15 cap offseason suggestions for improving

[ezra76]

Just figured I'd pick a few brains if I could. I finished season off 15. First year back playing in 12yrs. Couple recent swings. What would you say is most important to work on or stands out most?

 

 

 

[Sean124]

Your hip movement is backwards. 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IxllCJRKS4
 

 

[Valtiel]

To add to what @Sean124 said, there are two main elements that are working backwards that are causing your problems. Regarding your hips:



The green dot is the ball, red dot is your left hip, orange is your right. Your rotation is coming entirely from swinging your left hip forward in the backswing and your right hip forward in the downswing, which brings you towards the ball as we can see above. This creates a big problem because when you tictac towards the ball like this you have to compensate. Normally this involves handle raising, loss of spine angle, and a steepening of the shaft plane. All the common "early extension" problems. The correct sequence as described in the AMG video above looks like this:



Right hip back, left hip back. This maintains of even *increases* your distance from the ball negating the need for any of these early extension compensations. This is a learned movement however, it is very unintuitive and I guarantee you won't do it right initially. It requires a very conscious shift in how you move your lower body. 

The second element that is causing big problems is your wrist conditions at the top of the swing:



You're setting your wrists backwards causing all sorts of problems (@Ballcoach35 if you're still out there this is what we discussed previously). As you reach the top of the backswing you lose all of your right wrist extension while extending (cupping) your left wrist and kicking your right elbow out. All of these things combine to open the clubface and send the shaft plane across the line while also removing your ability to self correct (wrists are very ineffective in these positions) requiring you instead to reroute your downswing plane. Bottom line, you'll never be able to make a good downswing from this position and you'll want to reverse your wrist conditions at the top. Doing this in front of a mirror initially is best IMO, I would take your normal backswing that gets you into this position and feel what it feels like to flatten your left wrist and extended (fold back) your right. Then work backwards to slowly figure out how to arrive at this position in the backswing (you don't want to swing incorrectly then rely on "fixing" in transition). Oosthuizen is a good example above, but whether you end up slightly laid off like him, more neutral, or slightly across the line, you NEED that right wrist extension at the top to shallow the shaft plane and deliver the club properly. 

These are both big changes so i'd caution trying them both at the same time. The wrist condition stuff might be easier to get your head around first as the bad club position at the top currently will likely limit your ability to correctly use your lower body. Focus on the mirror stuff then check your swing on video. You will very likely revert to old habits quickly so it will require repetition. Check for the correct wrist angles on video and keep drilling until you can get the club there without too much conscious effort before moving on and prepare to spend weeks if not months getting to that point. Then repeat for the lower body stuff per the diagrams above and the video Sean linked. 

[ezra76]

Great thanks. I've worked a lot on pivot this year so will continue. 

 

Wrist is also another project. You see it get a little better in 1st video. Get there. just need to stop there. 

 

Also I have an old poorly healed broken bone in my right wrist. So although I can't do a DJ or Sergio move I can do better than this.

 

Edit: little further explanation. Right wrist only has about 1/4 movement back. Like I cannot do a pushup, not even close, with hand flat on the ground. So for me I'm going to have to find that spot that is least cupped to stop and work on a move to shallow I guess. I should probably be looking at players with much less of a bow move since I can't do it. 

 

The hip move I thought I was doing good but guess I need some drills to figure it out. What I see in that little clip for proper way feels not only unnatural but not even possible physically to me. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by ezra76

[Sean124]

6 hours ago, ezra76 said:

The hip move I thought I was doing good but guess I need some drills to figure it out. What I see in that little clip for proper way feels not only unnatural but not even possible physically to me. 

The golf swing might be the most unnatural movement in all of sports. Golf is dumb. 😂
 

[ac6]

11 hours ago, ezra76 said:

Great thanks. I've worked a lot on pivot this year so will continue. 

 

Wrist is also another project. You see it get a little better in 1st video. Get there. just need to stop there. 

 

Also I have an old poorly healed broken bone in my right wrist. So although I can't do a DJ or Sergio move I can do better than this.

