2022 CME Group Tour Championship (Nov 17 - 20)

[Rapidcat]

47 minutes ago, JungleJimbo said:

Thanks @Rapidcat for the insights on Leona.

 

For folks interested... here is the Golf Channel coverage of R4 CME Tour Championship (Clip = via SkySportsUK youtube channel... requires UK VPN... timestamp ~1h26m: https://www.youtube.com/@SkySportsGolf).

 

Clip featuring Leona's 2nd shot at 14th hole: 
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxFRD6WPf0LJMwCWpAIC4AXImPWSxgQbAE

 

 

 

Cheers @JungleJimbo.

 

Having watched R4, her swing looked as it usually does. For those that don't follow Leona much, her driver balance is pretty much like what you saw, her reality is that she is trying to get every last mph of speed because she needs it, she'd be too short without it. If anyone thinks she was swinging out of her shoes, well she hit 12 of 14 fairways in R4 (256 yards ave distance for the reported stats) so it works for her.

 

However, that 2nd shot on 14 was a really poor swing, there must have been something about that shot that really spooked her. Her replayed shot wasn't that much better.

 

Considering how frazzled she probably was after that, her wedge and holed put to limit the damage to a bogey took strong character to pull off.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Rapidcat

[Titleist_PT23]

7 hours ago, OnTheBag said:

I've never been a fan of stats.  They only tell a partial story.  Each player/caddie knows exactly how far they can push each club under differing conditions.  Players can often reach deeper to find a few extra yards to cover a hazard and a golfer that is playing for $2 M will inevitably have a little extra adrenaline flowing through their veins.  

 

What I saw from Lydia in the last 2 months tells me that she's found a few extra yards across the board.  Her normal driver yardage may move to 258-260, with "5th Gear" being 270.

 

She was on her game this weekend with a lot to play for.  Don't read too much into "stats" from one tournament.  

I hear what you are saying but I don't agree with "never been a fan of stats."  We can all find examples of when they don't hold but on average they tell us something.

 

As for the last part in bold, that's exactly what I'm doing.  She's found a few (emphasis added) extra yards across the board.  5th gear when everything goes right is longer (same as everyone else).

 

My issue is that people here time after time pick the favourable data points and then draw a narrative about how she's got like a 200 mph ball speed (yes, exaggerating).

[Pastit]

2 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Cheers @JungleJimbo.

 

Having watched R4, her swing looked as it usually does. For those that don't follow Leona much, her driver balance is pretty much like what you saw, her reality is that she is trying to get every last mph of speed because she needs it, she'd be too short without it. If anyone thinks she was swinging out of her shoes, well she hit 12 of 14 fairways in R4 (256 yards ave distance for the reported stats) so it works for her.

 

However, that 2nd shot on 14 was a really poor swing, there must have been something about that shot that really spooked her. Her replayed shot wasn't that much better.

 

Considering how frazzled she probably was after that, her wedge and holed put to limit the damage to a bogey took strong character to pull off.

 Think the majority of WRX members know that the general scheme of things is that the more orthodox a swing is, the less it succumbs to the pressure of coming down the stretch. 
 

As I said above, wrong play from that lie and position as all she could achieve was to come into the green with more loft on her 3rd shot. Caddy issue probably ? Two hybrids would have been safer but she wanted to win, fortunately she got a well-deserved 2nd. 
 

The poster above got it right re a coach as I would dispute that straining like she does produce better scoring than a proper golf swing. But it’s  what we do !

Edited November 23, 2022 by Pastit

[Pastit]

9 hours ago, North Texas said:

 

Her distance declined, then went back up. That's all I said. Nothing more, nothing less.

And I simply stated the figures quoted tell you nothing. Ask anyone who plays links golf: hit a downslope with one drive and you get an extra 15-20 yards over one hitting an upslope. 

[OnTheBag]

6 hours ago, agolf1 said:

I hear what you are saying but I don't agree with "never been a fan of stats."  We can all find examples of when they don't hold but on average they tell us something.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of caddies out there that live and die by stats.  I never did.  Yardage is yardage and I had a page in my notebook with the min-max for each club and then a column for "late Sunday".  I preferred to look in my player's eyes to judge what they were capable of.  

