Tour LPGA Guaranteed Money?

[Hacker76]

Now with the PGA/DP/LIV all offering guaranteed money is it about time the LPGA did the same?

Interesting article talking about the whole money thing on LPGA. Thoughts?

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/13/golf-lpga-tour-prize-money-payouts-problems-solutions/

[Rapidcat]

52 minutes ago, Hacker76 said:

Now with the PGA/DP/LIV all offering guaranteed money is it about time the LPGA did the same?

Interesting article talking about the whole money thing on LPGA. Thoughts?

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/13/golf-lpga-tour-prize-money-payouts-problems-solutions/

Some players are asking, should the winners make less?

No to the above question from the article. 

 

Succinct but to the point.

 

[ThinkingPlus]

Because the LPGA doesn't have a pot of money sitting around to fund the initiative then purses would need to be reallocated from the winners to the MCs as @Rapidcatmentions.  Less meritocratic, but given that last place money in an LPGA tournament may not cover expenses for the week, it seems like an appropriate reallocation of prize money.  If keeping your card doesn't allow you to make a living something needs to be fixed. Probably the only situation where I see a less meritocratic approach being appropriate. 

[Rapidcat]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Because the LPGA doesn't have a pot of money sitting around to fund the initiative then purses would need to be reallocated from the winners to the MCs as @Rapidcatmentions.  Less meritocratic, but given that last place money in an LPGA tournament may not cover expenses for the week, it seems like an appropriate reallocation of prize money.  If keeping your card doesn't allow you to make a living something needs to be fixed. Probably the only situation where I see a less meritocratic approach being appropriate. 

Actually, looks like I didn't make myself clear by being too succinct - I don't think there should be a reallocation, I think it should stay as is.

 

It's up to Molly and team to continue to grow purses to eliminate this issue over the coming years.

 

$300,000 for Nelly's win at the Pelican isn't an amazing amount for a win, a T10 got only $38,377, not really enough for decent performance.

 

New talent will always come through chasing the dream so I don't see a TOUR sustainability issue on this point.

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, Rapidcat said:

Actually, looks like I didn't make myself clear by being too succinct - I don't think there should be a reallocation, I think it should stay as is.

 

It's up to Molly and team to continue to grow purses to eliminate this issue over the coming years.

 

$300,000 for Nelly's win at the Pelican isn't an amazing amount for a win, a T10 got only $38,377, not really enough for decent performance.

 

New talent will always come through chasing the dream so I don't see a TOUR sustainability issue on this point.

Didn't mean to imply you supported the initiative just that you referenced the article and discussion within the LPGA.  Meritocracy is what makes professional golf different from most other professional sports, but I do think that sustainability is an issue.  Feeder tours should be the filter that determines good enough or not and shouldn't allow a player to make a living.  True stepping stones.

 

However, not being able to pay the bills as one of the 100 or 150 best golfers on the planet seems a bit egregious.   In the LPGA's case there just isn't enough money period.  That is slowly changing and maybe this issue will be moot 5 years from now, but very tough sledding for the bottom of the tour right now.

[Hacker76]

 

It's such a huge difference in money between the men and women and wondering if there is something the PGA can do financially that at least keeps the bottom of the LPGA players able to make a living?
I'm thinking about how the PGA just gave a billionaire $40M for PIP. That $40M would've gone a long way on the LPGA. 
I think the bigger problem is the LPGA is more of a global tour and travel costs really eat into their money. 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

I don't know the profit margin of the LPGA.  But as a businessman, I wouldn't invest marketing or advertising budget in LPGA sponsorship, based on the galleries I've seen, and viewership.  I recognize the costs associated with staff that travel extensively; travel costs and their compensation is offset by the combined revenue they generate. 

 

There's also this: When an employee can't pay their bills with the amount of money they make, they have two choices; adjust their cost of living down to stay, or develop skills that may merit greater income employed elsewhere.  In a P&L world, we can't pay employees more than their value contributes to the P&L. 

 

LPGA golf does NOT deserve equal purses compared to WTA; they don't have the same revenue or audience recognition as Women's Tennis Assoc.  Outside the term professional, one does NOT equal the other.  

