Swing changes for fused neck & backs

[golftech]

I’d like to start a thread for those with lumbar or cervical spine fusion. I’m about to have a 2 level cervical spine fusion and wonder the types of swing changes others made afterwards.  I’ve always tried to distribute stress across my back with spine bends balanced at setup across lumbar, thoracic and cervical spine.  While I was taught that years ago, it’s nice seeing Gankas and others teaching this setup posture now and not an ultra straight back anymore.  Beside setup posture, what mechanical swings changes have others made.  Plus, any teachers out there experienced with fused students? While parts of Ballard’s common denominators make sense, Knudson ‘headless’ swinging motion looks like it adds rotational aspects but still limits back stress, both lumbar and cervical.  Plus his upright finish should be better on my fused neck.  I’d like to hear from others about this.  Thanks,

 

[ChaosTheory]

Paging @E2EGOLFER53

[wingz9]

I have two artificial discs in my neck and I would say the number one thing I work on is taking the “hit” out of my swing. I wish I had done this my entire life of golfing. By hit I mean mentally trying to smash it which then results in the upper body and arms tensing up and usually an over the top pull or chunk with poor contact. If I simply focus on lower body driving the swing and keeping my upper body loose and let it go for the ride I play much better golf, hit it straighter, and farther, and the the ultimate bonus is my traps and neck don’t get sore. In fact sometimes the golf actually helps with whatever muscle tension is there if I swing correctly. The times I try to kill it I will then start to feel tension that I don’t want which is uncomfortable.

 

I also walk a lot, do regular stretching, and all my PT exercises pretty regularly so there is also a maintenance program involved to make sure I’m healthy and strong enough to play. I can’t say I follow one teacher or swing philosophy, I pretty much have the same swing I’ve had since I was a kid I just try to focus on the least effort for an efficient swing. I hope this helps.

[ChaosTheory]

On 10/25/2022 at 10:25 PM, wingz9 said:

I would say the number one thing I work on is taking the “hit” out of my swing. I wish I had done this my entire life of golfing.

Yes!

And heck, the smooth swing hits better anyway.

[E2EGOLFER53]

I have 11 of the bodies 24 vertebra fused, five in my lower back from S1 to L3 and six in my neck from T1 to C3 I also have a fused left Sacroiliac and have had my left hip replaced twice so I am very familiar with discovering new ways to swing a golf club due to fusions.  The first thing you absolutely must learn to do is move the club without doing much twisting.  I accomplish the no twist backswing by bending my left elbow to make the backswing instead of turning my shoulders.  I do setup with my shoulders closed so that serves as a sort of pre turn.  The downswing is simply a straightening out of the arms to the ball and the follow through is just whatever you can do to avoid any stress on your body.  The follow through does not mean anything as what you do after the ball is gone has no effect on the flight of the ball, you could fall down if you wanted to after impact and the flight of the ball would be the same.

 

Here is what my swing looked like a while back http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PNjwgxlacc

https://youtube.com/shorts/KddtAa1RVoA

 

Stan

[Thinset]

On 10/25/2022 at 7:48 PM, golftech said:

I’m about to have a 2 level cervical spine fusion and wonder the types of swing changes others made afterwards... Beside setup posture, what mechanical swings changes have others made... upright finish should be better on my fused neck.  I’d like to hear from others about this.  Thanks,

 

Standard setup at address, don't drop the back foot back.  

You can stand "almost" straight up, just bend forward a little and bend your knees a little, just so you maintain decent balance.

Take the club straight back and up, no turn on the backswing (Jim Furyk-style?).  

Your arms start down first, then, to open your hips, 

you pivot on BOTH feet to clear your hips to the point that your belt buckle points to the target.  Your whole body will be facing the target when you're finished.  

You just adjust the timing of your pivot so that you are able to see your contact with the ball from your right eye (for a righty).  

Upright finish for sure, as you note in your opening post, 

but you should find that your weight is shifting back onto your back foot at the top of your follow-through.  This shift back onto the back foot on the follow-through will take the place of an "unencumbered" golfer's arching the back on the follow-through.  That said, your finishing form will look great, and there won't be any twisting from the waist up.    

It might take 8-10 rounds to work this out.  

