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Need forgiveness, but not draw help


Vater
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I need forgiveness with my driver, but anti-slice help is not what I need.

 

Will I give up a lot of forgiveness going for the "regular" models instead of the "draw/max" models?

 

Specifically asking for your experiences with the LTDx vs. LTDx Max, but also curious across other drivers that are doing the same thing with the draw/max versions.

Driver: Cobra LTDx 10.5° Helium Nanocore

Fairway: Cobra RADSPEED 17° Motore X

Hybrid: Titleist TSi2 21° TENSEI AV RAW Blue

Utility Iron: Titleist 718 AP1 24° Recoil 780

Irons: Titleist 718 AP1 AMT Red

Wedges: Vokey SM8 48°, 54° Dynamic Gold

Lob Wedge: Vokey SM7 60° N.S. Pro Modus³ Tour 125

Putter: Scotty Cameron Special Select Newport 2

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Most brands these days have an overall forgiving model, a draw model and a low spin model. So if you don't need that anti slice just go for the forgiving model like a G430 Max, LTDx, Stealth, Rogue ST Max, etc, etc.

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Lefty

Driver: 8° Cobra LTDxLS | Mitsubishi C6 Onyx 60X

3W: 13.5° Ping G410 LST | Aldila NV 2KXV Green 75X

3H: 19° Ping G410 | Tensei CK Pro Orange 90TX

Irons: 4i - 7i Srixon 585 / 8i-PW Srixon 785 | AMT Tour White S300

Wedges: SM9 50° - 54° - 58° 

Putter(s): TP Mills Trad II | Cody James Patriot | NCW Morris | CMD Gauge R | KB-9306 | Kraken Bourne 3.0 | and more. 

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You want a model with the deepest, lowest CG and highest MOI you can find and that doesn't claim any draw bias.

 

Any sort of serious draw-bias weighting (as opposed to simply a closed face and upright lie) will actually be less forgiving than a max-forgiveness low/back CG model. So max-forgiveness and max-draw-bias will never be found in the same model. 

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44 minutes ago, North Butte said:

You want a model with the deepest, lowest CG and highest MOI you can find and that doesn't claim any draw bias.

 

Any sort of serious draw-bias weighting (as opposed to simply a closed face and upright lie) will actually be less forgiving than a max-forgiveness low/back CG model. So max-forgiveness and max-draw-bias will never be found in the same model. 

This makes sense to me and I appreciate the way you’ve stated it. 
 

I think I conflated things because everyone characterizes the LTDx Max as the most forgiving model while it clearly is the draw biased one. 

 

By your explanation, what I need is the LTDx. 

Driver: Cobra LTDx 10.5° Helium Nanocore

Fairway: Cobra RADSPEED 17° Motore X

Hybrid: Titleist TSi2 21° TENSEI AV RAW Blue

Utility Iron: Titleist 718 AP1 24° Recoil 780

Irons: Titleist 718 AP1 AMT Red

Wedges: Vokey SM8 48°, 54° Dynamic Gold

Lob Wedge: Vokey SM7 60° N.S. Pro Modus³ Tour 125

Putter: Scotty Cameron Special Select Newport 2

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5 minutes ago, Vater said:

This makes sense to me and I appreciate the way you’ve stated it. 
 

I think I conflated things because everyone characterizes the LTDx Max as the most forgiving model while it clearly is the draw biased one. 

 

By your explanation, what I need is the LTDx. 

Well I worded it that way because I always lose track of which model is which from all different brands. They stick letters before and after the name, say Max or whatever. It's almost like they're trying to confuse us!

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2 hours ago, Vater said:

I need forgiveness with my driver


There is a layer of detail worth getting into here. 

Where specifically do you need that forgiveness? High/low, toe/heel, everywhere? For example, lots of people think they don't want a draw biased driver, but if the forgiveness you need is for a heel miss then that is exactly what you need.

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7 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


There is a layer of detail worth getting into here. 

Where specifically do you need that forgiveness? High/low, toe/heel, everywhere? For example, lots of people think they don't want a draw biased driver, but if the forgiveness you need is for a heel miss then that is exactly what you need.

Two of the people I've played regularly with over the years have complained about hitting it in the heel frequently but both of them were also habitual hookers. So those guys are kind of out of luck then? Hookers with a heel miss. One of them was also a sometimes shanker with his irons so it was a pretty fundamental swing path problem for him. 

