Wrx nerd, wrx speed, needs more golf, but can work on...?

[joostin]

It's been a long time since recording my swings on video.  I was at the range checking speeds on PRGR, going pretty hard but striking well, and decided to take some vids (DTL only of several clubs).

 

I've been on a bit of a speed journey this year.  About a year ago I was barely able to reach 110 mph when a few years earlier I was 115 on Trackman.  I'm determined at early 40s to not pull out the age card for as long as possible, and this year has shown it's possible to cruise even faster than my younger self.  Luckily I think striking has been better making a more aggressive move at the ball while trying to stay controlled.

 

I've been wanting to post here to check in with swing gurus.  I think there's not only more in the tank as far as speed, but efficiency.  I'm sure there are inefficient movements that I should work on ridding (on top of just golfing more).  I might already be relatively quick, especially as a 5'6" shorty, but it's all in the fun of things to push what's possible and have higher cruising and reserve speed.  More importantly a swing with maybe a better base for improvement.

 

I see similar things from PW to driver:  A little rock to the heel on the lead foot at takeaway.  Forward head movement from P2 to P4, squat, then pulling up and away a lot from P5 to P7 - which seems like a big difference from most pro swings, and thin miss makes sense.  Trail foot sliding back a little when squatting.  Popping up and away like a lesser version of some long drivers (intentional ground usage).  Hit mostly little pull cuts in the vid except for the 6 iron, though drawing everything is no problem (takes more effort with this driver).  Disregarding my alignment stick/club 😁

 

 

This is new to me as I'm more of a WRX club tech forum nerd.  Never worked with a pro and tbh have been on a 0-2 golf rounds per month pace for forever lol, but let's hear it.....  Even if it's "just go play more dude" which I already know 😄

[Righty to Lefty]

We are in the same swing speed class and I hit PW 150 yards and I figured something was off with your numbers. You are striking PW at or very close to low point which is not good because the ball traveled exactly down your shoulder line when a ball hit off the ground should look like a push on video. 

 

 

Same issue with your 8 Iron: 

 

And the 6 iron: 

 

The 4 iron is actually even more of a pull and you are striking it after low point which hinges on disaster as it is traveling left of your shoulder line: 

 

The 4 wood is pretty damn good as the build of the club will have it being the closet to traveling along your shoulder line so this is a really levered shot but also notice how much more left your plane or shoulder line is oriented when compared to your other iron shots when all of your more lofted clubs should have a shoulder plane progressively more left as loft increases due to the build of the club: 

Model representation of the shots (except the 4 wood shot) you hit where your shoulder line is parallel to the target line of the shot and it is being struck at or very close to low point of the swing arc which is not good.  The pencil represents the club face at impact: 

 

For reference this is Tiger from roughly the same shoulder plane line as you at impact (the only shot hit off the ground that you maxed out your leverage on was the 4 wood and you display  a very similar shoulder plane to Tiger at impact which makes sense because that was the best struck shot that you hit off the ground):

 

But notice how his ball is launching more to the right than yours is as it should be.  That is because he is striking the ball at a more optimal location along his swing arc than you are.  This is a model representation of the shot Tiger hit where the low point of his swing arc is marked on the trash can lid and the pencil represents the club face and you can see how it point out to the right because it is being struck with a negative AoA: 

 

What this means is that the ball is in the wrong location on your swing arc to be struck with max leverage because no shot should be struck at low point of the swing arc. 

 

Before I even look at your driver swing I am going to go out on a limb and say that you smoke your driver!

 

Yup that's bout what I figured!! 

 

Driver is struck at a different location on the swing arc and you got that one nailed one as this is a model representation of the driver shot that you hit that is hit with max leverage: 

 

Notice how your shoulder plane is constant in all those model representations and being that you cannot aim a driver and a ball being hit off the ground at the same target (unless you use shot shape) using the same shoulder plane angle because they are struck at two different locations on your swing arc, a driver shot will look like a pull and a ball being hit off the ground will look like a push unless you make plane adjustments to bring them onto the same target line.

