GUR not marked

[CasualLie]

Anyone know the actual USGA decision (or rule) where you can take relief under abnormal course conditions for GUR not marked?

 

 Situation is course was cutting some trees and left a mess wood shavings and dirt near another tree.  Ball came to rest near other tree but clearly affected by the fresh holes/dirt piles/shavings.

[davep043]

1 minute ago, CasualLie said:

Anyone know the actual USGA decision (or rule) where you can take relief under abnormal course conditions for GUR not marked?

 

 Situation is course was cutting some trees and left a mess wood shavings and dirt near another tree.  Ball came to rest near other tree but clearly affected by the fresh holes/dirt piles/shavings.

The official USGA/R&A position is contained in the Definition of Ground Under Repair in the Rules, easily found online or on your phone app.  In your case, material like that piled for later removal is GUR, whether marked or not.  But if not intended to be removed, they're not GUR unless defined by the Committee.  Do you know what the intention was?

[sui generis]

2 hours ago, CasualLie said:

Anyone know the actual USGA decision (or rule) where you can take relief under abnormal course conditions for GUR not marked?

 

 Situation is course was cutting some trees and left a mess wood shavings and dirt near another tree.  Ball came to rest near other tree but clearly affected by the fresh holes/dirt piles/shavings.

 

Your question is a good one and happens frequently. DaveP's answer is spot on.

 

However, often a player cannot really decide if the mess was really "piled for later removal."

 

So, what is the player to do? Well, the Rules have thought of that and gives them clear guidance in Rule 20.1.

 

First, match play or stroke play? Decide that and look here: 

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

[antip]

I support the thoughts above that it sometimes can be difficult to know if something is piled for removal or just piled. That said, I've never seen a pile of wood shavings/mulch on the course that was intended to be part of the challenge of playing the course - ie, they get moved/spread subsequently. Ditto for piles of dirt - they get moved/spread subsequently except in the rare occasion when some course restructuring is going on and ground is being shaped for subsequent seeding/planting. Piled grass clippings may be a different issue, some courses pile them around the base of trees with no intention for subsequent movement. But if you are in an event where you are being careful to meet the rules (not a social/practice bash), in stroke play you can play two balls and get the Committee/pro (depending who is running the event) to decide - and snapping a photo of the pile would assist.

[CasualLie]

3 hours ago, davep043 said:

The official USGA/R&A position is contained in the Definition of Ground Under Repair in the Rules, easily found online or on your phone app.  In your case, material like that piled for later removal is GUR, whether marked or not.  But if not intended to be removed, they're not GUR unless defined by the Committee.  Do you know what the intention was?

 

 

Thanks.  Although not so easily found, but I did eventually figure out where to click to get the definition of GUR and see it does not have to be marked.  As far as I was concerned the area was intended to be cleaned up.  They just cut the tree last week and left a mess.  It's a well conditioned course so no way they would just leave dirt / shavings all over and the ground full of holes.

 

I was trying to find the "black/white" ruling for my obtuse competitor today who was trying to tell me it had to be marked.  The guy was making a big deal of my drop and I told him it's really not my problem if you do not know the rules.  Take it up with the "committee".

 

It's been a long time since I've used the USGA app, so it took me a bit to navigate it.  I liked the version from years ago, much easier to look things up.

Edited October 12, 2022 by CasualLie

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, CasualLie said:

It's been a long time since I've used the USGA app, so it took me a bit to navigate it.  I liked the version from years ago, much easier to look things up.

 

Have not seen the USGA app but R&A app has a search function. Doesn't get much easier than that.

[Newby]

5 hours ago, CasualLie said:

It's been a long time since I've used the USGA app, so it took me a bit to navigate it.  I liked the version from years ago, much easier to look things up.

Try this as an alternative

 

https://www.randa.org/rog/the-rules-of-golf

[davep043]

11 hours ago, CasualLie said:

It's been a long time since I've used the USGA app, so it took me a bit to navigate it.  I liked the version from years ago, much easier to look things up.

The one thing that messes with most people with the USGA app is that the default is for Expert Mode to be turned off.  In order to access the full text of the Rules, as well as the Interpretations, you have to go to Settings and activate Expert Mode.  On the other hand, Defined Terms are all shown in bold italics, and a quick click on those terms takes you directly to the definition.  The USGA also has a search function that works reasonable well.