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G425 max is about as fade biased as you can hope for.  And it’s plenty forgiving. 

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5 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Hookers with a heel miss.


I think that's a Tool song, yeah? 😂 Back me up @aenemated

But yeah, severe path problems would have been the cause there. Draw/Fade bias in a driver is going to refer to where the sweet spot is. Draw bias has a more heel side sweet spot, fade bias more toe side. If you look at the face of the club with a sweet spot right in the middle as having equal parts draw and fade potential based on the horizontal gearing of heel and toe strikes, then shifting the sweet spot horizontally will skew that overall balance of draw/fade potential. This is ALL related to strike however, the moment someone has significant face control/path issues you can only expect CG bias adjustments to give a small amount of help. Someone that hooks a heel ball has issues severe enough that no equipment will fix it.

Now some draw biased drivers will also lean towards having more shut face angles in their neutral settings, but this can both be overridden be squaring the face at address, opening the face via delofting, and is immediately wiped out once again by those aforementioned swing flaws.

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8 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

G425 max is about as fade biased as you can hope for.  And it’s plenty forgiving. 


Careful, there is some brain trust in here that insists that even with both the weight AND hotmelt in the toe that it's still a hook machine. 🙄

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Callaway Apex UW 19* Diamana S+ 100TX || Taylormade P790 Black 19* Graphite Design AD-IZ 95x Hybrid
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Just now, Valtiel said:


Careful, there is some brain trust in here that insists that even with both the weight AND hotmelt in the toe that it's still a hook machine. 🙄

😂.  That’s Bull….oney.    I had a friend hit mine today.  He’s a walking hook machine.  And a really good player. He did not hit it left.  At all.  And that’s with weight in the neutral setting .   He was trying out the ventus red TR shaft.  So he went at it .  He does not miss right.  

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Callaway x forged cb 21 4-pw Mmt125tx 

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36 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


There is a layer of detail worth getting into here. 

Where specifically do you need that forgiveness? High/low, toe/heel, everywhere? For example, lots of people think they don't want a draw biased driver, but if the forgiveness you need is for a heel miss then that is exactly what you need.

 

And based on the miss location different drivers do better in certain locations over others. So while they all may be forgiving like you said there is that one that could be perfect for a miss one has.

Lefty

Driver: 8° Cobra LTDxLS | Mitsubishi C6 Onyx 60X

3W: 13.5° Ping G410 LST | Aldila NV 2KXV Green 75X

3H: 19° Ping G410 | Tensei CK Pro Orange 90TX

Irons: 4i - 7i Srixon 585 / 8i-PW Srixon 785 | AMT Tour White S300

Wedges: SM9 50° - 54° - 58° 

Putter(s): TP Mills Trad II | Cody James Patriot | NCW Morris | CMD Gauge R | KB-9306 | Kraken Bourne 3.0 | and more. 

WITB Thread

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To everyone talking about “your miss” - I’d like to point out that I’m not consistent enough to have a miss that repeats. 

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Driver: Cobra LTDx 10.5° Helium Nanocore

Fairway: Cobra RADSPEED 17° Motore X

Hybrid: Titleist TSi2 21° TENSEI AV RAW Blue

Utility Iron: Titleist 718 AP1 24° Recoil 780

Irons: Titleist 718 AP1 AMT Red

Wedges: Vokey SM8 48°, 54° Dynamic Gold

Lob Wedge: Vokey SM7 60° N.S. Pro Modus³ Tour 125

Putter: Scotty Cameron Special Select Newport 2

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2 hours ago, Valtiel said:


I think that's a Tool song, yeah? 😂 Back me up @aenemated

 

😂 Close enough! 

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35 minutes ago, Vater said:

To everyone talking about “your miss” - I’d like to point out that I’m not consistent enough to have a miss that repeats. 


Then you simply want the highest MOI possible to give you the most protection around the face. Any of the PING MAX models would be the best place to start. None of them to date have been draw biased, and the latest two have a chunky enough moveable weight to tweak the bias should you simply want to hedge away from a particular shape. 

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I'm going to say TSi1 or TSR1.  Even 0311 XF. 