 

The following would be a proper struck shot with driver and ball a being hit of the ground aimed down the same target line and notice how the plane angle of the shoulders is very different:

 

Proper struck shot being hit off the ground plane / shoulder line is left of the target line: 

 

Proper stuck driver being hit off a tee aimed down the same target line with the plane / shoulder line right of the target line: 

 

You have a really good rhythm to your swing motion for sure and your main issue is that you are not striking your shots off the ground at the proper location along your swing arc.  Please note that the low point is actually in the exact same location for all clubs being hit off the ground but the build of the club will make wedges look back in the stance and fairway woods look forward  in when in reality they are in the exact same relation to low point.  Understanding this should help you gain a more levered strike and your shots off the ground will look more like a push as they should.  I think that I have already exposed you to this info before in other threads but I hope it will hit home when applied to your swing motion and let me know if you have any more questions or need clarification on anything I posted. R to L. 

 

Full video that I used for the model representations that is very useful and notice how he is spinning the trashcan lid while keeping the swing center (the sternum) constant as this important to understand as that is how you aim a shot to a different location once you find max leverage so that means you will move around the ball in a semicircle: 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[joostin]

Thank you @Righty to Lefty!

I understand, and have watched the video before because you've posted it, but haven't applied to myself yet because of lack of video analysis (I probably thought I was catching them along the necessary point on the semicircle, but not in actuality).  I hope to try soon and have it hit home.

 

The ball speeds can be taken with a grain of salt partially because the range balls have seen better days (club speeds though were pretty consistent and my main focus that day), and yardages because of PRGR estimation, but based on your feedback there's definitely ball position and alignment that I need to pay closer attention to.  Appreciate the help!

[Righty to Lefty]

@alanbuchananI am tagging you in this thread so that you will be able to see that your situation is probably the most common issue that I notice when I look at swing videos and @joosin is familiar with the concepts that you were just introduced to but I have actually never seen his swing before to see that he is dealing with the same thing you are of being out of position in relation to the ball.  

 

14 hours ago, joostin said:

Thank you @Righty to Lefty!

I understand, and have watched the video before because you've posted it, but haven't applied to myself yet because of lack of video analysis (I probably thought I was catching them along the necessary point on the semicircle, but not in actuality).  I hope to try soon and have it hit home.

 

The ball speeds can be taken with a grain of salt partially because the range balls have seen better days (club speeds though were pretty consistent and my main focus that day), and yardages because of PRGR estimation, but based on your feedback there's definitely ball position and alignment that I need to pay closer attention to.  Appreciate the help!

I am glad that you put you swing up because I am seeing that it is a trend and I will tag you in another members swing video thread because I find it very powerful to not only see the math being applied to your own video, but also to see just how common it truly is in others.  Of course don't hesitate to reach out with your questions and I will be glad to clarify. R to L

Edited November 8, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[joostin]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

@alanbuchananI am tagging you in this thread so that you will be able to see that your situation is probably the most common issue that I notice when I look at swing videos and @joosin is familiar with the concepts that you were just introduced to but I have actually never seen his swing before to see that he is dealing with the same thing you are of being out of position in relation to the ball.  

 

I am glad that you put you swing up because I am seeing that it is a trend and I will tag you in another members swing video thread because I find it very powerful to not only see the math being applied to your own video, but also to see just how common it truly is in others.  Of course don't hesitate to reach out with your questions and I will be glad to clarify. R to L

👍You know, just a quick observation, when I put down an alignment stick parallel to the target, I always feel pointed way too left.  Without changing ball position I will hit left unless I hit a back in stance punch draw.  Without an alignment stick, usually I'll draw starting right of target, but not sure if it's a pull draw (6i above), or ball more back in stance draw.  Probably pull drawing as I'm mainly a picker.

 

I've watched a bunch of Shawn Clement vids in the past and like his "send the momentum" to a certain spot with a shot shape in mind, rather than worrying too much that the foot line is pointed perfectly parallel to the target at address like teachers commonly say.  A bit Bubba like.  Gotta check it out and recalibrate!

[Righty to Lefty]

19 hours ago, joostin said:

👍You know, just a quick observation, when I put down an alignment stick parallel to the target, I always feel pointed way too left.  Without changing ball position I will hit left unless I hit a back in stance punch draw.  Without an alignment stick, usually I'll draw starting right of target, but not sure if it's a pull draw (6i above), or ball more back in stance draw.  Probably pull drawing as I'm mainly a picker.