Edited November 15, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[Argonne69]

I'm really torn on the issue. On the one hand, professional golf is fairly unique in that there are no guaranteed paychecks. Making the cut drives most players to put their best effort into it on Thursday and Friday. You don't think a guaranteed paycheck would change things? 

 

Of course, a player who retains her card, and yet fails to break even for the year after expenses is not good. Sure, play better and cover the costs, but there will always be players ranked 61 - 100 that struggle to pay the bills. Given that there will always be a supply of up and coming players willing to risk it, I can see why things will prob not change. Why pony up cash when there are hundreds of players willing to step in for a chance. 

 

Haven't done the math, but if the winner's share was reduced 10 percent, would it really make a difference? Take $30k from the winner's check, and it doesn't go a long way in covering the expenses for the 50 players who missed the cut. Add 10 percent from the top 10, and it's more or less the same. 

 

Women's professional golf is a tough racket. The top 20 will earn $1 million plus, and much more with endorsements, but the bottom 10 percent will break even after expenses. 

 

[ChronicSlicer]

One option, Olson believes, is to change the purse distribution. Currently, the winner at most LPGA events receives 15 percent of the purse. After that, six percent of the purse goes toward the tour’s operational costs.

That leaves 79 percent for everyone else who makes the cut. (The U.S. Women’s Open gave 18 percent of the winner and CME will give the winner roughly 29 percent.)

“I think we have to go down to 12 percent,” said Olson, “or take from that top 10 and be able to feed that into the bottom ranks."

 

 

I have a better solution, work harder Amy. 

 

[Argonne69]

What's missing from the discussion is a breakdown of expenses for a year. Travel, lodging, food, coach, support staff, clothing and equipment (assuming no sponsorship), and caddie. The 100th player in CME points made $164,798 in 17 events this season. After expenses, what was her take home pay? She missed nine cuts. Would $1000 or $2000 for a missed cut make a big difference? Does making $173k change anything significantly? 

 

[ChronicSlicer]

8 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

What's missing from the discussion is a breakdown of expenses for a year. Travel, lodging, food, coach, support staff, clothing and equipment (assuming no sponsorship), and caddie. The 100th player in CME points made $164,798 in 17 events this season. After expenses, what was her take home pay? She missed nine cuts. Would $1000 or $2000 for a missed cut make a big difference? Does making $173k change anything significantly? 

 

From the USA Today linked article

 

As the nation struggles with inflation, women who live most of their year on the road are taking a significant hit. Dana Finkelstein said a plane ticket from Phoenix to Tampa that used to run $170 is now $370. She looked into flights on Tuesday, in case the Pelican moved to a Monday finish, and they were running $560. A weekly rental car that used to run $200 is now more than $300. She estimates most players who stay in a hotel – Finkelstein relies on host housing – have at least $3,000 a week in expenses after paying their caddie.

“And that’s on the cheap side,” she said.

Caroline Inglis, who currently ranks 99th on the CME points list and 98th on the money list ($164,798) estimates that she has spent six figures on her team and travel through 16 events.

 

Stephanie Meadow says her expenses for the year typically range between $115,000 to $125,000, including what it costs to pay her team. That’s staying in average hotels and with a couple of host families.

[fredogolfer]

3 hours ago, ChronicSlicer said:

One option, Olson believes, is to change the purse distribution. Currently, the winner at most LPGA events receives 15 percent of the purse. After that, six percent of the purse goes toward the tour’s operational costs.

That leaves 79 percent for everyone else who makes the cut. (The U.S. Women’s Open gave 18 percent of the winner and CME will give the winner roughly 29 percent.)

“I think we have to go down to 12 percent,” said Olson, “or take from that top 10 and be able to feed that into the bottom ranks."

 

 

I have a better solution, work harder Amy. 

 

I’m surprised that with Amy’s general worldview she has this pretty socialist belief.

[OnTheBag]

I've read this thread earlier but was waiting to comment till the right time.  Unfortunately, I've been in and out of doctor's offices all day and am too tired to be witty.

