Need forgiveness, but not draw help

[Vater]

I need forgiveness with my driver, but anti-slice help is not what I need.

 

Will I give up a lot of forgiveness going for the "regular" models instead of the "draw/max" models?

 

Specifically asking for your experiences with the LTDx vs. LTDx Max, but also curious across other drivers that are doing the same thing with the draw/max versions.

[MattM97]

Most brands these days have an overall forgiving model, a draw model and a low spin model. So if you don't need that anti slice just go for the forgiving model like a G430 Max, LTDx, Stealth, Rogue ST Max, etc, etc.

[North Butte]

You want a model with the deepest, lowest CG and highest MOI you can find and that doesn't claim any draw bias.

 

Any sort of serious draw-bias weighting (as opposed to simply a closed face and upright lie) will actually be less forgiving than a max-forgiveness low/back CG model. So max-forgiveness and max-draw-bias will never be found in the same model. 

[Vater]

44 minutes ago, North Butte said:

You want a model with the deepest, lowest CG and highest MOI you can find and that doesn't claim any draw bias.

 

Any sort of serious draw-bias weighting (as opposed to simply a closed face and upright lie) will actually be less forgiving than a max-forgiveness low/back CG model. So max-forgiveness and max-draw-bias will never be found in the same model. 

This makes sense to me and I appreciate the way you’ve stated it. 
 

I think I conflated things because everyone characterizes the LTDx Max as the most forgiving model while it clearly is the draw biased one. 

 

By your explanation, what I need is the LTDx. 

[North Butte]

5 minutes ago, Vater said:

This makes sense to me and I appreciate the way you’ve stated it. 
 

I think I conflated things because everyone characterizes the LTDx Max as the most forgiving model while it clearly is the draw biased one. 

 

By your explanation, what I need is the LTDx. 

Well I worded it that way because I always lose track of which model is which from all different brands. They stick letters before and after the name, say Max or whatever. It's almost like they're trying to confuse us!

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, Vater said:

I need forgiveness with my driver

There is a layer of detail worth getting into here. 

Where specifically do you need that forgiveness? High/low, toe/heel, everywhere? For example, lots of people think they don't want a draw biased driver, but if the forgiveness you need is for a heel miss then that is exactly what you need.

[North Butte]

7 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

There is a layer of detail worth getting into here. 

Where specifically do you need that forgiveness? High/low, toe/heel, everywhere? For example, lots of people think they don't want a draw biased driver, but if the forgiveness you need is for a heel miss then that is exactly what you need.

Two of the people I've played regularly with over the years have complained about hitting it in the heel frequently but both of them were also habitual hookers. So those guys are kind of out of luck then? Hookers with a heel miss. One of them was also a sometimes shanker with his irons so it was a pretty fundamental swing path problem for him. 

[bladehunter]

G425 max is about as fade biased as you can hope for.  And it’s plenty forgiving. 

[Valtiel]

5 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Hookers with a heel miss.

I think that's a Tool song, yeah? 😂 Back me up @aenemated

But yeah, severe path problems would have been the cause there. Draw/Fade bias in a driver is going to refer to where the sweet spot is. Draw bias has a more heel side sweet spot, fade bias more toe side. If you look at the face of the club with a sweet spot right in the middle as having equal parts draw and fade potential based on the horizontal gearing of heel and toe strikes, then shifting the sweet spot horizontally will skew that overall balance of draw/fade potential. This is ALL related to strike however, the moment someone has significant face control/path issues you can only expect CG bias adjustments to give a small amount of help. Someone that hooks a heel ball has issues severe enough that no equipment will fix it.

Now some draw biased drivers will also lean towards having more shut face angles in their neutral settings, but this can both be overridden be squaring the face at address, opening the face via delofting, and is immediately wiped out once again by those aforementioned swing flaws.

[Valtiel]

8 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

G425 max is about as fade biased as you can hope for.  And it’s plenty forgiving. 

Careful, there is some brain trust in here that insists that even with both the weight AND hotmelt in the toe that it's still a hook machine. 🙄

[bladehunter]

Just now, Valtiel said:

Careful, there is some brain trust in here that insists that even with both the weight AND hotmelt in the toe that it's still a hook machine. 🙄

😂.  That’s Bull….oney.    I had a friend hit mine today.  He’s a walking hook machine.  And a really good player. He did not hit it left.  At all.  And that’s with weight in the neutral setting .   He was trying out the ventus red TR shaft.  So he went at it .  He does not miss right.  