 

I've watched a bunch of Shawn Clement vids in the past and like his "send the momentum" to a certain spot with a shot shape in mind, rather than worrying too much that the foot line is pointed perfectly parallel to the target at address like teachers commonly say.  A bit Bubba like.  Gotta check it out and recalibrate!

So anytime I see someone put down alignment sticks I know that they mean well because they see a pro do it but often even the pros are getting it wrong.  The line of the feet is irrelevant because the club will follow the line of the shoulder plane in all instances. That being said knowing now what you know the only way that your shoulder line can be parallel to your target line and you hit a ball at a target is to either strike the ball at low point of the swing arc, which is not good, or to play shot shape where if you have a negative angle of attack you have to play a draw, and if you have a positive angle of attack you will have to play a fade but that is the only way. 

 

If you are going to put down alignment sticks there should be one pointing at your target line, and another one that you will use for your shoulder line. I bet you that if you put up a video of yourself hitting a "back of the stance punch draw" that your impact will be much closer to what it should actually be for all of your shots being hit off the ground.  Also to negate the draw that you are hitting all you have to do is preset the face open some amount prior to taking your grip and then your shots will fly straight.  I know many say that it is not possible to hit straight shots but that is incorrect if you truly understand impact.  I hit the ball straight with all my clubs and it makes it much easier to play shot shape going from hitting it straight to hitting a draw or fade, than it is going from hitting a draw to hitting a fade or vice versa. 

 

When you are hitting your long irons you may have to preset more loft on the face prior to taking your grip because what you are likely doing is delofting the club by striking it after low point pulling it left and if you get it right it will actually go pretty far but it hinges on disaster because the club is beginning to come off the ground after low point of the swing arc.  If you are hitting low shots with your long irons when you get your low point into the right location then preset loft on the face before you take your grip and don't change anything else and just trust that the club will square to your target line. 

 

I can definitely see a lot of Shawn Clement in your swing motion and that is great and I love his content but the devil is in the details for sure and that is why most of my posts are long and I will give you and example.  He often says that you want to send your momentum to the target, but he doesn't mention that the target is never the the actual target line that the ball will be traveling along.  The true "target" that momentum is being sent to is never the "actual" target and it is always sent to the right of the ball's location along your swing arc even on a fade because of the laws of physics. 

 

So for the ball to travel along this target line that the pencil is point at: 

 

 

 

The diagram below is a model representation of a planet revolving around the Sun but if you tilt it it will represent the swing and the circle on the trash can lid. Mainly focus on the top right quadrant and if you tilt the plane to the same angle as the trash can lid you can see where the force of the swing is being sent out to the right of the target line the ball will travel along  (this is the "target" Shawn Clement is speaking of) and that is important to notice. So that means to properly lever a ball you are actually sending the momentum of the swing to the right of the intended target line, depending on the point along your swing when you begin to apply force to the shaft with the trail arm, while trusting that the ball will be in the proper location along your swing arc that it will be struck as the face is squaring to your intended target line and this is very important to understand. 

 

Let me know if you have any other questions or things that you are trying to iron out and gain a better understanding of.  R to L

[BraxtonFullerton]

7 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

they see a pro do it but often even the pros are getting it wrong.  The line of the feet is irrelevant because the club will follow the line of the shoulder plane in all instances.

 

 

100% this. Foot alignment can very much influence shot shape, but what really matters is your shoulders. I can line up super closed to target, but because I'm a lefty who is also left eye dominant, will open my shoulders to peak at my target before my swing, and if I'm too fast and don't close back up, I can still hit a massive push-cut when meaning to hit a draw.

 

Learn to align your shoulders and then you can tinker with moving your feet to influence path.

[Ca3l]

6 minutes ago, BraxtonFullerton said:

 

 

100% this. Foot alignment can very much influence shot shape, but what really matters is your shoulders. I can line up super closed to target, but because I'm a lefty who is also left eye dominant, will open my shoulders to peak at my target before my swing, and if I'm too fast and don't close back up, I can still hit a massive push-cut when meaning to hit a draw.

 

Learn to align your shoulders and then you can tinker with moving your feet to influence path.

Not to thread-jack, but man, thanks — this might be an aha moment for me. I find it’s super easy to get messed up when you’re on a tee box especially.