 

Edit: little further explanation. Right wrist only has about 1/4 movement back. Like I cannot do a pushup, not even close, with hand flat on the ground. So for me I'm going to have to find that spot that is least cupped to stop and work on a move to shallow I guess. I should probably be looking at players with much less of a bow move since I can't do it. 

 

The hip move I thought I was doing good but guess I need some drills to figure it out. What I see in that little clip for proper way feels not only unnatural but not even possible physically to me. 

Re: the wrist mobility issue, could you possibly show us a better view of your grip? Given that you have a limitation on right wrist extension, playing with a neutral grip (Vs pointing straight up or just right of center) may not be ideal for you to get in a position at the top that minimizes the manipulation you need to get the club in the right slot coming down. Maybe weakening your left hand and strengthening your right hand might get you in a better position? 

 

Try looking at Webb Simpson's move as he's known for his cupped left wrist at the top (and very little right wrist extension) but he does end up extending it more fully through the downswing which it sounds like you might not be able to do. 

 

[ezra76]

39 minutes ago, ac6 said:

Re: the wrist mobility issue, could you possibly show us a better view of your grip? Given that you have a limitation on right wrist extension, playing with a neutral grip (Vs pointing straight up or just right of center) may not be ideal for you to get in a position at the top that minimizes the manipulation you need to get the club in the right slot coming down. Maybe weakening your left hand and strengthening your right hand might get you in a better position? 

 

Try looking at Webb Simpson's move as he's known for his cupped left wrist at the top (and very little right wrist extension) but he does end up extending it more fully through the downswing which it sounds like you might not be able to do. 

 

I put a couple pics of grip then my max right wrist bend. I've actually gone right a hair stronger lately with driver than I used to.  I've been squaring it up pretty good. A few tricks that have been suggested were close up shoulders a little to keep right arm under left and to flare rear foot, especially when squaring up body line, to get more room for right elbow. 

[Valtiel]

23 minutes ago, ezra76 said:

I put a couple pics of grip then my max right wrist bend. I've actually gone right a hair stronger lately with driver than I used to.  I've been squaring it up pretty good. A few tricks that have been suggested were close up shoulders a little to keep right arm under left and to flare rear foot, especially when squaring up body line, to get more room for right elbow. 

A stronger right hand will definitely help a bit, but if the pictures above are meant to indicate "stronger", that is still quite weak.



This would be considered on the weak side of neutral and you'll likely want that "V" pointing towards your right shoulder, not at your head.

The most important thing with the physical limitation (aside from anything you can do to regain lost RoM) is to maintain the right wrist extension you do have and NOT lose it at the top like you do now. Physical limitations aside, the move you're doing at the top right now is not caused by those. Lots of people have the same fault without the right wrist issues and it comes from a lack of understanding in where and how your wrists hinge/load at the top. You *have* some right wrist extension in your backswing, so we know you can do it, you're just doing a wrist hinge move at the top that you shouldn't be. The only issue is if the maintaining of that extension causes pain. Regardless, you're going to have to likely adopt a more compact backswing a la Steve Stricker to work around the wrist limitation.

[ezra76]

Agreed. It's in there, just a matter of stopping really. Then what to do on the way down. And yes that is the stronger grip. 😅 Thank you. 

[vernon]

Really good advice here.

 

[ac6]

Stricker is definitely a good one to take a look at as @Valtiel mentions, he has a complete turn but with minimal wrist set. Check out hi s right wrist at the top, which looks like a position that would work for you.

 

 

Also check out his grip, which is what neutral typically looks like. Even with a moderate forward press the right-hand V is pointing right of his head.

.

[ezra76]

Agreed. It's already pretty much in there. I'll watch more and break out the old swingyde and paint stirring sticks 😁 

Ironically this screenshot is from smack between the 2 rounds I broke 80 this summer.

[ChipDriver]

Flamesuit on:

 

What is your objective?  To have a pretty swing that's technically perfect?  Or to lower your handicap index?   Or somewhere in between?

 

My suggestion is to focus on your short game short game short game.  You will reduce your index much faster than working on long game.   Nobody  drops their hcap faster by focusing on long game.  🙂   Your swing looks pretty enough and looks efficient enough to hit it ugly near the green in 2 or 3 - and then let your improved short game increase your ability to up and down and you'll see more pars; and less doubles and triples.