 

I'm the same way... I already draw the ball and my miss is a big draw so draw models don't work.  Higher spin is more forgiving but you give up some distance... If you are fast enough it may be better to be straighter. The #1 lady used the TSi1. 

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6 hours ago, Vater said:

To everyone talking about “your miss” - I’d like to point out that I’m not consistent enough to have a miss that repeats. 

 

In between sips of coke in a cool Beastie T, Valtiel already led you down the path: this is where folks start with a Ping Max. If you are a like me and despise turbulators, there are some others close to it such as  Rogue ST Max.

 

Ping has led the charge here for a few model cycles. 

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I was kinda making a self deprecating joke about not being consistent enough to have even a repeating miss, but I guess it didn’t land. 

My miss is high on the face - a pretty dumb miss in my opinion, but I’m not slicing or hooking most of the time. 

 

Driver: Cobra LTDx 10.5° Helium Nanocore

Fairway: Cobra RADSPEED 17° Motore X

Hybrid: Titleist TSi2 21° TENSEI AV RAW Blue

Utility Iron: Titleist 718 AP1 24° Recoil 780

Irons: Titleist 718 AP1 AMT Red

Wedges: Vokey SM8 48°, 54° Dynamic Gold

Lob Wedge: Vokey SM7 60° N.S. Pro Modus³ Tour 125

Putter: Scotty Cameron Special Select Newport 2

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4 minutes ago, Vater said:

I was kinda making a self deprecating joke about not being consistent enough to have even a repeating miss, but I guess it didn’t land. 

My miss is high on the face - a pretty dumb miss in my opinion, but I’m not slicing or hooking most of the time. 

 

I wear out a spot fairly high and slightly toward the toe on all my drivers. The slightly high is probably a good thing as it tends to add a little loft and take away a little spin (although with a 12-degree driver nowadays I'm not sure the extra loft is necessary).

 

And my tendency to catch a lot of shots about 1/4" toe side of center really doesn't seem to matter much as long as I don't go with a heel-weight "draw" driver. Last time I tried one of those it was dead and short and low hitting, just awful. 

 

Many years ago I had a Taylormade R7 Draw (I think that was the number) driver that was great for me. It did not have much in the way of heel weighting, just a very closed face. At that time, unlike now, I did have an outright slice driver swing and the closed face really helped with that. 

 

But nowadays, like yourself, I might hit a hook or slice (or any other shot you can name) once in a while but not very often. Pulls, pushes, pop-ups, line-drives, basically a mixture of good and bad shots but all mostly without any curve on them. That's probably helped by the 12 degrees of loft on a high-MOI driver. 

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10 hours ago, North Butte said:

Two of the people I've played regularly with over the years have complained about hitting it in the heel frequently but both of them were also habitual hookers. So those guys are kind of out of luck then? Hookers with a heel miss. One of them was also a sometimes shanker with his irons so it was a pretty fundamental swing path problem for him. 

 

Over the top with a closed face to path.  Gives me the willies.  These are the guys that are the most likely to shatter a shaft at the heel as well because they tend to combo this with a descending angle of attack usually in the area of about 3-5* down on it.  They tend to be fairly good iron and fairway wood strikers but they quake in their shoes looking at a driver.

I am on the quest for the clubs I hit the best, feel and looks be darned.

These below have my attention at the moment.

 

SIM - Rogue Silver 130

Speedzone Tour Big - Arcane

Rogue Sub Zero - Thump 

Ping i525 5-UW - Project X IO 

Cleveland RTX6 ZipCore 54/Mid & 58/Low+ - Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Spinner

Bettinardi Hive Custom - Spencer Levin Style

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2 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

 

Over the top with a closed face to path.  Gives me the willies.  These are the guys that are the most likely to shatter a shaft at the heel as well because they tend to combo this with a descending angle of attack usually in the area of about 3-5* down on it.  They tend to be fairly good iron and fairway wood strikers but they quake in their shoes looking at a driver.

Yeah, one of those guys did hit one in the shaft once. I wasn't playing with him that day but heard about it. Dang, that takes some serious swing "issues", right there! 

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13 hours ago, Vater said:

I need forgiveness with my driver, but anti-slice help is not what I need.

 

Will I give up a lot of forgiveness going for the "regular" models instead of the "draw/max" models?

 

Specifically asking for your experiences with the LTDx vs. LTDx Max, but also curious across other drivers that are doing the same thing with the draw/max versions.