 

But that is just me.  I looped my first pro round before stats were available.  Hell, we used to use string and a surveyor's wheel to map a course.

[Ferguson]

"I was just informed that "several to all" of my family members, including my wife Jenny, will not be attending Thanksgiving Dinner at my house.  Is this some sort of social media thing?"

 

 

[North Texas]

4 hours ago, Pastit said:

And I simply stated the figures quoted tell you nothing. Ask anyone who plays links golf: hit a downslope with one drive and you get an extra 15-20 yards over one hitting an upslope. 

 

Does it help any that I don't disagree with you?

 

[Pastit]

2 hours ago, North Texas said:

 

Here's my first post.

I don't know. It looks like to me that her distance declined from where she started and then she gained distance from where she started. 

 

Here's my second post responding to your reply to my first post.

I don't see in my post where I said anything about a 15+ yard decline. I saw stats in your post that showed her 250 in 2014, then 243 in 2018, and then 255 in 2022. It sure looks like she went down and then went back up. Declined, then gained. That's all I said. Nothing more, nothing less. 

 

BTW, you asked me to show you a 15 yard decline in the post I responded. As I noted I had never said anything about a 15 yard decline. I guess that's also neither here nor there either, is it/

 

And, finally, here's my third post that you responded to.

Her distance declined, then went back up. That's all I said. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

I'm sorry but I'm not seeing any contradiction in anything I said. 

 

Have a great day!

It’s certainly a subject where I’d be interested in learning what happened to Lydia Ko’s physique and if it affected her game. 
 

Being such a nice person and a lady, I’m loathe to comment but she seems to have thrown much weight off her leg area perhaps for non-golf reasons. This era may have coincided with coaching changes. Several top pro careers did not survive swing rebuilds after resorting to one well-known coach: Lyle and Clark for two.
 

Korean origin athletes ( KO ) are well-known however for having the lowest BMI’s within their peer groups. That appears consistent with most of the KO female golfers. Prior to the KO female golfers taking most prizes we had many top ladies having strong builds: Stuples, Davies etc.

 

So there is scope for a distance fall off and a rebuild but it may have been related to contemporaneous technique changes.
 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Pastit

[Titleist_PT23]

50 minutes ago, OnTheBag said:

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of caddies out there that live and die by stats.  I never did.  Yardage is yardage and I had a page in my notebook with the min-max for each club and then a column for "late Sunday".  I preferred to look in my player's eyes to judge what they were capable of.  

 

But that is just me.  I looped my first pro round before stats were available.  Hell, we used to use string and a surveyor's wheel to map a course.

Sure, I think we all know there are a number of factors that determine what club we hit, how far the ball flies, etc.  And I agree, every elite player has a range they can step on a club (and still have a good shot to make it work vs. hackers that just increase the probability something goes down the drain).  Lydia had this (and an extra 10-15 yards off the tee at times) when she was hitting it 24x as well.  To me, a different issue than whether she's picked up a few yards or "tons."

 

There are numerous posts over the years citing rounds or tournaments that player ABC hit it xyz yards this round/week, really getting it out there now!  Yet, come season end the player averaged 25x.  The season stats don't make any sense or the fan goggles have a warped sense of reality (based on a round where the data was good)?  I guess we can all decide...

 

Anyways, I guess we can all move on.  Appreciate your additional comments and insights.

[GwrxMod]

Topic cleaned up. 

 

While debating and discussion are fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, or purposeless inflammatory posts.

 

Cease the bickering and the "Reporting" of posts for trival matters. 

 

 

 

   

[subrew]

6 hours ago, Ferguson said:

"I was just informed that "several to all" of my family members, including my wife Jenny, will not be attending Thanksgiving Dinner at my house.  Is this some sort of social media thing?"

 

 

 

There is now a clip of this clown being interviewed by Tucker Carlson, where the topic seems to be cryptocurrency stuff.  He says the quiet part out loud, and says "when I bribed the regulator......" and then he slows down, kinda tries to correct it, but reality has set in he just said it live.  Perhaps this guy is a POS, and while it is great he has upped his sponsorship, nobody actually wants to be around him.