 

Even changing your wrist bend; or your hip motion - you're going to step backwards for a few weeks or months - before you can normalize and play the new swing/new motions.  And to get "10,000 reps"/normalize the motion - you are putting a strain on your body and joints - and you're already compromised.  Short game is easier, less strain on joints and body - and you get your reps done in about 1/3 of the time.   

 

Suggestions for short game that got me from 15 to a 7 within a season - the emphasis was on keeping it "stupidly simple" - b/c that's what I am.  🙂 

 

1) full swing high shot from a reliable distance (86-105 yards).  It should drop and stop/release.   I hate a full swing wedge - but I know that many people insist on it.  🙂 

2) from 100/50 yards practice practice practice a 3/4 shot that has a lower trajectory  that reliably drops, and releases PAST the pin. 

3) practice your chips from 40/30/20/10 yards - so that you can be within 10 feet of the pin more often than not.  This seems to be boring as hell - but I'd bet you stink at these distances.  🙂   The objective is repeatable solid contact that rolls to within 10 feet.  Very hard - but once you start to get good at it - you get addicted.  These are the shots that old farts like me hit all day long - as if it's a "long first putt"...so that any other putt is a tap in.  We take your money.  🙂    Key to these IMO is knowing your carry/roll ratios for the clubs you want to hit.

4) Practice chipping from greenside rough from 5 yards and less.  Hint:  "toe down wedge"

 

5) practice your 6 foot putts.  Straight; slight break right; slight break left.   If you do it enough - IMO - your perception of the "width of the path" of the putt gets wider - not narrower.    When you stink at putting like I did - the pathway the ball traveled to the hole was very skinny; and the cup looked tiny.   After practicing extensively hitting putts from 6 feet - I feel like I could almost one-hand a 6 footer with one eye closed and it will go in (no not really that good...but pretty darned close).

 

The short game is infinitely more doable, and faster than fixing your mechanics on full swing.

 

But it's boring - and there is no short cutting it.   But the ROI is incredible IMO if you do the work.    Good luck..

 

 

[Valtiel]

23 hours ago, ezra76 said:

Agreed. It's already pretty much in there. I'll watch more and break out the old swingyde and paint stirring sticks 😁 

Ironically this screenshot is from smack between the 2 rounds I broke 80 this summer.

That will be a far more manageable position than what you had previously, yeah. Stepping back from the right wrist stuff, at the end of the day the goal is just get the club on plane in the downswing, preferably as soon as possible but that will vary based on the player. The reason the previous wrist stuff was a problem was it threw the club off plane so severely right at the end of your swing that getting back on was basically impossible, meaning that all different types of consistency issues would arise from managing that in the downswing, namely steepness and low point control (fats and thins). Keeping the club in a more neutral position like you have above will on average be much easier to manage leading to more long term consistency due to fewer moving parts and the need for their compensations. The lower body stuff would be the next frontier to take another step forward.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Valtiel

[ezra76]

Good little test today. At hole 8 I had not hit a GiR and my tee shots were bad. Decided to choke down and go 3/4 keep right elbow in front of hip. Ended up at 8 GiR.   Was able to stop and tighten my lug nuts instead of wheels coming off.

[ezra76]

Little update. Slightly better I think. Been hitting a lot of 3/4 shots in a field and into a net. Happy with accuracy on the 50-100yd. wedge shots. 

 

 

[Valtiel]

7 hours ago, ezra76 said:

Little update. Slightly better I think. Been hitting a lot of 3/4 shots in a field and into a net. Happy with accuracy on the 50-100yd. wedge shots. 

 

 

To be blunt, all the wrong things identified earlier in the thread are still happening and haven't changed:



This is exactly the reverse hip rotation problem I described in this earlier post. You're pivoting around your right hip while swinging your left out forwards. 3/4 of the way into your backswing and your hand space is literally gone (the red dot) and you've come noticeably towards the ball. A wedge swing does not create a lot of force, so the problem is here that you are actively using your hips incorrectly to put yourself in a bad position. I think this is partially because of your setup posture which feels like its too hunched over and forward. Notice how significantly your spine angle straightens and your head comes up. You aren't staying in your address posture at all which suggests that posture needs to change. 

