Remove the flagstick when off the green?

[caniac6]

Most of the guys I play with take it out inside of 15’. Some guys like it in, so we put it back in for them. It’s no big deal, and it really doesn’t take that much time or effort.

[Mr. Bean]

53 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

But if one is a "back of the cup" kinda guy, I can see leaving that pin in being a fear factor. I guess I can see hitting either side of the pin, with a firmly hit putt, kicking the ball out rather than helping to keep it in. Hmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

 

You got it. That is exactly what the Molinari study reveals.

[Augster]

22 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

As mentioned earlier, IMO, one is FAR more likely to remember the ones that come out than the ones that stay in. But you know, your post brought to mind something I confess I haven't given all that much thought to.

 

Perhaps the putting style of the player has something to do with it.

 

Are you a "back of the cup" guy ? Or a "front lip" guy ?

 

I'm actually a somewhat "cautious" putter, which I think the majority of us are. I think the psychology (fear ? ) of seeing the ball rolling away from the hole, causes cautious putters, like myself, to be a front lip kinda guy.

 

I'm actually trying, and finding a little success, in hitting those shorter putts a bit firmer, and I feel the pin being in helps/allows me to do that, because, for me, I can "straighten" out the putt and hit it a bit harder..

 

But if one is a "back of the cup" kinda guy, I can see leaving that pin in being a fear factor. I guess I can see hitting either side of the pin, with a firmly hit putt, kicking the ball out rather than helping to keep it in. Hmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

Speed of the greens is the biggest factor. This year our greens were incredibly fast. Your level. Country club level. 
 

When the greens are fast, one has to putt “softly”. For the guys that always leave it in, I saw way less missed putts off the stick as the ball just isn’t going as fast at the cup because the greens are so fast. 
 

With fast greens there is way more incentive to die it in. Nobody wants to continuously face 4-foot comebackers. 
 

The one putt I missed this year I was just trying to spank it off the stick and in. It was about an 18-inch straight in putt up the hill. The “middle” of the ball hit the “middle” of the stick and still caromed out. 
 

In reality, there is no way possible to take a round ball, with dimples, and hit a round stick completely squarely. So there is always some deflection built in. 
 

Speed at the hole is the biggest factor to missing off the stick. A little too much speed, add in a subtle break, and it’s disaster waiting to happen. 

[jholz]

I've always looked at this as a largely mental thing.

 

I grew up playing tournament golf where the flagstick needed to be removed. As a result, in practice, I'd always take the stick out of the cup. On the course, because I was used to it and practiced it, I always wanted the flag removed. I'd much rather putt to an "empty" cup.

 

But, with the rule change (and knowing human nature - lazy, stupid) I knew that the vast majority of players - particularly at the muni's I play - would default to leaving the flag in.

 

So, I dedicated myself to putting with the damn stick in the hole.

 

After a couple of years, and from my own personal experience, I'd say it's a wash. The stick probably helped as much as it hurt, and overall I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference.

 

Having said all that, I wish they had not changed the rule.

 

 

[North Butte]

3 hours ago, jholz said:

I've always looked at this as a largely mental thing.

 

I grew up playing tournament golf where the flagstick needed to be removed. As a result, in practice, I'd always take the stick out of the cup. On the course, because I was used to it and practiced it, I always wanted the flag removed. I'd much rather putt to an "empty" cup.

 

But, with the rule change (and knowing human nature - lazy, stupid) I knew that the vast majority of players - particularly at the muni's I play - would default to leaving the flag in.

 

So, I dedicated myself to putting with the damn stick in the hole.

 

After a couple of years, and from my own personal experience, I'd say it's a wash. The stick probably helped as much as it hurt, and overall I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference.

 

Having said all that, I wish they had not changed the rule.

 

 

I agree that is doesn't matter on balance, even if people think they can play in or out games to gain some miniscule advantage it's still at best some teensy fraction of a stroke per round. I guess they're hoping to take advantage of when to leave it and when to pull it and whittle their handicap down from 12.7 to 12.4 or something. 

 

But I am happy as can be they changed the rule. It was one of the early baby steps toward making the Rules of Golf more realistic and less arbitrary. They've continued that process with some of the procedures when a ball move inadvertently and so on.

 

And of course the mostly completely ignored admonition to not post solo rounds was another entirely rational change even if it bugs the heck out of millions of golfers and never had any chance of being widely followed. 

 

Over my entire golfing life I've played close to half my rounds solo and never, ever pulled a flag when playing along. So I think I can speak from the considerable experience of couple thousand rounds leaving it in when I say it probably keeps a ball in the hole that otherwise would have missed about once every 10 rounds and it probably deflects a ball out that otherwise would have been in even less than that (one in 20? one in 50?). 

[Halebopp]

12 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I agree that is doesn't matter on balance, even if people think they can play in or out games to gain some miniscule advantage it's still at best some teensy fraction of a stroke per round. I guess they're hoping to take advantage of when to leave it and when to pull it and whittle their handicap down from 12.7 to 12.4 or something. 

 

But I am happy as can be they changed the rule. It was one of the early baby steps toward making the Rules of Golf more realistic and less arbitrary. They've continued that process with some of the procedures when a ball move inadvertently and so on.

 

And of course the mostly completely ignored admonition to not post solo rounds was another entirely rational change even if it bugs the heck out of millions of golfers and never had any chance of being widely followed. 

 

Over my entire golfing life I've played close to half my rounds solo and never, ever pulled a flag when playing along. So I think I can speak from the considerable experience of couple thousand rounds leaving it in when I say it probably keeps a ball in the hole that otherwise would have missed about once every 10 rounds and it probably deflects a ball out that otherwise would have been in even less than that (one in 20? one in 50?). 