 

 

 

[Rapidcat]

On 11/23/2022 at 8:02 PM, Pastit said:

 Think the majority of WRX members know that the general scheme of things is that the more orthodox a swing is, the less it succumbs to the pressure of coming down the stretch. 
 

As I said above, wrong play from that lie and position as all she could achieve was to come into the green with more loft on her 3rd shot. Caddy issue probably ? Two hybrids would have been safer but she wanted to win, fortunately she got a well-deserved 2nd. 
 

The poster above got it right re a coach as I would dispute that straining like she does produce better scoring than a proper golf swing. But it’s  what we do !

 

Well you know what the pros say:

 

If you miss short or long on a shot, its your caddy's fault.

 

If you miss left or right on a shot, its your coach's fault.

 

If you thin it, the dog gets the blame.

[Ferguson]

22 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Well you know what the pros say:

 

If you miss short or long on a shot, its your caddy's fault.

 

If you miss left or right on a shot, its your coach's fault.

 

If you thin it, the dog gets the blame.

 

 

 

If you stop winning, it's probably time to call Liz. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChronicSlicer]

On 11/23/2022 at 11:31 AM, GwrxMod said:

Topic cleaned up. 

 

While debating and discussion are fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, or purposeless inflammatory posts.

 

Cease the bickering and the "Reporting" of posts for trival matters. 

 

 

 

   

I'm not being a smart@$$, but in today's society there are indeed some folks who think everything they don't agree upon is a personal attack, or insulting, negative and rude. You're job must be tiring at times...🍻

 

 

 

 

[Pastit]

On 11/23/2022 at 6:37 AM, Rapidcat said:

 

Cheers @JungleJimbo.

 

Having watched R4, her swing looked as it usually does. For those that don't follow Leona much, her driver balance is pretty much like what you saw, her reality is that she is trying to get every last mph of speed because she needs it, she'd be too short without it. If anyone thinks she was swinging out of her shoes, well she hit 12 of 14 fairways in R4 (256 yards ave distance for the reported stats) so it works for her.

 

However, that 2nd shot on 14 was a really poor swing, there must have been something about that shot that really spooked her. Her replayed shot wasn't that much better.

 

Considering how frazzled she probably was after that, her wedge and holed put to limit the damage to a bogey took strong character to pull off.

Just going back to this driver length and balance, or lack of both.

 

I saw a couple of holes this afternoon from Spain but I was a bit in-and-out of the room. Coverage of Leona ( LM ) in the LET Finale. It looked like Leona was grouped with the new Swedish superstar, Linn Grant ( LG ), or one group in front maybe.

 

There are 2 par 5’s c 16th and 17th, probably c 490+ yds. LG hit a driver and rescue to both and was pin high in 2 on the greens, effortless swings, relatively anyway. 
 

LM was way shorter with the driver and has the same collapse of her finish as in the States the other day. She hit a 3 wood  and was straining with that, finishing well short of the pin, off the green. The commentator, Sophie Walker, said LM was hitting driver 240yds only and had to add 10yds recently to compete. I saw one iron shot where she was perfectly balanced. 
 

I noticed LM in the States was really loading up her driver shaft. Surprising for me but it may be a light shaft, I’ll have to look it up. 

[Rapidcat]

On 11/26/2022 at 5:42 AM, Pastit said:

Just going back to this driver length and balance, or lack of both.

 

I saw a couple of holes this afternoon from Spain but I was a bit in-and-out of the room. Coverage of Leona ( LM ) in the LET Finale. It looked like Leona was grouped with the new Swedish superstar, Linn Grant ( LG ), or one group in front maybe.

 

There are 2 par 5’s c 16th and 17th, probably c 490+ yds. LG hit a driver and rescue to both and was pin high in 2 on the greens, effortless swings, relatively anyway. 
 

LM was way shorter with the driver and has the same collapse of her finish as in the States the other day. She hit a 3 wood  and was straining with that, finishing well short of the pin, off the green. The commentator, Sophie Walker, said LM was hitting driver 240yds only and had to add 10yds recently to compete. I saw one iron shot where she was perfectly balanced. 
 