It could cost you 20- 30 yards per club, but it beats the heck out of just wishing you could play, or forcing the issue by "picking the scab".  

You'll leave some marks on the tee box, fairway, etc from the pivot on weighted front foot, but they'll be less destructive, even wearing cleated shoes, than the divots created by the people slamming their clubs into the ground behind the ball.  

Meantime, and maybe forever, stay off the driving range (i.e., don't pick the scab).  

Good luck.  

Edited October 31, 2022 by Thinset

[Tanner25]

5 hours ago, E2EGOLFER53 said:

I have 11 of the bodies 24 vertebra fused, five in my lower back from S1 to L3 and six in my neck from T1 to C3 I also have a fused left Sacroiliac and have had my left hip replaced twice so I am very familiar with discovering new ways to swing a golf club due to fusions.  The first thing you absolutely must learn to do is move the club without doing much twisting.  I accomplish the no twist backswing by bending my left elbow to make the backswing instead of turning my shoulders.  I do setup with my shoulders closed so that serves as a sort of pre turn.  The downswing is simply a straightening out of the arms to the ball and the follow through is just whatever you can do to avoid any stress on your body.  The follow through does not mean anything as what you do after the ball is gone has no effect on the flight of the ball, you could fall down if you wanted to after impact and the flight of the ball would be the same.

 

Here is what my swing looked like a while back http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PNjwgxlacc

https://youtube.com/shorts/KddtAa1RVoA

 

Stan

 

Thanks, for sharing Stan. Nice to see you figured out away to make it happen! I have a bad back and bad lead shoulder and can not make a full turn and get the club up in the backswing. I used to blame my lack of backswing on my back and now I am thinking my shoulder is playing a big part in this.

[ALIF]

I have a fused L5-S1 (ALIF). Anyway, for years I early extended because I could not right lateral and due to pain. So for the last 3 1/2 years since my spinal fusion I've had to unlearn this early extension pattern that I never did when I was younger. Anyway it's been pretty tough. Going into right lateral bend does not hurt anymore but it's just difficult for me to get used to doing again. I physically can do it even though my L5 S1 is fused. Tiger can do it too. I had the same surgery as him. I'm sure it took him a while to get used to doing it pain free. 

[ewaldbeukes]

On 10/31/2022 at 9:17 PM, Thinset said:

Standard setup at address, don't drop the back foot back.  

You can stand "almost" straight up, just bend forward a little and bend your knees a little, just so you maintain decent balance.

Take the club straight back and up, no turn on the backswing (Jim Furyk-style?).  

Your arms start down first, then, to open your hips, 

you pivot on BOTH feet to clear your hips to the point that your belt buckle points to the target.  Your whole body will be facing the target when you're finished.  

You just adjust the timing of your pivot so that you are able to see your contact with the ball from your right eye (for a righty).  

Upright finish for sure, as you note in your opening post, 

but you should find that your weight is shifting back onto your back foot at the top of your follow-through.  This shift back onto the back foot on the follow-through will take the place of an "unencumbered" golfer's arching the back on the follow-through.  That said, your finishing form will look great, and there won't be any twisting from the waist up.    

It might take 8-10 rounds to work this out.  

It could cost you 20- 30 yards per club, but it beats the heck out of just wishing you could play, or forcing the issue by "picking the scab".  

You'll leave some marks on the tee box, fairway, etc from the pivot on weighted front foot, but they'll be less destructive, even wearing cleated shoes, than the divots created by the people slamming their clubs into the ground behind the ball.  

Meantime, and maybe forever, stay off the driving range (i.e., don't pick the scab).  

Good luck.  

I want to chime in and hopefully add to the OPs question (please let me know if I am hijacking the thread).

 

I am due to go in for a spinal fusion (single level L4, L5) in January so once recovered I am also starting to look at not only ways to swing the club without pain and with less twisting but also interested if anyone made equipment changes and if so what?

