Maintenance of Hickory Shafts

[Wham49]

1 hour ago, bcstones said:

I wonder if Titebond might be better than Elmers....Woodcraft has some kind of "glue/adhesive" that is extremely strong, it might be some kind of CA glue. They have a CA - Mercury Adesive Thin Flex CA glue with the following qualities: "Flex Thin is excellent for wicking into wood to stabilize it. It is formulated to bond a wide variety of materials, including but not limited to wood, paper, cardboard, leather, metals and plastics. Additionally, Flex was designed specifically to be highly resistant to chipping and cracking from impacts, vibrations, thermal shock, temperature cycling and high humidity." Could it be that it'd a good glue for hickory shafts? 

sounds perfect

[bcstones]

10 minutes ago, Wham49 said:

sounds perfect

gotta call back tomorrow to Woodcraft, to talk to a guy who's most familar w/glues...

[Nickc]

One thing about gluing - many seem to advocate roughing up the surface ( e.g wood) before applying the glue, however most glues adhere smooth surfaces together  better - it is the way glues afaik are designed to work.

[Nickc]

2 hours ago, bcstones said:

I wonder if Titebond might be better

I thought Titebond was for wood to wood only and not wood to metal or am I mistaken - perhaps need to read the instruction label again!

Edit: Titebond polyurethane can be used for metal

Edited October 25, 2022 by Nickc

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

Please consider and bear in mind that Bob Kuntz's book was published in 1990. The ascendancy of competitive hickory golf came a decade after. The use of epoxy came about through another 2 decades of practical experience of the stresses placed on old hickories in the course of competitive play.

The SoHG hadn't been formed and the emphasis pre 1990 was collecting old hickories and there preservation.

For example, most golfers thinking of epoxy relate to shaft fixing, 2 part epoxies now commonly available. They do not work well for structural rebuilding of club heads and wooden shafts.

I started using West System epoxy, boatbuilding stuff, specifically design for wood and to penetrate wood fibres, thin runny stuff which you can stiffen with floculated silica gel or weight up your club with lead/tungsten powder. That was back in 1995. 

Those principles hold good today.

Edited October 26, 2022 by The Aspidistra in the Hall
More info.

[Wham49]

7 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Please consider and bear in mind that Bob Kuntz's book was published in 1990. The ascendancy of competitive hickory golf came a decade after. The use of epoxy came about through another 2 decades of practical experience of the stresses placed on old hickories in the course of competitive play.

The SoHG hadn't been formed and the emphasis pre 1990 was collecting old hickories and there preservation.

For example, most golfers thinking of epoxy relate to shaft fixing, 2 part epoxies now commonly available. They do not work well for structural rebuilding of club heads and wooden shafts.

I started using West System epoxy, boatbuilding stuff, specifically design for wood and to penetrate wood fibres, thin runny stuff which you can stiffen with floculated silica gel or weight up your club with lead/tungsten powder. That was back in 1995. 

Those principles hold good today.

so your saying modern golf epoxy is no good, your advocating for the use of the boat stuff or other wood glue epoxy. Is it readily available. That is why I was asking about the modern usage, cause it did not seem that the elmers thing would hold up to play, and was not sure about the modern epoxy becasue of the wood

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

1 hour ago, Wham49 said:

so your saying modern golf epoxy is no good, your advocating for the use of the boat stuff or other wood glue epoxy. Is it readily available. That is why I was asking about the modern usage, cause it did not seem that the elmers thing would hold up to play, and was not sure about the modern epoxy becasue of the wood

Yes, for our particular purposes the standard 2 part epoxy used for cementing golf shafts to heads is not adequate.

You can easily find West System Epoxy online along with descriptions of it's merits. Thing is, this and I guess similar systems are so versatile and endorsed by Lloyds insurance for boat building purposes.....should be strong enough for us, wouldn't you think? Commonly currently available golf 2 part epoxies are fast cure, (you need slow cure for strength,) and also their heat resistance allows them to be degraded with boiling water. Not that that's bad but it suggests to me that the durabiity isn't all I might want when rebuilding hickory clubs for the rigours of play.