I noticed LM in the States was really loading up her driver shaft. Surprising for me but it may be a light shaft, I’ll have to look it up. 

 

A few insights on your above comments:

 

LM was way shorter with the driver and has the same collapse of her finish as in the States the other day.

She's been swinging that way for years, it's nothing recent. It's not some sort of fault that's crept into her game over the last few months. As I've mentioned before, she hits hard against a solid and stable left side and is balanced at impact, where it counts.

 

As you noted, when she hits her irons (and hybrids) where she's not trying to maximise distance, she finishes balanced. Driver and 3 wood are where you see the balance issue.

 

Her driver

For LPGA 2020 season, Leona averaged 242 yards in driving distance and ranked 120 in this category. Seeking increased distance, she changed driver heads (from a Ping 400 max to a 425 LST as I recall), upped her gym regime and ended the 2021 season with a 255 yards driving distance and 85th in category ranking. Combined with some other equipment tweaks, we saw her game increase in competitiveness, lots more top 10's and that Solheim cup performance. 

 

This continued into the 2022 season when she won the Drive On event early whilst averaging 273 yards with 35/42 fairways hit in that event.

 

Her form waned a little after that for a few events, her driving got hooky deploying that 'slinging' distance swing (as per @ThinkingPlus's explanation about how women pros chase distance with their swings). She recovered her driving eventually, maybe even throttling back just a touch and finished the season with a 250 yard driving distance and drop in driving distance ranking to 124. We can see how well she's finishing the season at the CME and now the Spanish Open.

 

The above is why I made the comment in here previously that she is a 240 yard 'natural' swing trying to get to 260 yards and ending up at 250 yards.

 

It will be an issue for her due to her uber-connected swing (great for accuracy, not so much for distance) but she's a clever golfer so I expect she will find a way to stay 250 yards+.

 

As an aside, she gets lots of coverage in the Irish media so this info is readily available, gives great insight to what's going on with her golf.

 

[fredogolfer]

On 11/19/2022 at 10:21 PM, RainShadow said:

I haven't been too impressed with the new leadership of the LPGA so far.....       Wahn did a lot for the tour, and the new CEO hasn't capitalized on any of it.

Yeah, kind of makes you wonder about her hiring committee. 

[fredogolfer]

On 11/20/2022 at 8:44 AM, Rapidcat said:

I don't understand how Mollie's professional experience has her anywhere near qualified to succeed in her LPGA role.

Agreed, she ran the athletic department at a school where athletics isn’t really the top draw. It’s not like she got there and suddenly athletics became a priority. 
 

she also ran a chain of gyms right?

 

I really hope it doesn’t come off as attacking a woman because she’s a woman. I never thought she was a good choice albeit I don’t know who all applied. Suzy Whaley was being talked up a lot until she said she wasn’t interested. 
 

We also have to remember Whan had his misses. Evian dates, the founders cup could have been a real flop if it hadn’t succeeded. 

 

 

[Rapidcat]

51 minutes ago, fredogolfer said:

Agreed, she ran the athletic department at a school where athletics isn’t really the top draw. It’s not like she got there and suddenly athletics became a priority. 
 

she also ran a chain of gyms right?

 

I really hope it doesn’t come off as attacking a woman because she’s a woman. I never thought she was a good choice albeit I don’t know who all applied. Suzy Whaley was being talked up a lot until she said she wasn’t interested. 
 

We also have to remember Whan had his misses. Evian dates, the founders cup could have been a real flop if it hadn’t succeeded. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I scratched my head when I researched her bio.

 

The CME dinner fiasco could just be a one off error which may not have any repercussions if the sponsor can be made happy or it could be a sign of a deeper malaise.

 

Time will tell.

[Seamus_McDuff]

Today I ran into our club member who played in the pro-am and attended the dinner. She said her Pro was invited to the dinner but informed the LPGA she wouldn’t attend. The Pro said she originally was going to skip the Keith Urban concert night because she didn’t want to be out three nights in a row but skipped the Tuesday dinner instead after Serena canceled. She also said it was very awkward when Duffy realized no players were there. 