 

Swing wise I like what @Thinset has mentioned and I am working to get these feels in pre-operatively so I maybe recall a reference point after surgery! (We can only hope)... I was wondering if there was any instructional materials to read or watch? I have looked at a few guys touting upright swings and also look at Rocco Mediate / Jimmy Ballard. Even looking through all this I am finding it hard to find people explaining WHAT moves put pressure on the spine and what doesnt. @ALIFmentions early extension (I also have done this due to pain and hope this helps post surgery) as a great example of what might add to a useful body of knowledge - ie dont do this, its worse than rotation etc. Also, for @golftechit might be different as his is cervical and so it gets me thinking things like keeping the head down is a really bad call and looking at Annika / Duvals move with the head rotation could be helpful etc.

 

Did anyone make club changes? More upright lies, lighter shafts, graphite? I am currently a low handicap 115mph type swinger so I fully expect to have to regain that speed post operatively, but have thought it might be opportune to look at like Steelfiber 110 for dampening and a bit more speed etc. Anyone that made changes that has insights?

[ALIF]

44 minutes ago, ewaldbeukes said:

I want to chime in and hopefully add to the OPs question (please let me know if I am hijacking the thread).

 

I am due to go in for a spinal fusion (single level L4, L5) in January so once recovered I am also starting to look at not only ways to swing the club without pain and with less twisting but also interested if anyone made equipment changes and if so what?

 

Swing wise I like what @Thinset has mentioned and I am working to get these feels in pre-operatively so I maybe recall a reference point after surgery! (We can only hope)... I was wondering if there was any instructional materials to read or watch? I have looked at a few guys touting upright swings and also look at Rocco Mediate / Jimmy Ballard. Even looking through all this I am finding it hard to find people explaining WHAT moves put pressure on the spine and what doesnt. @ALIFmentions early extension (I also have done this due to pain and hope this helps post surgery) as a great example of what might add to a useful body of knowledge - ie dont do this, its worse than rotation etc. Also, for @golftechit might be different as his is cervical and so it gets me thinking things like keeping the head down is a really bad call and looking at Annika / Duvals move with the head rotation could be helpful etc.

 

Did anyone make club changes? More upright lies, lighter shafts, graphite? I am currently a low handicap 115mph type swinger so I fully expect to have to regain that speed post operatively, but have thought it might be opportune to look at like Steelfiber 110 for dampening and a bit more speed etc. Anyone that made changes that has insights?

So the thing about the lumbar vertebrae is their range of motion is flexion and extension not twisting. so the thoracic spine is what is responsible for twisting in the golf swing. However, players that use excessive right lateral bend in the golf swing (Nieman, Fleetwood, Mito Pereria, etc) put twisting forces through their lumbar vertebrae that have to be absorbed. That could put more stress than you want on a fused spine and or adjacent vertebrae/discs. I don’t think it’s a huge issue if you are careful, but it is something I personally am aware of. I think the more parallel you can get your hips and shoulders at impact, the less stress due to excessive right lateral bending you’ll have on your lumbar vertebrae. Obviously, to swing a golf club well there needs to be some “verticalness” (new word, lol) to the shoulder plane or right lateral band at impact. I think a reasonable amount like Tiger now has or Ben Hogan had or Victor Perez, Ross Fisher type swings, etc have is ok. Rory also is another good swing model of a wonderful swing but does not have excessive right lateral bent at impact.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by ALIF
Typo

[Thinset]

15 hours ago, ewaldbeukes said:

I want to chime in and hopefully add to the OPs question (please let me know if I am hijacking the thread).

 

I am due to go in for a spinal fusion (single level L4, L5) in January so once recovered I am also starting to look at not only ways to swing the club without pain and with less twisting but also interested if anyone made equipment changes and if so what?

 

Swing wise I like what @Thinset has mentioned and I am working to get these feels in pre-operatively so I maybe recall a reference point after surgery! (We can only hope)... I was wondering if there was any instructional materials to read or watch? I have looked at a few guys touting upright swings and also look at Rocco Mediate / Jimmy Ballard. Even looking through all this I am finding it hard to find people explaining WHAT moves put pressure on the spine and what doesnt. @ALIFmentions early extension (I also have done this due to pain and hope this helps post surgery) as a great example of what might add to a useful body of knowledge - ie dont do this, its worse than rotation etc. Also, for @golftechit might be different as his is cervical and so it gets me thinking things like keeping the head down is a really bad call and looking at Annika / Duvals move with the head rotation could be helpful etc.

