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The short game thing is a product of many modern courses, that are designed such that running shots up isn't much of an option. 

 

Green speeds may also play a part, there's a larger difference between the ball's reaction to fringe and the green.  <shrug>

 

I almost never putt through the fringe on my course, due to the latter.

 

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Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, 43.5", Phenom NL 60X -or- Cobra SpeedZone, ProtoPype 80S, 43.5"

Fwy woods: King LTD 3/4, RIP Beta 90X -or- TM Sim2 Ti 3w, NV105 X
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Have to take into account the number of GIR and the greens being played. I’ll “take” 34 putts on difficult and fast greens if I hit at least 15 greens. 
 

 

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I think it's the parents, who are obsessed with their kids getting scholarships.  Driving Distance is an obvious metric on how much potential your kid has.  Just like the 100 mph fastball. 

But, you need more than an arrow straight fastball to make it in MLB.  Much harder to sell pinpoint control and movement if you only throw 80.  Maybe impossible!

 

If I want to play faster I'll putt through the fringe with an alternate putting stroke that adds a lot of loft to my swing.

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As one of these "youngins" I'll try my best to form a response. 

 

I have always averaged 32-36 putts a round, but with that my scoring average has always been 70-75. Hitting 15 greens with a lot of two putt pars. Throw in one or two birdies with one or two birdies and you'll come out with a solid score. Another part that impacts putting is how quick and undulated the greens, especially at my home course are. Most of the time I will take a two putt and run outside of 12 feet. Unless I am directly under the hole I'm going to do my best to die it in the hole, which leads to a lot of two putts. 

 

I think the lob wedge observation is very accurate. Most of us young guys will pull our 60 or 58 degree from almost anywhere around the greens. I find that taking out ridges, slopes, or fringe is more advantageous than trying to navigate them. I feel like if I can take out the variables of the ground I have a better chance at getting it close by controlling the strike, height, and spin. I don't know if this has come from Phil (very possible) or because of other reasons (green speeds, current teaching styles, etc.). 

 

I have also seen a lot of us gravitate towards lower bounce options. Personally I need some bounce, but I can see the advantages of having the versatility to open the face from anywhere. The low stinging chip shot isn't one that I use much as I don't have the hands for it but some of the best short games I have played against commonly use this shot. One guy comes to mind that I played against in match play over the summer uses this shot whenever he can, his ability to control the skid and stop is incredible, more kick in birdies and pars than I have ever seen in my life. I get that the margin of error on this shot is incredibly small, but those that have mastered it are able to use it well to their advantage.

 

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Thanks for the feedback fellas.  Guys like @Foozle and @BIG STU realize my tongue is planted firmly in my cheek when I threw this topic out there.  I hope it gave each of you a few laughs and some insight into how a few of us old farts think.  I realize there is a time and a place for every type of shot and we all play under different conditions.  I really don't have much of an issue with it... other than that 34 putts a round thing.  We REALLY need to start working on that putting, gang!  😀

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I'll throw one more thing in here too.  I appreciate a good bump and run with a 6-7 iron as much as anyone but I realize with modern course conditions, you don't get an opportunity to hit that shot very often.  The one that bugs me the most is when I see someone 5-6 steps off the green... could be fairway or rough and they have 30 feet of green between the fringe and the hole.  The players I see playing on tv every weekend seem to do pretty well with flying it 10 feet and letting it roll the other 20.  And the ball never gets above head high on the pitch.  If players could handle this shot well, they'll have a lot more 1 putts, I think.

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3 hours ago, ShortGolfer said:

I think it's the parents, who are obsessed with their kids getting scholarships.  Driving Distance is an obvious metric on how much potential your kid has.  Just like the 100 mph fastball. 

But, you need more than an arrow straight fastball to make it in MLB.  Much harder to sell pinpoint control and movement if you only throw 80.  Maybe impossible!

 

If I want to play faster I'll putt through the fringe with an alternate putting stroke that adds a lot of loft to my swing.