[Pastit]

6 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

A few insights on your above comments:

 

LM was way shorter with the driver and has the same collapse of her finish as in the States the other day.

She's been swinging that way for years, it's nothing recent. It's not some sort of fault that's crept into her game over the last few months. As I've mentioned before, she hits hard against a solid and stable left side and is balanced at impact, where it counts.

 

As you noted, when she hits her irons (and hybrids) where she's not trying to maximise distance, she finishes balanced. Driver and 3 wood are where you see the balance issue.

 

Her driver

For LPGA 2020 season, Leona averaged 242 yards in driving distance and ranked 120 in this category. Seeking increased distance, she changed driver heads (from a Ping 400 max to a 425 LST as I recall), upped her gym regime and ended the 2021 season with a 255 yards driving distance and 85th in category ranking. Combined with some other equipment tweaks, we saw her game increase in competitiveness, lots more top 10's and that Solheim cup performance. 

 

This continued into the 2022 season when she won the Drive On event early whilst averaging 273 yards with 35/42 fairways hit in that event.

 

Her form waned a little after that for a few events, her driving got hooky deploying that 'slinging' distance swing (as per @ThinkingPlus's explanation about how women pros chase distance with their swings). She recovered her driving eventually, maybe even throttling back just a touch and finished the season with a 250 yard driving distance and drop in driving distance ranking to 124. We can see how well she's finishing the season at the CME and now the Spanish Open.

 

The above is why I made the comment in here previously that she is a 240 yard 'natural' swing trying to get to 260 yards and ending up at 250 yards.

 

It will be an issue for her due to her uber-connected swing (great for accuracy, not so much for distance) but she's a clever golfer so I expect she will find a way to stay 250 yards+.

 

As an aside, she gets lots of coverage in the Irish media so this info is readily available, gives great insight to what's going on with her golf.

 

Yes, she’s a fine example of we pigmies coping with giants, I’m 5’ 9” and shrinking. But my driving distance was always way better than my height would suggest and I throttled back to control a persistent baby fade with my Tony Penna. To the extent I’ve been accused of playing boring golf by the lashers when they shout at me out of the bushes. 
 

I didn’t see the other post until I’d written that above. These 2 new Swedish girls on the block might wake up the LPGA next year I suspect. 

[Rapidcat]

7 hours ago, Pastit said:

Yes, she’s a fine example of we pigmies coping with giants, I’m 5’ 9” and shrinking. But my driving distance was always way better than my height would suggest and I throttled back to control a persistent baby fade with my Tony Penna. To the extent I’ve been accused of playing boring golf by the lashers when they shout at me out of the bushes. 
 

I didn’t see the other post until I’d written that above. These 2 new Swedish girls on the block might wake up the LPGA next year I suspect. 

 

Yep, can relate to your comments - I'm 5' 10' (yes really) and always a longer hitter than my size (proper sequencing as we know) but unlike you, with a draw.

 

Aussies love an underdog and Leona wins battles against bigger opponents.

 

Linn and Maja are both potential top 10 world players, both not far off now.

 

How good is the LPGA going to be next season? Just keeps getting better. Can't wait!

[Pastit]

1 hour ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Yep, can relate to your comments - I'm 5' 10' (yes really) and always a longer hitter than my size (proper sequencing as we know) but unlike you, with a draw.

 

Aussies love an underdog and Leona wins battles against bigger opponents.

 

Linn and Maja are both potential top 10 world players, both not far off now.

 

How good is the LPGA going to be next season? Just keeps getting better. Can't wait!

I came halfway into a statement by the presenters in Spain and one may have said that Linn Grant may not play on the LPGA due to Solheim Cup qualifaction issues. 
 

The finishing holes today and the playoff rather demonstrated the importance of length at the par 5’s. Looks like the Rory syndrome has caught on in the ladies game. Great finish today. Yes, will Lydia be able to fight them off ?

On 11/17/2022 at 11:39 AM, North Butte said:

Little known fact. Over 86% of Pro V1x players on Tour switch to a Pinnacle on Par 5's playing into the wind.