 

Did anyone make club changes? More upright lies, lighter shafts, graphite? I am currently a low handicap 115mph type swinger so I fully expect to have to regain that speed post operatively, but have thought it might be opportune to look at like Steelfiber 110 for dampening and a bit more speed etc. Anyone that made changes that has insights?

I'm reminded of a pga tour player ( I no longer remember his name) who oftentimes "walked through" with his right leg on his follow-through, due to the momentum of his swing, and perhaps due to being  simply unable to maintain his balance on his follow-through "in place".  One of the members here could chime in, I'm sure.  Be that as it may (have been), that could be an option that if it works for you, could be better than ending up rocking back on your right leg, since many of us tend to cheat our swings a little bit, which might cost us club head speed due to reduced forward momentum.  

  

I'm not a medical anything (except a specimen, perhaps) so no attempt at advice here, except that the fusion will put strain on whatever hardware they install (e.g., screws) and the disc above and below the site.  You should get all the post-op advice you can stand from the spine doctor and physical therapist.  

DON'T PICK THE SCAB.  Wait long enough for it to heal to the satisfaction of your medical team.  You could ask about wearing a lower back brace or pad as a reminder, if you need to keep that lower back area as vertical as possible, in which case you'll be bending forward a little, from up higher in your back.  

You might have a club fitter look at the lie of your clubs after you're totally healed.  You may find that the combination of knee flex and upper back tilt puts the sole of your clubs in the same spot they're in now.  You've not indicated, and I'm not supposing, but there may be a tendency to not want to bend anything at all, in your effort to keep your lower back more vertical and avoid twisting, so forcing yourself to bend your knees might be on tap.  OTOH, I liked the idea of being more vertical resulting in higher club head speed from a backswing transition to the downswing with the club head slightly higher in the air, more like a pinwheel motion.  Good luck.  🙂.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Thinset

[chipa]

On 10/25/2022 at 9:48 PM, golftech said:

I’d like to start a thread for those with lumbar or cervical spine fusion. I’m about to have a 2 level cervical spine fusion and wonder the types of swing changes others made afterwards.  I’ve always tried to distribute stress across my back with spine bends balanced at setup across lumbar, thoracic and cervical spine.  While I was taught that years ago, it’s nice seeing Gankas and others teaching this setup posture now and not an ultra straight back anymore.  Beside setup posture, what mechanical swings changes have others made.  Plus, any teachers out there experienced with fused students? While parts of Ballard’s common denominators make sense, Knudson ‘headless’ swinging motion looks like it adds rotational aspects but still limits back stress, both lumbar and cervical.  Plus his upright finish should be better on my fused neck.  I’d like to hear from others about this.  Thanks,

 

 

Good afternoon. I haven't posted in a while but I have 3 fused vertebrae in my lower back and a tilt to the right side due to an accident and consequently my right shoulder is probably 3/4" lower than my left. Since I started playing golf again 3 years ago I have tried many different techniques in order to build a repeating swing and limit stressing my lower back as much as possible. I am 57 and play with a buddy who is 55 with not as severe back problems.

 

We have come up with a simple swing based on classical teaching and a lot of trial and error. I would say this technique is a combination of Freddy Couples and John Daly. Freddy Couples in that we strive to resist somewhat with our legs initially which forces us to take the club outside. Also, the takeaway mimics John Daly's forward press, left hand and arm dominated takeaway and left shoulder extension at the left shirt sleeve at the top. The setup and takeaway are meticulous but there are no downswing thoughts. 

 

Since we have been using the latest version of this technique with the forward press our hand and arm mechanics have improved a great deal and as a consequence our backs no longer bother us. I'm sure it's other factors as well but we have stumbled on something that creates a failry repeatable swing and plenty of clubhead speed for both of us although we are both only 5'6".  I'll post a video of my swing. I have my friends too but he had only one day with a new leg setup for him and wasn't very comfortable. Still he knocked out a 270 yard wind aided 3 wood with a nice draw, which is the normal shape of the ball flight for this method.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by chipa

[chipa]

Here is my latest swign with this technique with my 4 iron. My right hand is lower than my left on the shaft due to my right shoulder being lower. I have an almost 10 finger grip, I just use what feels natural.

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by chipa

[ALIF]

Chipa, sounded flushed? Donde?