UHU HUH You know how to pop hop a putter like I do. I forgot to add that little trick to my comment. I learned a lot of my short game stuff at a Trevino clinic when I was a kid. I also from time to time review Trevino and Seve short game videos on U-Tube. I learned I would say 90% of my short game tricks from the old hustlers playing the goat track courses in my area as a kid. That combined with Trevino and Seve I developed my own style and have never deivated from it. One thing people do not realize is you have to practice the overall style of whatever way they choose to execute things. Which for me short game practice is fun.

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1 hour ago, BIG STU said:

Lydia is a short game magician love to watch her play.

I was fortunate enough to have seen both play up close for many rounds.  While it is hard to verbalize a comparison between Seve and anyone, Lydia checks all the boxes with me.  I've heard her talk through a shot that all around her think is impossible, only to watch her perform it to perfection.  Seve was the only other that could do that time and time again.

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6 hours ago, ShortGolfer said:

I think it's the parents, who are obsessed with their kids getting scholarships.  Driving Distance is an obvious metric on how much potential your kid has.  Just like the 100 mph fastball. 

But, you need more than an arrow straight fastball to make it in MLB.  Much harder to sell pinpoint control and movement if you only throw 80.  Maybe impossible!

 

If I want to play faster I'll putt through the fringe with an alternate putting stroke that adds a lot of loft to my swing.

Analytics state that for amateurs the #1 way to reduce scores is strokes gained driving.  Putting is so far down the list it really doesn't matter.  #2 is strokes gained approach.  For Professionals the #1 thing that effects scores is strokes gained approach and #2 Strokes gained driving.

 

Does putting matter? Sure.  What matters more is proximity to the hole.  If I have a wedge in my proximity should be better than 7i.  If Wedge is putting from 20 ft., a person from 34 ft. will not beat me in the long run.  There is a reason the best putters statistically struggle to keep their cards.

 

Is 34 putts good?  Far from it.  There are far more important things.

 

 

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I am GenX.  If you really think I care about what you have to say, I don't.

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Idiot who uses a lob wedge for everything inside 80 yards checking in.

 

In the spirit of Mr Palmer I will, infact, putt when I can outside of the green - within reason.

 

 

Edited by third-times-a-charm
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2 hours ago, OnTheBag said:

I was fortunate enough to have seen both play up close for many rounds.  While it is hard to verbalize a comparison between Seve and anyone, Lydia checks all the boxes with me.  I've heard her talk through a shot that all around her think is impossible, only to watch her perform it to perfection.  Seve was the only other that could do that time and time again.

I went to a Trevino clinic once and got to see him play several times in person at the Old Kemper Open and the GGO. Never got to see Seve play in person.

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SW -- Cleveland 588 56* Shaft Unknown

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2 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

My old man ran a public daily fee course but it was only 9 holes so you had to have a starter. We had the rack you described and one other thing. The rack was for folks starting off and we had an old shaft stuck in the ground for people on the turn. The rule was one new group and then a turn group. Our regular weekend golfers lined up early so to speak and were first off. We stayed crowded on wekends and holidays because at the time golf was booming and there were not many public daily fee courses in our area. My old man used to work the tee then when I turned 14 or so it was my job after I pulled all the carts out early. I had a somewhat comfortable chair and an umbrella plus had a genuine aluminum Budweiser cooler sans the bud.

Yeah we played the same games you did as a kid and as an adult with call the shot or screw your buddy. If I am not playing a Shootout I play the ball down even now. At my old club I used to have my starter buds give me a lie since the starter shack sat right beside the small putting green. LOL some of those guys could be sadistic at times all in fun. Sometimes I have had guys ask me what club I use as they have seen me hit shots from the same place with different clubs. I tell them it is just what I feel comfortable with that day on that shot and I practice like I do to keep all my options open. 

Love this!  And we did the same type of things growing up.  Quick question... when was the last time you went to a golf course and saw young players doing ANYTHING like this nowadays?