[Schulzmc]

43 minutes ago, davep043 said:

The one thing that messes with most people with the USGA app is that the default is for Expert Mode to be turned off.  In order to access the full text of the Rules, as well as the Interpretations, you have to go to Settings and activate Expert Mode.  On the other hand, Defined Terms are all shown in bold italics, and a quick click on those terms takes you directly to the definition.  The USGA also has a search function that works reasonable well.

THANK YOU!!!! I always had to default to the website and not the app. Expert mode is now on!

[nsxguy]

Rather than start a new topic on the same thing,,,,,,,,

 

Had a question come up yesterday about GUR. Group of 36 players playing stroke play. A weekly game and a public course that generally doesn't mark very much vis-a-vis penalty areas, GUR, etc.

 

Tire tracks(?) and such - Apparently a player's ball was in an area of soft(er) turf when somebody had either dug something up, rolled over the area with a cart, and/or the area was just generally "chewed up".

 

The discussion was such that a group/4-some should be able to "declare" such an area as GUR and proceed accordingly.

 

Within the definition of Ground Under Repair, it says "

 

Ground under repair also includes the following things, even if the Committee does not define them as such:

 

    Any hole made by the Committee or the maintenance staff in:

 

        Setting up the course (such as a hole where a stake has been removed or the hole on a double green being used for the play of another hole), or

 

        Maintaining the course (such as a hole made in removing turf or a tree stump or laying pipelines, but not including aeration holes).

 

I wasn't there and I actually forget what the 4-some actually DID, but I was of the opinion that a group cannot make its own GUR and if the area wasn't marked one simply had to play on.

 

So I guess the question is, can the "committee" declare that a group CAN make its own judgement and act accordingly in questionable situations such as this ?

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by nsxguy

[davep043]

17 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

So I guess the question is, can the "committee" declare that a group CAN make its own judgement and act accordingly in questionable situations such as this ?

No.  The problem I see is that one group may decide to allow relief from this area, another group might make the opposite decision.  You mention 36 players, 9 different groups, you just won't get any uniformity between all those groups, so it will be unfair to someone. 

If you look to the Interpretations (or Clarifications in 2023 Rules) you'll see that tractor ruts aren't necessarily GUR unless specifically defined by the Committee.  When is a rut bad enough to be GUR?  If you ask 9 different players, you're likely to get 9 different answers.

[sui generis]

44 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

So I guess the question is, can the "committee" declare that a group CAN make its own judgement and act accordingly in questionable situations such as this ?

 

Certainly not. 

 

See R20.1c for what is expected of the player:

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

Edited December 14, 2022 by sui generis

[jobin]

I never carry the phone onto the golf course. And i support all those who choose likewise.  

One fellow had a custom ringtone: 'loud barking Doberman dog'.  Imagine how you would feel as you drew back your driver and heard that  cruel growl just behind you.

 

Phones generally delay the game...a BIG no-no.  Leave it in the car, do everyone a favor.

[sui generis]

36 minutes ago, jobin said:

I never carry the phone onto the golf course.

 

You had better be very good at R20.1 then. As of 2023, there will be no handy little Player's Guide. Access to the Rules through the R&A/USGA app is about your only good option.

[Augster]

In a group of 36? Only if a guy in the group in question is the “committee”. 
 

If it’s just a fourball, go ahead and decide what you’d like to do as a group. 
 

In the group of 36, one should play 2 balls and ask later. A LOT of the time, both scores are the same. 

[nsxguy]

FWIW, one of the guys involved was telling me about it and insisting that within "Abnormal Conditions" was enough info for them to make the decision.

 

I told him that in this specific case it was not up to him or his group to decide. If the course didn't make it GUR the player had to just play it.

 

He disagreed and told me under "Abnormal Conditions" they were allowed to decide whether or not it was an abnormal condition. That's what got me to looking at the Rules, and this thread.

 

While he and I were discussing, too loudly I guess, the Pro running the comp asked what was going on and he/we explained. I expect the Pro will come up with something for next week.

[davep043]

14 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

I expect the Pro will come up with something for next week

Please let us know what the Pro decides.  

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Please let us know what the Pro decides.  

 

Will do, but keep in mind this is a very informal, "friendly" game and the Pro mostly wants to keep the peace - he's not all that invested in the Rules.