[chipa]

6 hours ago, ALIF said:

Chipa, sounded flushed? Donde?

 

Good morning. I made a good swing but maybe hit it just a little on the toe so I lost 10 yards a little to the right but still playable.

 

I live in the Dominican Republic. I play with my best friend Javier who is from Ecuador. 

[ALIF]

8 hours ago, chipa said:

 

Good morning. I made a good swing but maybe hit it just a little on the toe so I lost 10 yards a little to the right but still playable.

 

I live in the Dominican Republic. I play with my best friend Javier who is from Ecuador. 

Beautiful looking course!

[ewaldbeukes]

Hi Guys, thought to ask this here and will also ask on another forum. I am going in for my procedure on the 8th of January 2023 and after that its the long road of recovery and back to golf... 

 

I was wondering if it would be useful to document parts of the journey and if I did what things would be of interest? Besides the normal items of what led me to surgery, surgery, post operative pain etc. Timelines ie when could I do what, at what point can you start to putt, chip, swing etc. I am also going to be working with a swing coach to rebuild my swing to accomodate longevity and will be working with a TPI specialist / trainer on getting the body ready for those changes. Finally, also budgeted for a complete overhaul of my clubs - figuring will need some changes and that might be of interest as well. 

 

Anything in particular that anyone on this thread or other past and future patients might be interested to know or that I can include in the journey and feedback on (feel free to use me as a guinea pig within reason). @golftech as the OP - anything that would be helpful for you as this thread was born out of a good question that I think is on many of our minds! 

[chipa]

3 hours ago, ewaldbeukes said:

Hi Guys, thought to ask this here and will also ask on another forum. I am going in for my procedure on the 8th of January 2023 and after that its the long road of recovery and back to golf... 

 

I was wondering if it would be useful to document parts of the journey and if I did what things would be of interest? Besides the normal items of what led me to surgery, surgery, post operative pain etc. Timelines ie when could I do what, at what point can you start to putt, chip, swing etc. I am also going to be working with a swing coach to rebuild my swing to accomodate longevity and will be working with a TPI specialist / trainer on getting the body ready for those changes. Finally, also budgeted for a complete overhaul of my clubs - figuring will need some changes and that might be of interest as well. 

 

Anything in particular that anyone on this thread or other past and future patients might be interested to know or that I can include in the journey and feedback on (feel free to use me as a guinea pig within reason). @golftech as the OP - anything that would be helpful for you as this thread was born out of a good question that I think is on many of our minds! 

 

Hey buddy stay positive I'm sure everything will work out as planned, God is good.

 

When you can play again I would recommend reading Hogan's instruction about leg tension. I have 3 fused vertebrae from over 30 years ago and learning to use my legs has allowed me to play w/o hurting my back.

[ewaldbeukes]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

 

Hey buddy stay positive I'm sure everything will work out as planned, God is good.

 

When you can play again I would recommend reading Hogan's instruction about leg tension. I have 3 fused vertebrae from over 30 years ago and learning to use my legs has allowed me to play w/o hurting my back.

Thank you! Will look at it for sure... loads of the Jimmy Ballard reading I have been doing also refer to Hogans later years swing changes , thanks for the tip

[golftech]

I appreciate everyone’s posting on this thread (as the OP).  I created this post to share and learn from others and I have.  I’ve been relative quiet past 3 weeks recovering from the cervical fusion.  I’m still 2-4 months away from swinging again once surgeon signs off on successful fusion.  Having studied under Jimmy Ballard in the 1980’s (and also briefly under Ballard’s mentor, Sam Byrd) the references to him make a lot of sense, especially for lower back, lumbar issues.  I don’t find many swing mechanic references for Cervical and upper Thoracic, even with TPI.  The only real instruction I’ve found out there is George Knudson’s which promoted tilt elimination post impact.  

[chipa]

2 hours ago, golftech said:

I appreciate everyone’s posting on this thread (as the OP).  I created this post to share and learn from others and I have.  I’ve been relative quiet past 3 weeks recovering from the cervical fusion.  I’m still 2-4 months away from swinging again once surgeon signs off on successful fusion.  Having studied under Jimmy Ballard in the 1980’s (and also briefly under Ballard’s mentor, Sam Byrd) the references to him make a lot of sense, especially for lower back, lumbar issues.  I don’t find many swing mechanic references for Cervical and upper Thoracic, even with TPI.  The only real instruction I’ve found out there is George Knudson’s which promoted tilt elimination post impact.  