Note: the product which I use currently is Petram Epoxy Systems, I have no idea if it is available Stateside, West System is an American product, Petram is less expensive.

Edited October 26, 2022 by The Aspidistra in the Hall
More info.

[Nickc]

The West system and Petram look a bit complicated to use (and quite expensive unless you have a lot of gluing to do).

FWIW just did a quick search on glues for metal to wood and Gorilla  original glue was deemed better than 2 part epoxy! This is a polyurethane glue so Titebond polyurethane should be similar plus has a long curing time compared to epoxy.

Thoughts?

Edited October 27, 2022 by Nickc

[bcstones]

5 hours ago, Nickc said:

The West system and Petram look a bit complicated to use (and quite expensive unless you have a lot of gluing to do).

FWIW just did a quick search on glues for metal to wood and Gorilla  original glue was deemed better than 2 part epoxy! This is a polyurethane glue so Titebond polyurethane should be similar plus has a long curing time compared to epoxy.

Thoughts?

Seems that Gorilla glue is a polyurethane glue, while Titebond III is a resin glue...In a my experience w/Gorilla glue is to throw it away...I used it to glue a fragile device outside - it didn't make it thru a summer of South Central Texas heat before it gave way & the device was shattered beyond repair (despite Gorilla claims of being all weather), here's a quote from the Rockler site:

"...Woodworking forums are a great source for information on woodworkers' actual experience using various glues. This discussion of the merits of two popular waterproof glues, for example, contains this no-nonsense comparison of Gorilla Glue and Titebond III:

- Gorilla Glue is a polyurethane glue and Titebond III is an aliphatic resin glue.

- Gorilla glue will adhere to more substances but Titebond III gives a better wood to wood bond.

- Gorilla Glue cannot be washed off your hands...it must wear away while Titebond III cleans up with water.

- Gorilla Glue foams excessively upon curing. The foam is gap filling but has no strength

- Titebond III does not foam & any excess can be wiped off with a damp cloth or sponge.

- Unless you need to fill a gap, Titebond III is the better choice. It's easier to work with especially on wood to wood gluing. 

- If you're simply filling a gap with no strength required, use Gorilla Glue. If the gap filled portion will be stressed, use Epoxy..."

 

That said, what is sooo "wrong" or "difficult" using a 2part expoxy...on post hickory clubs? I'd guess that the glue used in the hickory era would have been some kind of hide glue...which is still available at places like Woodcraft. I've used the West Marine epoxy & fiberglass method on my canoe & wood kayak paddles...hmmmm, wonder what the SOHG would say about using it on hickory clubs in one of their outings?

 

 

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

3 hours ago, bcstones said:

Seems that Gorilla glue is a polyurethane glue, while Titebond III is a resin glue...In a my experience w/Gorilla glue is to throw it away...I used it to glue a fragile device outside - it didn't make it thru a summer of South Central Texas heat before it gave way & the device was shattered beyond repair (despite Gorilla claims of being all weather), here's a quote from the Rockler site:

"...Woodworking forums are a great source for information on woodworkers' actual experience using various glues. This discussion of the merits of two popular waterproof glues, for example, contains this no-nonsense comparison of Gorilla Glue and Titebond III:

- Gorilla Glue is a polyurethane glue and Titebond III is an aliphatic resin glue.

- Gorilla glue will adhere to more substances but Titebond III gives a better wood to wood bond.

- Gorilla Glue cannot be washed off your hands...it must wear away while Titebond III cleans up with water.

- Gorilla Glue foams excessively upon curing. The foam is gap filling but has no strength

- Titebond III does not foam & any excess can be wiped off with a damp cloth or sponge.

- Unless you need to fill a gap, Titebond III is the better choice. It's easier to work with especially on wood to wood gluing. 

- If you're simply filling a gap with no strength required, use Gorilla Glue. If the gap filled portion will be stressed, use Epoxy..."

 

That said, what is sooo "wrong" or "difficult" using a 2part expoxy...on post hickory clubs? I'd guess that the glue used in the hickory era would have been some kind of hide glue...which is still available at places like Woodcraft. I've used the West Marine epoxy & fiberglass method on my canoe & wood kayak paddles...hmmmm, wonder what the SOHG would say about using it on hickory clubs in one of their outings?