 

I would recommend, as others have, the G425 Max.  You can put the weight in the toe for a fade biased driver and even put it on a 3* flat setting as well.  Another driver that is fairly forgiving that gets very little love is the Mizuno 220G.  Three weight ports for dialing in ball flight along with a hosel adapter.  Srixon also has a new model in the works called the ZX5 LS that is supposed to be something special from the few who have hit it.  Think of the G425 LST + G425 mixing.  Stable and low spin.

I am on the quest for the clubs I hit the best, feel and looks be darned.

These below have my attention at the moment.

 

SIM - Rogue Silver 130

Speedzone Tour Big - Arcane

Rogue Sub Zero - Thump 

Ping i525 5-UW - Project X IO 

Cleveland RTX6 ZipCore 54/Mid & 58/Low+ - Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Spinner

Bettinardi Hive Custom - Spencer Levin Style

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14 hours ago, bladehunter said:

😂.  That’s Bull….oney.    I had a friend hit mine today.  He’s a walking hook machine.  And a really good player. He did not hit it left.  At all.  And that’s with weight in the neutral setting .   He was trying out the ventus red TR shaft.  So he went at it .  He does not miss right.  


The 425max was a hook machine for me. The 400 is very straight and can hit fades easily.  The 425max just went left. Tried all sorts of thing with the settings to adjust it out and couldn’t do it. 

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Whatever you get… given the choice:
Lean towards a higher loft that you can turn down as opposed to a lower loft you need to turn up. 

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I played a 10.5* LTDx (opened to 9*) for most of the season and it is a fine driver.  My miss is toe side and it kept things in play.  For me, a neutral driver but I could turn it over as needed.  Would go left if I really released, but that was all my timing. 

 

I have a TEE C721 to test out for next year and looking forward to seeing how that performs, as the reviews are perfect for my needs.

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1 hour ago, klebs01 said:


The 425max was a hook machine for me. The 400 is very straight and can hit fades easily.  The 425max just went left. Tried all sorts of thing with the settings to adjust it out and couldn’t do it. 

Still have that head ?  Loll. I’d buy it.  Not joking.  
 

I can hood  the face , put the weight in draw and turn the path in to out like I’m trying to go around a corner and  it wont draw.  And I hit a draw with everything  else. Including wedges. 
 

I get we’re all different.  But it would have to be wayyy different than the head I have.  For a contrast. I agreed with most who thought the mavrik standard head was left all day.  I loved it on the range because I could draw it at will. But on course I hit too many foul balls left.  And couldn’t fade it when it mattered 

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5 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Still have that head ?  Loll. I’d buy it.  Not joking.  
 

I can hood  the face , put the weight in draw and turn the path in to out like I’m trying to go around a corner and  it wont draw.  And I hit a draw with everything  else. Including wedges. 
 

I get we’re all different.  But it would have to be wayyy different than the head I have.  For a contrast. I agreed with most who thought the mavrik standard head was left all day.  I loved it on the range because I could draw it at will. But on course I hit too many foul balls left.  And couldn’t fade it when it mattered 


Gave it back to my pro after giving up on it. It was odd. Every shot was hard left. Pick up my 400 and hit a second drive and high straight. Maybe 5 yard fade. I wonder if there were QC issues in 2021 with these drivers. 

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I had a Cally Epic Max which fits your description well.  Lofted down with the weight in the toe sets up fade biased, but is SUPER forgiving.

Callaway Rogue ST Max LS 9* w/ Aldila Tour Green 65S

Titleist 917 F2 16.5* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75S

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Srixon z585 4I w/ Project X LZ 6.0

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Go with an "overall forgiving model," and pay attention to shaft weight.

 

You want a shaft heavy enough to feel at top, but light enough you can swing on tempo.