 

I would look at John Daly's technique. He does not take care of himself unfortunately as well as he coud and yet is still very long. He does drop his right shoulder but his hips tilt as well so I feel there is very little disc compression. At any rate what I have learned is that the right shoulder dropping is a lot due to how hard one tries to release their right hand, so it can be controlled. I have gone to his technique with 3 fused vertebrae and my back no longer bothers me. Good luck.

[ewaldbeukes]

9 hours ago, golftech said:

I appreciate everyone’s posting on this thread (as the OP).  I created this post to share and learn from others and I have.  I’ve been relative quiet past 3 weeks recovering from the cervical fusion.  I’m still 2-4 months away from swinging again once surgeon signs off on successful fusion.  Having studied under Jimmy Ballard in the 1980’s (and also briefly under Ballard’s mentor, Sam Byrd) the references to him make a lot of sense, especially for lower back, lumbar issues.  I don’t find many swing mechanic references for Cervical and upper Thoracic, even with TPI.  The only real instruction I’ve found out there is George Knudson’s which promoted tilt elimination post impact.  

Good luck with the recovery! Rooting for you that it all goes smoothly and your back at golf in no time.

 

Would be really interested in your experiences with Ballard - loads of positives about his swing ideas being great for the back and hitting straight but lacking power. Interested if anyone has "built" on the body of knowledge to add some speed... interesting none the less. 

 

Would this not be a way to go? I can think that the old adage of keep the head down would be terrible for the neck? Some great pros have "swiveled the neck"... I must scratch around as I am sure I saw some articles around this. Have you looked down this rabbit hole?

 

 

 

 

[chipa]

7 hours ago, ewaldbeukes said:

Good luck with the recovery! Rooting for you that it all goes smoothly and your back at golf in no time.

 

Would be really interested in your experiences with Ballard - loads of positives about his swing ideas being great for the back and hitting straight but lacking power. Interested if anyone has "built" on the body of knowledge to add some speed... interesting none the less. 

 

Would this not be a way to go? I can think that the old adage of keep the head down would be terrible for the neck? Some great pros have "swiveled the neck"... I must scratch around as I am sure I saw some articles around this. Have you looked down this rabbit hole?

 

 

 

 

 

I spent about 6 months trying to do the Ballard swing as demostrated by Rocco Mediate and looking at his videos. Ballard teaches that the elbows c0ck the hands and also teaches the classic one piece takeaway. I learned a great deal from trying this method, specifically turning the upper spine , which I have integraed into my current technique. Nonetheless, the elbows cocking the hands is not something I can make work with any consistency. In fact if my left hand doesn't start the swing I have learned it will let go of the club at the top and regraip as my right hand takes over. Therefore, the one piece takeaway is not something I can do and hit the ball consistently.

 

After looking at Bobby Jones swing and his recomendations to have the left hand in control and the right hand passive I started from there and then looked at Tommy Armour with his superb hand and arm mechanics. Both do a slight forward press, which intrigued me. Eventually I gravitated toward John Daly's technique albiet without his shoulder turn. Daly's technique is apparently easy on the body as he doesn' t take care of himself and still bombs it in his late 50's. 

 

I've come to the conclusion that Ballard's takeaway is designed to get the weight on the right side to load it effectively and thus use the big muscles of the legs to power the swing. Nonetheless, the hand and arm mechanics aren't easy to master for everyone.

[Tanner25]

Can anyone recommend a swing that is easy on the trail knee? Sorry, to threadjack. But, I figured the bad back crowd would understand my question and I have a bad back too.

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Tanner25 said:

Can anyone recommend a swing that is easy on the trail knee? Sorry, to threadjack. But, I figured the bad back crowd would understand my question and I have a bad back too.

 

My trail knee is bad too. I'm 57 years old. If you look at physical fitness technique for older people you will see the concept of preloading the tendons before the exercise if possible and holding the tension in order to limit injury due to weak tendons. They are like rubber bands that hold the joints together, however, age and injury can cause them too loosen and lose their flexibility.