 

For instance, there’s a dogleg right on my home course where I always set up on the far left side of the tee box and try to hit a draw (as a lefty), but prob 50% of the time I end up hitting a push even though I deliberately close my stance to aid the draw. I wonder if I’m just opening my shoulders up more to align them with the fairway. Going to pay better attention to that next time I’m out.

[Righty to Lefty]

14 hours ago, BraxtonFullerton said:

 

 

100% this. Foot alignment can very much influence shot shape, but what really matters is your shoulders. I can line up super closed to target, but because I'm a lefty who is also left eye dominant, will open my shoulders to peak at my target before my swing, and if I'm too fast and don't close back up, I can still hit a massive push-cut when meaning to hit a draw.

 

Learn to align your shoulders and then you can tinker with moving your feet to influence path.

Facts...Foot alignment can provide or restrict range of motion of the hips and that will translate to more access to a given plane angle for the shoulders but the club will still follow the line of the shoulders in all cases because the club is being held in the hands.  Dropping the trail foot back and such will mainly allow for the plane angle of the swing to be oriented more to the right is what is actually happening because every swing that you ever make has both in to out and out to in paths but what matters most is how that plane is oriented and at what point along your swing that arc the ball is located when it is struck. 

 

13 hours ago, Ca3l said:

Not to thread-jack, but man, thanks — this might be an aha moment for me. I find it’s super easy to get messed up when you’re on a tee box especially.

 

For instance, there’s a dogleg right on my home course where I always set up on the far left side of the tee box and try to hit a draw (as a lefty), but prob 50% of the time I end up hitting a push even though I deliberately close my stance to aid the draw. I wonder if I’m just opening my shoulders up more to align them with the fairway. Going to pay better attention to that next time I’m out.

This is very common and I would imagine every golfer has fallen victim to aligning improperly because their vision tricked them and thus getting an intermediate point out in front of the ball is huge because it will help you to see the true desired line of flight even if it doesn't look right when you address the ball.  The face to path difference needed to tilt the spin axis and create most shot shape is actually very small and only a couple degrees difference between face and path are needed, but dropping a foot back or making massive plane adjustments just opens the golfer up for frustration because you will be capable of making way too big of a plane angle adjustment than what is needed and it will not be repeatable and impact will suffer most likely, unless you are trying to create 20 to 30 yards or curvature, then you might have to drop the foot back but I digress!

 

Shoulder plane is the only variable in the golf swing because all the other parameters are fixed so it is definitely worthy of your attention as you noted: 

 

1. Low Point must be in a certain location in relation to the ball or the strike will be compromised. 

2. Club Face must point at the intended start line 

3. Speed a certain speed will go a certain distance

4. Shoulder Plane is the only variable because it is manipulated to create shot shape 

 

These are the only factors that govern all golf shots an once you truly understand that shoulder plane is the only variable then you can literally look at someone's setup and tell exactly where a well struck shot has to travel to because impact is the same for everyone. I take solace in the fact that it is all on me to truly understand what I am trying to accomplish prior to the shot and also to quickly interpret ball flight to be able to self correct from shot to shot and that a good or bad shot was completely on me. Please keep on thread-jacking as this info is mandatory to play your best golf !! R to L

[joostin]

I just wanted to post an update as striking has been noticeably better this year, and I didn't like where my swing was in the videos in the OP.  I've dialed down to a lot more cutoff swings where swing speeds and distances are 5-10% less than full swings and definitely more controlled on course. 

 

Also in the OP vids I was pulling up a lot at impact which I think stemmed from speed training without balls (noticed the same in the pandemic when getting back to golf and I was topping like crazy).  This is a big difference vs every pro swing I've slo-moed where there's no upward movement of the head at impact... and I was definitely the opposite of Joaquin Niemann.. Holy side bend!  Keeping down with side bend seems to be helping low point consistency. 

 

The pulling up and missing thin swing does creep back (esp. driver), but I'm enjoying the swing change results and will continue working.  And as always, open ears for feedback.

 

The irons below are cutoff backswing cutoff follow-though swings, giving my -10% numbers.  The 5 wood is actually also a cutoff backswing for me with a full follow-through, giving my -5% numbers.

 

 

IMO I can start the forward weight shift earlier, more Kwon-like, though hard to see without a face on view.  Again any feedback welcome.