 

No one below the Top 25 is paying all their bills from tournament earnings.  The biggest issue at hand has always been exposure.  Exposure brings in the money and as long as TV rights preempt LPGA coverage any time a PGA event is concurrent, then the LPGA will struggle financially.  

 

The L has all the necessary assets for a great marketing campaign.  The first step is a TV contract external of the PGA.  I hope Mollie can figure it out soon.  

 

If I feel better tomorrow, I'll expound on this a bit more.  

[Rapidcat]

1 hour ago, fredogolfer said:

I’m surprised that with Amy’s general worldview she has this pretty socialist belief.

Her circumstances are different now she is 111 on the money list & 109 on the CME list.

 

Funny how a change in personal circumstances changes people's opinions.

 

Who would have thunk it huh?

[Titleist_PT23]

I long ago said (in response to "they deserve more" threads/comments) the options are a) get more money coming in the door or b) redistribute the winnings.  b) is a decision for the tour and players to make among themselves; it is not surprising to see some for it and some against it (and generally, but not always, related to one's current earning potential on tour).

 

There's nothing that says a Top 100 (or whatever) player deserves to make enough to pay all of their bills.  It's really no different than any everyday person (of various professions) that goes to a global city (NYC, LA, London, Shanghai) and breaks even or burns money because the opportunity is worth it and they hope tomorrow is better.

 

I guess everyone wants to pay the UC graduate workers more because they deserve it too?  LOL LOL LOL.  How much they spent or how qualified they are (or think they are) is irrelevant (same for the LPGA players); whatever your skills are worth is what you get paid.

 

People need to separate their admiration for the players/this specific game and the underlying issue at hand; I'd bet a lot most will say otherwise if you change the job/profession to something no one feels attached to.

[Titleist_PT23]

Option A:

-Last place gets $1.00.

-Second to last place gets $2.00

....

-Runner up gets $79.00 (assuming a weekend field of 80 players)

-Winner gets the balance

 

Option B:

-Winner gets $79.00 more than last place (assuming a weekend field of 80 players)

 

Option 😄

-Everyone gets $5k - $10k (pay bills and earn "something") and the winner gets the balance.

 

Option 😧

-Tweak the percentages slightly from where they are currently at to pretend to be doing something.  Most likely, this will just shift the "break point" as to what ranking player is in the black or in the red.  We can argue whether its Top 150, Top 100, Top 50, Top 20, etc; any of these are as arbitrary as the other.

[Hacker76]

With LPGA money woes I could see the Saudi's expanding Aramco and basically pulling a LIV move and just buying top/mediocre talent. 

I don't think there is enough tradition, legacy and loyalty like on the men's side to keep the women loyal to LPGA/LET. 

 

Aramco is expanding the purse next year to $5 million so should get interesting.
 

You know Olson wanted to point this all out but in today's climate it was best she didn't, but you know she's thinking it. 

[OnTheBag]

On 11/16/2022 at 1:58 AM, agolf1 said:

Option A:

-Last place gets $1.00.

-Second to last place gets $2.00

....

-Runner up gets $79.00 (assuming a weekend field of 80 players)

-Winner gets the balance

 

Option B:

-Winner gets $79.00 more than last place (assuming a weekend field of 80 players)

 

Option 😄

-Everyone gets $5k - $10k (pay bills and earn "something") and the winner gets the balance.

 

Option 😧

-Tweak the percentages slightly from where they are currently at to pretend to be doing something.  Most likely, this will just shift the "break point" as to what ranking player is in the black or in the red.  We can argue whether its Top 150, Top 100, Top 50, Top 20, etc; any of these are as arbitrary as the other.

Another option that was floated around in the late 80's when purses were abysmal.........

 

Top 10 payout follows the current format.  Payout for 11-60 is a more equitable spread.  All MC get a basic stipend to help mitigate costs. 

 

A couple of things any policy change would want to avoid:

1.  Never reward bad performance.  However, you have to recognize how crazy expensive the tour is for 98% of the participants on a yearly basis. 

 

2.  Make sure you reward those who are "putting in the work" while also acknowledging that luck sometimes comes into play. 

 

My suggestion........