 

I do a swing that is very much based on leg tension, which as far as I know in looking at techinqiues in the last almost 30 years only Hogan addressed this issue. Most of today's instruction from what I can tell does not address this.

 

I have talked about this on the forum but I haven't seen any real intertest either.

 

Nonetheless, I have had good results given my bad back and knees. The leg tension I am describing is no more than if one does a slight squat and doing a small jump. It is not supposed to hurt, it's supple tension. After many years of trying to understand what Hogan discussed I can say that I finally understand how to get there more or less on demand. Plus my good friend Javier uses this technique as well so I can say this technique is certainly teachable (he is in the beginning phase). Hogan says that once a golfer learns to use his legs correctly it will change the dynamics of the swing and will become more powerful as the body feels feels the force it can generate. Specifically, the right leg and hand will become more active through impact. However, this doesn't mean it has to hurt as long as one has the legs preloaded before swinging.

 

I have a video of me and my buddy with our preswing routine that helps prepare the legs, it's swinging back and forth while both legs resist and the hands can come off the club a little as we don't want the hands to break the leg tension. After that with the correct leg tension in mind we immediately swing.

Edited December 7, 2022 by chipa

[golftech]

8 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I spent about 6 months trying to do the Ballard swing as demostrated by Rocco Mediate and looking at his videos. Ballard teaches that the elbows c0ck the hands and also teaches the classic one piece takeaway. I learned a great deal from trying this method, specifically turning the upper spine , which I have integraed into my current technique. Nonetheless, the elbows cocking the hands is not something I can make work with any consistency. In fact if my left hand doesn't start the swing I have learned it will let go of the club at the top and regraip as my right hand takes over. Therefore, the one piece takeaway is not something I can do and hit the ball consistently.

 

After looking at Bobby Jones swing and his recomendations to have the left hand in control and the right hand passive I started from there and then looked at Tommy Armour with his superb hand and arm mechanics. Both do a slight forward press, which intrigued me. Eventually I gravitated toward John Daly's technique albiet without his shoulder turn. Daly's technique is apparently easy on the body as he doesn' t take care of himself and still bombs it in his late 50's. 

 

I've come to the conclusion that Ballard's takeaway is designed to get the weight on the right side to load it effectively and thus use the big muscles of the legs to power the swing. Nonetheless, the hand and arm mechanics aren't easy to master for everyone.

I strongly encourage you to read Wild Bill Mehlhorn’s teaching.  Mehlhorn taught Sam Byrd who then taught Jimmy Ballard.  Your post here touches on Wild Bill’s explanation on the hand extension /arm flexion motion, but always in coordination with the lower body pivot.  I still remember asking Sam Byrd about a one-prince takeaway.  His response was the hands, arms, shoulders, hips, knees and feet move independently, but in coordination.  And then when I first read Mehlhorn, he stated the same.  
Thanks for your post, it reminded me of Mehlhorn’s teachings which I’d forgotten.  And Mehlhorn also talked about the fact that in his generation, few had back issues and reasons why.  In Vardon’s time they swung in wool coats, which required a fuller hip pivot, with minimal spine twist and tilts not even possible.  It’s great to remember this!  

[chipa]

18 minutes ago, golftech said:

I strongly encourage you to read Wild Bill Mehlhorn’s teaching.  Mehlhorn taught Sam Byrd who then taught Jimmy Ballard.  Your post here touches on Wild Bill’s explanation on the hand extension /arm flexion motion, but always in coordination with the lower body pivot.  I still remember asking Sam Byrd about a one-prince takeaway.  His response was the hands, arms, shoulders, hips, knees and feet move independently, but in coordination.  And then when I first read Mehlhorn, he stated the same.  
Thanks for your post, it reminded me of Mehlhorn’s teachings which I’d forgotten.  And Mehlhorn also talked about the fact that in his generation, few had back issues and reasons why.  In Vardon’s time they swung in wool coats, which required a fuller hip pivot, with minimal spine twist and tilts not even possible.  It’s great to remember this!  

 

Thanks, I'm familiar with Wild Bill's swing but not necessarily his teaching.