 

Our putting game growing up was called "7up".  Everyone putts... closest to the hole gets a point... hole it and you get 2 points.  If you 3 putt it, it's minus 2 points.  Closest to the hole picks the next putt.  First guy to +7 wins or first guy to -7 loses.  Winner collects a dime a point from everyone else.... or in the case of a minus 7 to end the game, that guy owes everyone a dime a point.

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1 hour ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Idiot who uses a lob wedge for everything inside 80 yards checking in.

 

In the spirit of Mr Palmer I will, infact, putt when I can outside of the green - within reason.

 

 

You got that right any time I can get that putter in my hands I will do so as you said within reason and if the shot dictates it. 

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7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

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Irons 4 thru PW 1985 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex #2 shafts

SW -- Cleveland 588 56* Shaft Unknown

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Putter -- Cleveland Designed By 8802 style

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2 minutes ago, Bigarch said:

Love this!  And we did the same type of things growing up.  Quick question... when was the last time you went to a golf course and saw young players doing ANYTHING like this nowadays?

 

Our putting game growing up was called "7up".  Everyone putts... closest to the hole gets a point... hole it and you get 2 points.  If you 3 putt it, it's minus 2 points.  Closest to the hole picks the next putt.  First guy to +7 wins or first guy to -7 loses.  Winner collects a dime a point from everyone else.... or in the case of a minus 7 to end the game, that guy owes everyone a dime a point.

Our course due to the demographics of the area and the course we do not have any youngins around much. The owners sons do practice every now and then but they mostly hang out at the course they live on and are members at which is a more upscale course.

At my old course we always had something going between some of us and the staff. LOL one afternoon we got to doing the 10 point thing which was the same thing as your 7 up with both chipping and putting involved for $1 a point. It got dark and we had my pick up pulled up the alley with the lights and fog lights on and the range picker with the lights on the other side. It was summer and it got to be around 10:00 at night. My wife which is unusual for her came looking for me she got out looked waved and shook her head and went home. I think I won about $20 that night. 

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7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 4 thru PW 1985 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex #2 shafts

SW -- Cleveland 588 56* Shaft Unknown

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24 minutes ago, Bigarch said:

Quick question... when was the last time you went to a golf course and saw young players doing ANYTHING like this nowadays?

 

I've seen junior golfers at my course playing putting games on the green.  And it sounds like there's a bit of money on the line, based on what I overhear them saying (they talk a bit loud, LOL).

 

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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, 43.5", Phenom NL 60X -or- Cobra SpeedZone, ProtoPype 80S, 43.5"

Fwy woods: King LTD 3/4, RIP Beta 90X -or- TM Sim2 Ti 3w, NV105 X
Hybrid:  Cobra King Tec 2h, MMT 80 S 

Irons grab bag:  1-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 1-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R; 2-PW Golden Ram Vibration Matched, NS Pro 950WF S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Cobra Snakebite 56* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S -or- Ram TW282 SW -or- Ram TW276 SW
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Balls: Chrome Soft, Kirkland Signature 3pc (v3)

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Talking about bounce....

 

Being a Ram guy, of course I wallowed in the Troon Grind wedges for a while.  Was pretty good with them in the sand, too.  But eventually, started playing with more bounce.

 

And, love it.  Was using a 14* bounce on a 58* for quite a while, playing a PM Grind at the moment, which isn't low. 

 

Also play some of the Maltby wedges from time to time; they'll have lower bounce angles, but with the wider soles, there's more bounce in play than the spec indicates. 

 

Bounce is my friend.

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, 43.5", Phenom NL 60X -or- Cobra SpeedZone, ProtoPype 80S, 43.5"

Fwy woods: King LTD 3/4, RIP Beta 90X -or- TM Sim2 Ti 3w, NV105 X
Hybrid:  Cobra King Tec 2h, MMT 80 S 

Irons grab bag:  1-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 1-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R; 2-PW Golden Ram Vibration Matched, NS Pro 950WF S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Cobra Snakebite 56* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S -or- Ram TW282 SW -or- Ram TW276 SW
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34" -or- Rife Bimini, 34" -or- Maxfli TM-2, 35"
Balls: Chrome Soft, Kirkland Signature 3pc (v3)

Grip preference: various GripMaster leather options, Best Grips Microperfs, or Star Grip Sidewinders of assorted colors

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3 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

Talking about bounce....