[MattM97]

36 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

There is a layer of detail worth getting into here. 

Where specifically do you need that forgiveness? High/low, toe/heel, everywhere? For example, lots of people think they don't want a draw biased driver, but if the forgiveness you need is for a heel miss then that is exactly what you need.

 

And based on the miss location different drivers do better in certain locations over others. So while they all may be forgiving like you said there is that one that could be perfect for a miss one has.

[Vater]

To everyone talking about “your miss” - I’d like to point out that I’m not consistent enough to have a miss that repeats. 

[aenemated]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I think that's a Tool song, yeah? 😂 Back me up @aenemated

 

😂 Close enough! 

[Valtiel]

35 minutes ago, Vater said:

To everyone talking about “your miss” - I’d like to point out that I’m not consistent enough to have a miss that repeats. 

Then you simply want the highest MOI possible to give you the most protection around the face. Any of the PING MAX models would be the best place to start. None of them to date have been draw biased, and the latest two have a chunky enough moveable weight to tweak the bias should you simply want to hedge away from a particular shape. 

[Feelingofgreatness]

I'm going to say TSi1 or TSR1.  Even 0311 XF. 

 

I'm the same way... I already draw the ball and my miss is a big draw so draw models don't work.  Higher spin is more forgiving but you give up some distance... If you are fast enough it may be better to be straighter. The #1 lady used the TSi1. 

[bvanlieu]

6 hours ago, Vater said:

To everyone talking about “your miss” - I’d like to point out that I’m not consistent enough to have a miss that repeats. 

 

In between sips of coke in a cool Beastie T, Valtiel already led you down the path: this is where folks start with a Ping Max. If you are a like me and despise turbulators, there are some others close to it such as  Rogue ST Max.

 

Ping has led the charge here for a few model cycles. 

[Vater]

I was kinda making a self deprecating joke about not being consistent enough to have even a repeating miss, but I guess it didn’t land. 

My miss is high on the face - a pretty dumb miss in my opinion, but I’m not slicing or hooking most of the time. 

 

[North Butte]

4 minutes ago, Vater said:

I was kinda making a self deprecating joke about not being consistent enough to have even a repeating miss, but I guess it didn’t land. 

My miss is high on the face - a pretty dumb miss in my opinion, but I’m not slicing or hooking most of the time. 

 

I wear out a spot fairly high and slightly toward the toe on all my drivers. The slightly high is probably a good thing as it tends to add a little loft and take away a little spin (although with a 12-degree driver nowadays I'm not sure the extra loft is necessary).

 

And my tendency to catch a lot of shots about 1/4" toe side of center really doesn't seem to matter much as long as I don't go with a heel-weight "draw" driver. Last time I tried one of those it was dead and short and low hitting, just awful. 

 

Many years ago I had a Taylormade R7 Draw (I think that was the number) driver that was great for me. It did not have much in the way of heel weighting, just a very closed face. At that time, unlike now, I did have an outright slice driver swing and the closed face really helped with that. 

 

But nowadays, like yourself, I might hit a hook or slice (or any other shot you can name) once in a while but not very often. Pulls, pushes, pop-ups, line-drives, basically a mixture of good and bad shots but all mostly without any curve on them. That's probably helped by the 12 degrees of loft on a high-MOI driver. 

[WristySwing]

10 hours ago, North Butte said:

Two of the people I've played regularly with over the years have complained about hitting it in the heel frequently but both of them were also habitual hookers. So those guys are kind of out of luck then? Hookers with a heel miss. One of them was also a sometimes shanker with his irons so it was a pretty fundamental swing path problem for him. 

 

Over the top with a closed face to path.  Gives me the willies.  These are the guys that are the most likely to shatter a shaft at the heel as well because they tend to combo this with a descending angle of attack usually in the area of about 3-5* down on it.  They tend to be fairly good iron and fairway wood strikers but they quake in their shoes looking at a driver.