 

Nonetheless, with my back and knee issues I believe I have taken a departure from most instruction out there in that I have no downswing fabricated movements. All our technique is built into the setup and takeaway and the top of the swing finishes with stretching the left shirt sleeve at the top.

 

I have done this to protect my weak lower back and knees, as the downswing is merely the realease of tension built up in my legs and upper left arm and shoulder. I never try to hit a specific postion or even try to turn my hips for that matter during the downswing. This is a "loading and unloading" technique type of swing with the hands and arms mechanics having a very specific setup and initial sequence in order to limit any manipultion during the downswing. 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by chipa

[ewaldbeukes]

8 hours ago, golftech said:

I strongly encourage you to read Wild Bill Mehlhorn’s teaching.  Mehlhorn taught Sam Byrd who then taught Jimmy Ballard.  Your post here touches on Wild Bill’s explanation on the hand extension /arm flexion motion, but always in coordination with the lower body pivot.  I still remember asking Sam Byrd about a one-prince takeaway.  His response was the hands, arms, shoulders, hips, knees and feet move independently, but in coordination.  And then when I first read Mehlhorn, he stated the same.  
Thanks for your post, it reminded me of Mehlhorn’s teachings which I’d forgotten.  And Mehlhorn also talked about the fact that in his generation, few had back issues and reasons why.  In Vardon’s time they swung in wool coats, which required a fuller hip pivot, with minimal spine twist and tilts not even possible.  It’s great to remember this!  

Any chance of a link to his teachings? Found a youtube video I will digest tonight but interested if there is a book or content somewhere else? Came up empty searching...

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by ewaldbeukes
Extra

[chipa]

Here is an except from Ben Hogan's Five Lesson's:

 

"We want active relaxation, not limp or tense but a little live tension in muscles about to do work. We want the muscles we are about to be using tuned up. We set ourselves by positioning it so the muscular system can work correctly. Above all, the knees must be properly flexed, the legs must be supple but at the same time they must have live tension. The rest of the body will pick up the athletic temper from the legs. When the knees are flexed as they should be, we can move the hips and shoulders with real ease."

 

This is what I read back in the 90's and have spent many years trying to understand. I give credit to Rocco/Ballards recommendation to stay forward on the feet and also as a consequence of trying Rocco's takeaway I learned the importance of rotating the upper vertebrae.

 

Since having added a forward press I find it's a lot easier to maintain the live tension Hogan discussed plus the legs tense slightly durign the forward press. Hogan did a forward press of his legs.

 

This technique is much easier on the back. It is also a very efficient technique as my 3 wood clubhead speed is 103-109. I don't hit my short/mid irons as far due to not having enough lower back flexibility to bend over adequately, however, I hit my long irons fairly well. The video I posted is my 4 iron and is in the mid 90's. My friend Javiers clubhead speed jumps 10 mph when he executes "Hogan's leg tenstion" well. When I was in my 30's my clubhead speed maximum was in the high 120's with 43.5" shafts, so I believe the leg technique has enabled me to approach my maximum efficiency. I feel like if I used a driver with a 46" shaft I could approach 120 mph with this technique.

[ewaldbeukes]

Hi all, happy new year to you! Hope its a great 2023 with lots of pain free golf for us all (including myself towards the end of the year!)

 

I was doing some reading and was wondering if any of you knew where to find some better answers.

 

My issue being lumbar spine, a key for future swing changes is to reduce the load on the lumbar spine. By "load" I can only assume twisting / X Factor type moves but I am really struggling to find some reference material on exactly what causes load and what lessens it? Anyone have any links to reading that might be useful? Perhaps anything digestible from a biomechanics standpoint?

 

Even chatting to the TPI professional that did my assessment a year ago there seems to be very little proper information on how to swing with fused backs and necks (even just back pain)... besides the odd "method". Looking more for principles to guide us as we all swing differently. 

 

Some good information that I found and seems to make sense from a post op recovery perspective is for me to work heavily on core stability, then flexibility particularly in the hips and thoracic spine to accommodate the lack of lumbar movement. This should give me the best chance to not do more damage whilst returning to the game. I am currently around the 110 - 115mph swing speed (92-95 with 7 iron) so assuming nothing I do will completely take load away even if I lost 10mph+ eventually on the driver and a touch on the irons.