 

I had good putts deflected out on maybe every two out of three rounds during the first Covid spring when we were forced to keep the flagstick in the hole.

 

Subsequently I started to aim for the edges to avoid the flagstick or die the ball by the hole and miss even more putts. Slow greens, habit of putting to the back of the cup and thick flagsticks aren't a good combination.

[North Butte]

13 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

I had good putts deflected out on maybe every two out of three rounds during the first Covid spring when we were forced to keep the flagstick in the hole.

 

Subsequently I started to aim for the edges to avoid the flagstick or die the ball by the hole and miss even more putts. Slow greens, habit of putting to the back of the cup and thick flagsticks aren't a good combination.

Yeah, that's gotta be the old-school chunky flagsticks. I remember the public course I learned to play on back in the 90's had these sticks that you just couldn't leave in at all. There was like exactly one ball width of room around the stick. I think they were fiberglass instead of metal and tended to get splinters when they got old and beat up.

[jholz]

28 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

I had good putts deflected out on maybe every two out of three rounds during the first Covid spring when we were forced to keep the flagstick in the hole.

 

Subsequently I started to aim for the edges to avoid the flagstick or die the ball by the hole and miss even more putts. Slow greens, habit of putting to the back of the cup and thick flagsticks aren't a good combination.

 

Agh. Right. I've noticed that tendency of aiming for the edge myself. Soooooooo many lip outs over the past two years. Tough to get over the bugaboo.

[North Butte]

If you're deliberately aiming at an edge instead of the spot on the cup where the ball needs to enter, that's simply a mental error. Not sure I'd call it "crazy" but it's certainly wasting strokes for no rational reason.

 

If a flagstick is so fat that it literally kicks putts out of the cup every round or two just pull the darned thing out before you putt. Otherwise, if it's a normal flatstick that leaves plenty room for a putt to drop ust ignore the stick and try to give the putt its best chance of being made. 

 

Back in March or April of this year I came thiiiiiis close to starting to pull the flag. I had two putts hit the stick and not go in on back to back holes. Now the first one was hit a little too hard so that was probably my bad. But the second one looked like perfect pace and it entered the cup dead center and just bounced straight backwards and out.

 

But I thought back and it had been many months since the last time that happened. And I payed attention for the next several rounds without it happening again. So I finally realized, when you play golf 4-5 times a week then even something which happens once every few hundred putts is sometimes going to happen two or three times in quick succession. 

 

I'm trying to remember now and I don't think I've had that happen again in the eight months since those back-to-back greens. Freaky but random. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by North Butte

[ThinkingPlus]

My approach is pretty simple. Any putts where I feel like I have good control of speed, then the flag is pulled.  Any putt where I don't feel like I have good speed control or can't comfortably see the cup, I leave the flag in.

[Newby]

16 hours ago, North Butte said:

But the second one looked like perfect pace and it entered the cup dead center and just bounced straight backwards and out.

Depending on the COR between the flagstick and the ball, If it bounced out so it finished 2" from the hole it was possibly going fast enough to run over the hole if the flagstick wasn't there.

[Mr. Bean]

13 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

My approach is pretty simple. Any putts where I feel like I have good control of speed, then the flag is pulled.  Any putt where I don't feel like I have good speed control or can't comfortably see the cup, I leave the flag in.

 

I'm with you.

[Mr. Bean]

20 minutes ago, Newby said:

Depending on the COR between the flagstick and the ball, If it bounced out so it finished 2" from the hole it was possibly going fast enough to run over the hole if the flagstick wasn't there.

 

Now THAT is far from a scientific study 😂

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Now THAT is far from a scientific study 😂

Indeed. But my impression is that many/most posters/players simply do what they feel is right/best at the time. Just as scientific 😉

[North Butte]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

Indeed. But my impression is that many/most posters/players simply do what they feel is right/best at the time. Just as scientific 😉

That was kind of the point of my rambling anecdote. What it felt like at the time was, "OMG, these flagsticks are killing me". The reality was, that was two putts out of my last few hundred. And they may or may not have even been holed if the stick weren't there.

 

Funny how people find it easier to remember the ones that hit the stick and stay out than the ones that hit the stick and drop.

[Newby]

57 minutes ago, North Butte said:

That was kind of the point of my rambling anecdote. What it felt like at the time was, "OMG, these flagsticks are killing me". The reality was, that was two putts out of my last few hundred. And they may or may not have even been holed if the stick weren't there.

 

Funny how people find it easier to remember the ones that hit the stick and stay out than the ones that hit the stick and drop.

You always pay more attention to bad news or bad outcomes. So you won't do it again.

Similar to why all the headlines are about bad news. It draws more attention (and sells more newspapers). 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Newby

[Colin L]

A report of my putting would sell loads of newspapers, then.

[davep043]

On 12/1/2022 at 9:26 PM, ThinkingPlus said:

My approach is pretty simple. Any putts where I feel like I have good control of speed, then the flag is pulled.  Any putt where I don't feel like I have good speed control or can't comfortably see the cup, I leave the flag in.

My thoughts exactly.  For a putt going too fast, the flagstick can only help, at least keeping a ball closer to the hole.  For a putt with correct speed, the stick can only hurt.

Edited December 3, 2022 by davep043

[Ri_Redneck]

On 11/26/2022 at 9:37 PM, rainkingjr said:

No one said anything about rule changes regarding a ball not on the green. I was simply alluding to the fact that now that the pin can be left in with the ball on the green, some folks will expect everyone to do so and get annoyed when one chooses to do otherwise. That seems to be what the OP is doing.

If THAT annoys them while playing golf, they need to take up another hobby! Like maybe shopping?!?!

 

BT

[st1800e]

On 12/1/2022 at 11:33 AM, jholz said:

I've always looked at this as a largely mental thing.

Yep