 

 

It's been done many,many times..by me for eg. All perfectly acceptable and legal. I was a very early member of SoHG back in 2000 or so.

Gorilla glue is good stuff actually. I've just used it to glue the soles back on my Footjoy ( no longer waterproof) golf shoes. Best use for it imo.

Edited October 27, 2022 by The Aspidistra in the Hall

[Nickc]

BTW Was referring to Titebond polyurethane glue NOT Titebond III (which is for wood to wood only).

E.g of supplier

https://www.hobbies.co.uk/titebond-polyurethane-glue-high-strength-waterproof-liquid-glue

 

However, not sure but think I read it does expand a little.

For wood to wood Titebond III will give a slightly stronger bond (think the test was done by Titebond themselves).

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Nickc

[kingsallday]

A little confused on the problems associated with using 2 part epoxy on a hickory golf head. It seems like all the players in my area use a 2 part epoxy without any problems. They make a longer cure golf epoxy that I have used after asking what players in my area use, and it's not crazy expensive. This is what I use: https://www.amazon.com/Brampton-Pro-Fix-Long-Adhesive-Epoxy/dp/B00H54BGPM

The reproduction clubs made by Tad Moore and Louisville use epoxy in their heads, and checking the old thread Tad recommends using a 2 part epoxy to attach the heads. Not sure when I will have to encounter boiling water during play, so unsure why this would impact it's practical use for hickory golf.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

1 hour ago, kingsallday said:

A little confused on the problems associated with using 2 part epoxy on a hickory golf head. It seems like all the players in my area use a 2 part epoxy without any problems. They make a longer cure golf epoxy that I have used after asking what players in my area use, and it's not crazy expensive. This is what I use: https://www.amazon.com/Brampton-Pro-Fix-Long-Adhesive-Epoxy/dp/B00H54BGPM

The reproduction clubs made by Tad Moore and Louisville use epoxy in their heads, and checking the old thread Tad recommends using a 2 part epoxy to attach the heads. Not sure when I will have to encounter boiling water during play, so unsure why this would impact it's practical use for hickory golf.

If you have the misfortune to break a shaft and you have to remove it (using the plastic bag/boiling water technique) a thermolabile epoxy is great. However if the rest of the head is held together with this stuff it's not so cracky. You will want an epoxy which isn't thermolabile, hence something like a Lloyds approved epoxy like West System.

Edited October 27, 2022 by The Aspidistra in the Hall

[kingsallday]

On 10/27/2022 at 2:23 PM, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

If you have the misfortune to break a shaft and you have to remove it (using the plastic bag/boiling water technique) a thermolabile epoxy is great. However if the rest of the head is held together with this stuff it's not so cracky. You will want an epoxy which isn't thermolabile, hence something like a Lloyds approved epoxy like West System.

What west system epoxy do you use? Comparing the products on west systems website to the brampton long cure epoxy it shows that the brampton has a Tg of 82C (179.6F) while the west systems epoxy vary from 116-154F. Unless my understanding of Tg is wrong this data seems to say that the Brampton long cure softens at a much higher temp than the west systems, with Brampton stating that it has full effectiveness between -50 to 180F. Please correct me if I am wrong with this if you have expertise in this area.

 

Looking at various epoxies, I am really confused as to what you see as a thermolabile epoxy, because in my understanding of the issue I cannot see a time where the working temp of -50-180F will not be strong enough,

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

13 hours ago, kingsallday said:

What west system epoxy do you use? Comparing the products on west systems website to the brampton long cure epoxy it shows that the brampton has a Tg of 82C (179.6F) while the west systems epoxy vary from 116-154F. Unless my understanding of Tg is wrong this data seems to say that the Brampton long cure softens at a much higher temp than the west systems, with Brampton stating that it has full effectiveness between -50 to 180F. Please correct me if I am wrong with this if you have expertise in this area.

