineTrain]

20 hours ago, Trippels said:

To explain I think this is a diagram of where bullets impacted a typical bomber plane returning from a mission during WWII. The engineers, seeing these impact patterns, decided to reinforce these sections of the plane. However, these sections did not actually need the reinforcement: these impacts were from planes that had made it safely back to base, but the planes that never made it back were taking impacts in the unmarked sections. Whether it's a true story or not, the moral is I think that applying the "obvious" fix might not always be the best? Tbh I'm not really sure how it applies here

Edited October 6, 2022 by ThePaineTrain
Clarification

[TravAz]

54 minutes ago, ThePaineTrain said:

To explain I think this is a diagram of where bullets impacted a typical bomber plane returning from a mission during WWII. The engineers, seeing these impact patterns, decided to reinforce these sections of the plane. However, these sections did not actually need the reinforcement: these impacts were from planes that had made it safely back to base, but the planes that never made it back were taking impacts in the unmarked sections. Whether it's a true story or not, the moral is I think that applying the "obvious" fix might not always be the best? Tbh I'm not really sure how it applies here

[TravAz]

6 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

Back to helping the OP.

 I fixed my flip in a simple way.  But it required an off season.

 

I struck my first shot off a mat at the range, trumpets played and angels sang.

 

 

 

 

So 2nd part of my question - Did your scores go down?

[wagolfer7]

6 minutes ago, TravAz said:

So 2nd part of my question - Did your scores go down?

If your goal is to get to scratch, your going to want to learn how to get your hands ahead at impact with shaft lean.  

 

As @Krt22 pointed out - having this in place greatly improves your dispersion.  In other words - better misses.  As you improve, you understand more that golf is a game of misses.  Sometimes you hit the shot you are trying to...most of the times you don't.  But when you don't, if it's not that far off, then you still end up on the green on approach shots or end up slightly in the rough off the tee, etc.  Better misses improves your score - better misses means better swing - better swing means no flip at impact. 

 

To put it another way - good ball strikers have the clubhead square all the way through impact zone.  An amateur golfer that flips - is trying to square the club right at impact which requires a ton of timing.

 

If you want to be able to control trajectory on your shots and have consistency, then fixing your flip is a must as well.      

[airjammer]

On 10/5/2022 at 11:29 AM, TravAz said:

Hi guys - I am trying to prioritize my improvement. I'm currently somewhere in the single digits trying to get to scratch and have dreams of competing in age-appropriate local stuff. 

 

On camera, my irons have a vertical shaft at impact. I release the club decently and wouldn't call it a 'flip' but it is 'flippy'. On the plus side, I hit laser straight, towering iron shots that will hold any green. On the down side, I feel like I am leaving 15yd on the table based on ball speeds and launch angles etc and wind is not my friend. That being said, I will give myself 5-8 descent looks at birdie per round ( < 20ft) in a good round, but I can have really bad rounds too so there are consistency gains to be had as well. Overall though, I feel like I have achieved some level of "functional". 

 

My shortgame and putting also need a bunch of attention. Like ALOT. 

 

I've tried to fix the impact position (its actually improved quite a bit). I feel like it is such a massive change though, I am questioning if it is worth it. Switching seems like it would take tons of practice and then figure out when\how to take it to the course etc. 

 

What is your experience, WRX? If you have fixed a flip, how did you do it, how long did it take, and was it worth it from a scoring perspective?

This was me about 15 or so years ago.  My shaft was vertical and I hit the highest drives most people had even seen. My had a lot lateral movement towards the target and my shoulders and hips were square at impact but I flipped it square. I rarely missed greens but any time the wind was above 10-15mph I hated playing and usually wouldn’t. 
 

I’ve spent way too many hours I care to admit fixing the problems that I had. I had the free time to do it thou so that was fine. If I had was married or had kids at the time I would have looked back and said it wasn’t worth it. 
 

Having played this game for over 20 years I can say I’ve never met a player that got any better with that pattern so what are your goals? If it’s just to whack it around with the boys or family…I say leave it. If you want to play amateur tournament golf, then find you a good coach.  Once you feel the compression of a perfectly struck shot with shaft lean you won’t want to hit the ball any other way. 

[TravAz]

After reading everyone's thoughts, this is what I have come up with:

 

- I am trying to play lots of golf right now. Goal is to walk 18 holes every day in october. I'm in phoenix and almost everything is shut down for overseeding and I can't really hit balls except into the net. I *CANNOT* play golf with "swing thoughts" so I am going to spend 15-30 mins a day hitting into the net with mechanical practice that is not "swing thought" based like holding an alignment stick with the club and trying not to lash myself, etc. 

- I consider myself a good putter, but I am not making alot of putts right now. I'm going to hit 50 6 foot putts per day and track my make\miss percentage. 

- I have stripped down my chipping\pitching to pretty basic techniques with low expectations. I have always tried to knock everything super close, but without the skills to match my imagination, resulting in lots of doubles +. Now I am trying to use the lowest risk technique that will get me within 10 feet and lean on the putter. I'm assuming with the number of greens I miss I will get lots of practice through normal playing 🤣

 

I'll give it a month before I go seek professional help, where someone tries to sell me a 300 hour lesson package to fix my grip or whatever 🙄

[TravAz]

10 minutes ago, airjammer said:

I’ve spent way too many hours I care to admit fixing the problems that I had. I had the free time to do it thou so that was fine. 

Was there a lightbulb moment, or just slow gradual improvement?

[b.mattay]

It's a battle that I'm still working on. To be honest, I'm convinced it is what I need to fix to start playing elite amateur golf. 

[ChaosTheory]

1 hour ago, TravAz said:

So 2nd part of my question - Did your scores go down?

That’s a great question.  Yes but it wasn’t easy to prove it was because of the swing change.   But overall, yes definitely.  What really improved were the mid irons and hybrids.  There are still days when I wonder if my short irons weren’t more accurate back when I was flipping.  But my scores got better.

[Zitlow]

49 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

It's a battle that I'm still working on. To be honest, I'm convinced it is what I need to fix to start playing elite amateur golf. 

 

What makes it a battle is that you're fighting against yourself, it doesn't help that instructors are teaching people to hammer square pegs into round holes. 

 

When I lived in Houston I took lessons from several driving range and club pros including Kevin Kirk and Butch. I found out later that I would have been better off doing the opposite of what they told me to do.