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Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5°, set 9.5°; weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Calla Mavrik MAX 5i-PW

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      Cameron putters - 2023 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      TaylorMade Max putters - 2023 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      LA Golf Malibu X putter - 2023 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pebble Beach 18th Hole walking tour (and inside "The Lodge") – 2023 AT&T Pebble Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
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    • 2023 Farmers Insurance Open - Discussion and Links to all photos
      Please put any questions or Comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
       
      2023 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #1
      2023 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #2
      2023 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2023 Farmers Insurance Open
      Will Zalatoris - WITB - 2023 Farmers Insurance Open
      Michael Herrera - WITB - 2023 Farmers Insurance Open
      Michael Block - SoCal PGA Section Champ - WITB - 2023 Farmers Insurance Open
      Carl Yuan - WITB - 2023 Farmers Insurance Open
      Joey Vrzich - WITB - 2023 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Taylor-Made putters - 2023 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
       
       
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    • 2023 The American Express - Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comment here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2023 The American Express - Monday #1
      2023 The American Express - Monday #2
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2023 The American Express
      Doug Ghim - WITB - 2023 The American Express
      Sam Burns - WITB - 2023 The American Express
      Caleb Surratt - WITB - 2023 The American Express
      Aaron Wise - WITB - 2023 The American Express
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
       
      New Cameron putter - 2023 The American Express
      Cameron putters - - 2023 The American Express
      New Bettinardi prototype putters - 2023 The American Express
      New L.A.B. Golf LINK.1 putter - 2023 The American Express
      New Evnroll putters - 2023 The American Express
      Jimmy Walker testing the Axis prototype putter - 2023 The American Express
      Cameron CT Baller Boy covers - 2023 The American Express
      Richy Werenski's Cameron Timeless putter - 2023 The American Express
      Graphite Design - CQ 6 & CQ 7 shafts - 2023 The American Express
      Titleist TRS hybrids - 2023 The American Express
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 11 replies
    • In-hand photos of 2023 TaylorMade Stealth 2 Plus, Stealth 2, Stealth 2 HD drivers + fairways woods
      Check out our front page launch stories here and here. 
       
      What you need to know: For the first time, carbon is the most prevalent material by volume in a TaylorMade driver, and more carbon equals better performance, says the company. Last year, TaylorMade debuted a 60X Carbon Twist Face. With TaylorMade Stealth 2, engineers are bringing carbon to more of the golf club — and unveiling a new-and-improved Carbon Twist Face in the process. Stealth 2 Plus (low spin, most workable) Stealth 2, and Stealth 2 HD (draw bias, high launch, most forgiving) drivers make up the Stealth 2 family.
       
      Stealth 2 


       
      Stealth 2 Plus


       
      Stealth 2 HD



       
      What you need to know: Breakthrough movable weight technologies and versatile designs are the hallmarks of the 2023 TaylorMade Stealth 2 fairway woods. Stealth 2 Plus is branded as “three fairway woods in one” owing to the unique performance characteristics afforded by the 50-gram sole weight. Stealth 2 features a slightly lower profile 3D carbon crown than Stealth. This moves CG down and away from the toe with more weight in the rear of the club for higher launch and MOI. Ultra-high MOI Stealth 2 HD features an oversized 200cc head and low-profile sole, creating an easy-to-hit, draw-biased club.
       
      Stealth 2 fairway


       
      Stealth 2 Plus fairway


       
       


       
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    • 2023 Sentry Tournament of Champions - Discussion
      Please put any equipment questions or comments here
       
      More albums will be added tomorrow
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2023 Sentry Tournament of Champions at Kapalua – Tues. Pt. 1
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Jon Rahm mini WITB (w/ new Callaway Paradym Triple Diamond driver and fairway woods) – 2023 Sentry Tournament of Champions
      Ryan Brehm WITB – 2023 Sentry Tournament of Champions
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      SuperStroke Limited Edition Hawaii Collection covers and grips – 2023 Sentry Tournament of Champions
      Collin Morikawa's new TaylorMade Stealth 2 Plus driver and 3 wood – 2023 Sentry Tournament of Champions
      Xander Schauffele's new Callaway Paradym Triple Diamond driver – 2023 Sentry Tournament of Champions
      Xander Schauffele's Odyssey Toulon "XS Proto" mallet putter – 2023 Sentry Tournament of Champions
      New Odyssey White Hot Versa and Tri-Hot 5K putters – 2023 Sentry Tournament of Champions
      Sungjae Im's Scotty Cameron Tourtype F-5 proto putter (with new SuperStroke Zenergy 1.0 PT grip) – 2023 Sentry Tournament of Champions
      Scottie Scheffler's new TaylorMade Stealth 2 Plus driver and Stealth 2 fairway wood – 2023 Sentry Tournament of Champions
       
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
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      • 83 replies

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