 

Looking at various epoxies, I am really confused as to what you see as a thermolabile epoxy, because in my understanding of the issue I cannot see a time where the working temp of -50-180F will not be strong enough,

Possibly you are looking at it from the standard viewpoint of using it to fix shafts. I use it for structural work on heads, mixed with lead powder, flocculated silica gel eg, all for holding hedas together which may have split or otherwise denatured. Should I want to remove a shaft which is secured with epoxy withing the ranges you describe then the whole shooting match risks disintegrating.

I'm away from home for a couple of weeks so I can't go into specifics. Will speak later.

 

[Wham49]

I'm confused about everything after this thread,

 

more lost as to what is a good epoxy/glue to attach shaft to head. Seems to be a pretty complicated question.

[kingsallday]

11 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Possibly you are looking at it from the standard viewpoint of using it to fix shafts. I use it for structural work on heads, mixed with lead powder, flocculated silica gel eg, all for holding hedas together which may have split or otherwise denatured. Should I want to remove a shaft which is secured with epoxy withing the ranges you describe then the whole shooting match risks disintegrating.

I'm away from home for a couple of weeks so I can't go into specifics. Will speak later.

 

I am specifically talking about the process to connect a wood shaft to an iron head, in which I believe the normal long cure golf epoxy being adequate for getting clubs ready to play. To fix a shaft I personally use CA glue(superglue) paired with zipties to keep pressure on the gluing area, but I have also seen people use standard Titebond III wood glue. After fixing the shaft, I also whip the whole area for more strength. 

For wood heads my only knowledge of fixing cracked heads comes from the John Henry Williams podcast episode of the Plus Four Podcast, where he does speak about using a very low viscosity epoxy with a vacuum pot to get all the epoxy into the cracks. 

I have never heard of the boiling water method of removing a shaft you previously mentioned, everyone I know uses a heat gun to slowly heat up a club at the hosel to loosen the epoxy enough where the shaft can be removed. I feel like the head's structural integrity would not be at risk with this method.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

12 hours ago, kingsallday said:

I am specifically talking about the process to connect a wood shaft to an iron head, in which I believe the normal long cure golf epoxy being adequate for getting clubs ready to play. To fix a shaft I personally use CA glue(superglue) paired with zipties to keep pressure on the gluing area, but I have also seen people use standard Titebond III wood glue. After fixing the shaft, I also whip the whole area for more strength. 

For wood heads my only knowledge of fixing cracked heads comes from the John Henry Williams podcast episode of the Plus Four Podcast, where he does speak about using a very low viscosity epoxy with a vacuum pot to get all the epoxy into the cracks. 

I have never heard of the boiling water method of removing a shaft you previously mentioned, everyone I know uses a heat gun to slowly heat up a club at the hosel to loosen the epoxy enough where the shaft can be removed. I feel like the head's structural integrity would not be at risk with this method.

The 'boil in the bag' method is standard practice for remove hickory heads from shafts, has been for a long time. Hot air guns run the risk of scorching the timber and may be done only by the very experienced. For the BiB method standard golf shop epoxy is fine, never said otherwise. Just don't use it for structural repairs.

I don't know who JHW is, sorry, his fame hasn't reached the UK.

[Swingingk]

I don't have any hickory-specific knowledge as of yet but I do have fairly extensive experience with West Sysem epoxy and can attest to their quality and performance.  There is nothing particularly complex about the product other than there are three different hardeners available which determine curing speed.  All very nice stuff.

 

One thing worth mentioning is that when bonding wood to wood, West System recommends pre-soaking the bonding surfaces with epoxy, allowing it to partially cure, then reapplying epoxy to make the final bond.  This is because the product is thin enough that without a pre-soak the epoxy will migrate into the wood leaving too little at the joint site to make a solid bond.  I don't know if I'm doing a very good job of explaining the issue but basically wood to wood epoxy bonds of any kind will benefit from pre-epoxying the bonding surfaces to ensure the joint site has adequate adhesive to get the job done right.  It might be a bit excessive but if you plan on insuring your clubs through Lloyd's of London you're going to want to follow the manufacturers recommendations.  😁

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

Great stuff for boat building which is where I first used it.