 

1.  Come up with a realistic but manageable number that all players are guaranteed for completing 2/4 rounds.  This may be $1500 +/- but will offset much of the burden. 

 

2.  Schedule more effectively to cut down on some of the travel.  Group tourneys together geographically (Florida/West Coast/etc...)  

 

3.  Fix that horrific TV rights agreement, even if it means breaking ranks with the PGA.  Lifetime Network, USA, hell even Hallmark would love a shot at a female focused sporting event.  Time to think outside the box.

 

4.  Develop a tour-wide marketing strategy that makes the stars a household name.  Jane Blalock made a lot of money doing commercials for household goods.  The same could be done now based around fashion, cars, etc...

[ChronicSlicer]

8 hours ago, OnTheBag said:

3.  Fix that horrific TV rights agreement, even if it means breaking ranks with the PGA.  Lifetime Network, USA, hell even Hallmark would love a shot at a female focused sporting event.  Time to think outside the box.

 

 

Lifetime and Hallmark...are you sure people actually watch those channels or even know they exist 😂

[ThinkingPlus]

41 minutes ago, ChronicSlicer said:

Lifetime and Hallmark...are you sure people actually watch those channels or even know they exist 😂

Our family spends a good portion of the holidays watching Hallmark. So yes, people do watch those channels.

[Golf Dino]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Our family spends a good portion of the holidays watching Hallmark. So yes, people do watch those channels.

 

Exactly!   I was thinking maybe Christmas with the Korda's, or a 30 minute special on meeting Lydia Ko in New Zealand, or Minjee Lee in Perth or better yet, amongst the vineyards of Barossa Valley!  Or maybe exploring Bangkok with Atthaya and Pajaree!  Just something a little more human interest to introduce the audience to some of the players  🙂

[Rapidcat]

8 hours ago, Golf Dino said:

 

Exactly!   I was thinking maybe Christmas with the Korda's, or a 30 minute special on meeting Lydia Ko in New Zealand, or Minjee Lee in Perth or better yet, amongst the vineyards of Barossa Valley!  Or maybe exploring Bangkok with Atthaya and Pajaree!  Just something a little more human interest to introduce the audience to some of the players  🙂

Excellent...Kristmas with the Kordas & the Ko's featuring Kris Kringle😂

 

"What do you want for Xmas, Nelly?" 5 majors please, Kris".

 

Jessica..."um, hang on a minute".

 

BTW @Golf Dino, great coastal vineyards 3 hours drive south of Perth - Margaret River:

 

Apologies for my indulgence but it is so lovely and the wines are terrific (as is the surfing).

 

Minjee, Hannah & Su have a lot of fun on their doorstep.

[North Texas]

12 hours ago, ChronicSlicer said:

Lifetime and Hallmark...are you sure people actually watch those channels or even know they exist 😂

 

We proabably would all be surprised how many people watch those channels. 

[ChronicSlicer]

18 hours ago, Golf Dino said:

 Just something a little more human interest to introduce the audience to some of the players  🙂

Am I imagining it or was Golf Channel supposedly going to do something similar to this idea a few years back?

[Lobby]

1st place cme was $2 mil

2nd place was $550k

 

seems like a huge spread. 

 

afterall, where is it written that 1st place gets 4x 2nd?

[JungleJimbo]

On 11/19/2022 at 7:29 AM, ChronicSlicer said:

Am I imagining it or was Golf Channel supposedly going to do something similar to this idea a few years back?

Not sure about Golf channel. But there was that “LPGA All-Access” documentary covering the 2021 CME Tour championship 

 

https://www.lpga.com/news/2022/lpga-all-access-cme-group-tour-championship-behind-the-scenes-documentary-to-debut-on-lpga-platforms

 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by JungleJimbo

[ChronicSlicer]

57 minutes ago, JungleJimbo said:

Not sure about Golf channel. But there was that “LPGA All-Access” documentary covering the 2021 CME Tour championship 

 

https://www.lpga.com/news/2022/lpga-all-access-cme-group-tour-championship-behind-the-scenes-documentary-to-debut-on-lpga-platforms

 

 

Thanks Jimbo, but that's not it.