[North Butte]

2 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

 

Over the top with a closed face to path.  Gives me the willies.  These are the guys that are the most likely to shatter a shaft at the heel as well because they tend to combo this with a descending angle of attack usually in the area of about 3-5* down on it.  They tend to be fairly good iron and fairway wood strikers but they quake in their shoes looking at a driver.

Yeah, one of those guys did hit one in the shaft once. I wasn't playing with him that day but heard about it. Dang, that takes some serious swing "issues", right there! 

[WristySwing]

13 hours ago, Vater said:

I need forgiveness with my driver, but anti-slice help is not what I need.

 

Will I give up a lot of forgiveness going for the "regular" models instead of the "draw/max" models?

 

Specifically asking for your experiences with the LTDx vs. LTDx Max, but also curious across other drivers that are doing the same thing with the draw/max versions.

 

I would recommend, as others have, the G425 Max.  You can put the weight in the toe for a fade biased driver and even put it on a 3* flat setting as well.  Another driver that is fairly forgiving that gets very little love is the Mizuno 220G.  Three weight ports for dialing in ball flight along with a hosel adapter.  Srixon also has a new model in the works called the ZX5 LS that is supposed to be something special from the few who have hit it.  Think of the G425 LST + G425 mixing.  Stable and low spin.

[klebs01]

14 hours ago, bladehunter said:

😂.  That’s Bull….oney.    I had a friend hit mine today.  He’s a walking hook machine.  And a really good player. He did not hit it left.  At all.  And that’s with weight in the neutral setting .   He was trying out the ventus red TR shaft.  So he went at it .  He does not miss right.  

The 425max was a hook machine for me. The 400 is very straight and can hit fades easily.  The 425max just went left. Tried all sorts of thing with the settings to adjust it out and couldn’t do it. 

[jarediogolf]

Whatever you get… given the choice:
Lean towards a higher loft that you can turn down as opposed to a lower loft you need to turn up. 

[PEI_Golfer]

I played a 10.5* LTDx (opened to 9*) for most of the season and it is a fine driver.  My miss is toe side and it kept things in play.  For me, a neutral driver but I could turn it over as needed.  Would go left if I really released, but that was all my timing. 

 

I have a TEE C721 to test out for next year and looking forward to seeing how that performs, as the reviews are perfect for my needs.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, klebs01 said:

The 425max was a hook machine for me. The 400 is very straight and can hit fades easily.  The 425max just went left. Tried all sorts of thing with the settings to adjust it out and couldn’t do it. 

Still have that head ?  Loll. I’d buy it.  Not joking.  
 

I can hood  the face , put the weight in draw and turn the path in to out like I’m trying to go around a corner and  it wont draw.  And I hit a draw with everything  else. Including wedges. 
 

I get we’re all different.  But it would have to be wayyy different than the head I have.  For a contrast. I agreed with most who thought the mavrik standard head was left all day.  I loved it on the range because I could draw it at will. But on course I hit too many foul balls left.  And couldn’t fade it when it mattered 

[klebs01]

5 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Still have that head ?  Loll. I’d buy it.  Not joking.  
 

I can hood  the face , put the weight in draw and turn the path in to out like I’m trying to go around a corner and  it wont draw.  And I hit a draw with everything  else. Including wedges. 
 

I get we’re all different.  But it would have to be wayyy different than the head I have.  For a contrast. I agreed with most who thought the mavrik standard head was left all day.  I loved it on the range because I could draw it at will. But on course I hit too many foul balls left.  And couldn’t fade it when it mattered 

Gave it back to my pro after giving up on it. It was odd. Every shot was hard left. Pick up my 400 and hit a second drive and high straight. Maybe 5 yard fade. I wonder if there were QC issues in 2021 with these drivers. 

[kintap]

I had a Cally Epic Max which fits your description well.  Lofted down with the weight in the toe sets up fade biased, but is SUPER forgiving.

[Feelingofgreatness]

11 hours ago, jarediogolf said:

Whatever you get… given the choice:
Lean towards a higher loft that you can turn down as opposed to a lower loft you need to turn up. 

Amazing suggestion! 

[ChipNRun]

Go with an "overall forgiving model," and pay attention to shaft weight.

 

You want a shaft heavy enough to feel at top, but light enough you can swing on tempo.