 

Being a Ram guy, of course I wallowed in the Troon Grind wedges for a while.  Was pretty good with them in the sand, too.  But eventually, started playing with more bounce.

 

And, love it.  Was using a 14* bounce on a 58* for quite a while, playing a PM Grind at the moment, which isn't low. 

 

Also play some of the Maltby wedges from time to time; they'll have lower bounce angles, but with the wider soles, there's more bounce in play than the spec indicates. 

 

Bounce is my friend.

 

I'm totally with you on this one.  I think I've gotten sucked in by the low-bounce craze the last several years.  My home course has a lot of tight lies around the greens with closely clipped bermuda grass chipping areas around many of the greens.  And so my wedges reflected that with less and less bounce.  But when I went back to some of the parkland courses like what I grew up on in the St. Louis area, my short game stunk.  Hit a lot of weak pitches high on the clubface around the greens from the thicker bluegrass and fescue surrounds and just couldn't hit those shots anymore.

 

Fast forward to last year when my home course started redoing bunkers with heavier fluffy sand and I was really struggling playing out of the new bunkers.  I dug an old Wilson Dynapower out of my stash with nice bounce on it and all of the sudden my problem was solved and I also now had a wedge that performed better from thicker grass lies. So that's convinced me that your wedges need to be different.... not only in loft obviously, but you need a low bounce option and a higher bounce option.  Course conditions and the quality of the lie dictate which wedge I use.  So my 50 degree gap has low bounce, the 54 degree is higher bounce and my 58 is in between in terms of bounce.

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2 hours ago, Bigarch said:

...So that's convinced me that your wedges need to be different.... not only in loft obviously, but you need a low bounce option and a higher bounce option.  Course conditions and the quality of the lie dictate which wedge I use.  

 

This. 

It's just tougher for me to chip from the thin lies, trapping the ball when I feel like it'll work, or clipping it most often, which is what I think Big Stu was relating, like chipping off of wood or one of those plastic mats they have at some driving ranges.

Edited by Thinset
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2 hours ago, Thinset said:

 

This. 

It's just tougher for me to chip from the thin lies, trapping the ball when I feel like it'll work, or clipping it most often, which is what I think Big Stu was relating, like chipping off of wood or one of those plastic mats they have at some driving ranges.

You got it I trap the ball by design because it was how I was taught. One of the reasons I still hit low bounce razor thin leading edge blades. The Vokeys in my signature are a touch of genius from Mr Vokey. Those F grind soles are low bounce by design but open them up and they will bounce. 

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      Alejandro Tosti - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Davis Riley - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      MJ Daffue - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Nate Lashley - WITB - 2024 Zurich Classic
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      MJ Daffue's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Cameron putters - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Swag covers ( a few custom for Nick Hardy) - 2024 Zurich Classic
      Custom Bettinardi covers for Matt and Alex Fitzpatrick - 2024 Zurich Classic
       
       
       
      • 1 reply
    • 2024 RBC Heritage - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 RBC Heritage - Monday #1
      2024 RBC Heritage - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2024 RBC Heritage
      Justin Rose - WITB - 2024 RBC Heritage
      Chandler Phillips - WITB - 2024 RBC Heritage
      Nick Dunlap - WITB - 2024 RBC Heritage
      Thomas Detry - WITB - 2024 RBC Heritage
      Austin Eckroat - WITB - 2024 RBC Heritage
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Wyndham Clark's Odyssey putter - 2024 RBC Heritage
      JT's new Cameron putter - 2024 RBC Heritage
      Justin Thomas testing new Titleist 2 wood - 2024 RBC Heritage
      Cameron putters - 2024 RBC Heritage
      Odyssey putter with triple track alignment aid - 2024 RBC Heritage
      Scotty Cameron The Blk Box putting alignment aid/training aid - 2024 RBC Heritage
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 7 replies

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