This gif also represents what would be an approximate 3/4 wedge, which is what you reference hitting here. However...



...you continue on well past what would be considered a 3/4 length swing into something that more closely resembles a full 8-iron swing (or similar). You're also still deepening your hands, cupping your left wrist, and losing your right wrist angle which is sending the club towards being across the line. Those are still both movements that move you away from where you want to be:



Specifically this sequence. The club goes from being somewhat neutral as you approach the top of your swing, swings to the right and across the line as you finish, and then moves down steeply straight towards the ground in transition. All of this is backwards, like the hip movements, and will continue to cause problems as a result.



Down into impact we see what *looks* like a small effort to rotate correctly with the right hip staying put and the left hip turning back, but its quickly overtaken by the right hip coming out towards the ball. You actually get down more into a posture that resembles where you were at address here, so we know you *can* move in this position and that your incorrect hip rotation in the backswing is likely what is pulling you up out of your posture, although I still think its too bent over.

Overall there is what feels like the common lack of body awareness to realize you're doing these things wrong. You're moving your hips the same way you likely always have and you might simply not know how to do it any other way, in which case you need an instructor that can force you into the correct positions. Same for the top of the swing. Overall you are a little less severe in these problems than you were in the first videos, but in such a way that you're just doing slightly less of the wrong things as opposed to more of the "right" things.

If you're going to continue trying to self improve then you'll need to implement some way of checking these things yourself. Assuming you're using a decent phone to record these, start reviewing your swings afterwards to look for the things i'm pointing out above. Get a skinny strip of something you can literally place on your phone screen to serve as a line behind your butt like i've drawn above and check to see if you pull away from that line. If you do then go back to the video @Sean124 posted back at the beginning of thread and get your head around why you're still moving like the "Am" and how you can go about moving like the "Pro". Same for the top of the swing, check to see if the club makes that move across the line at the top and keep trying to find ways to retain left wrist flatness and right wrist extension (to whatever degree you can) to keep it from doing that.

[ezra76]

Ok thanks. I've spent a lot of time working on hip turn, like 8-9months. I'll need some different drills I guess. I tend to wonder if camera angle is affecting what is seen here. Positive note my SS is up to 100 with driver and wedges are getting pretty good. 😁 Edit: I checked a few other vids and the same as you pointed out @Valtiel. I appreciate the feedback as I did a 4lesson pack, I like the instructor, great guy I've known for a while and former D1/minitour standout but absolutely zero was mentioned about hip rotation issues. Everything was arms/width and then keeping right arm under left. I feel like he's always just trying to get me to hit draws. I'll continue working on it and most likely try a different instructor in the future.

Edited January 7, 2023 by ezra76

[ezra76]

On 11/30/2022 at 11:02 AM, ChipDriver said:

Flamesuit on:

 

What is your objective?  To have a pretty swing that's technically perfect?  Or to lower your handicap index?   Or somewhere in between?

 

My suggestion is to focus on your short game short game short game.  You will reduce your index much faster than working on long game.   Nobody  drops their hcap faster by focusing on long game.  🙂   Your swing looks pretty enough and looks efficient enough to hit it ugly near the green in 2 or 3 - and then let your improved short game increase your ability to up and down and you'll see more pars; and less doubles and triples.

 

Even changing your wrist bend; or your hip motion - you're going to step backwards for a few weeks or months - before you can normalize and play the new swing/new motions.  And to get "10,000 reps"/normalize the motion - you are putting a strain on your body and joints - and you're already compromised.  Short game is easier, less strain on joints and body - and you get your reps done in about 1/3 of the time.   

 

Suggestions for short game that got me from 15 to a 7 within a season - the emphasis was on keeping it "stupidly simple" - b/c that's what I am.  🙂 

 

1) full swing high shot from a reliable distance (86-105 yards).  It should drop and stop/release.   I hate a full swing wedge - but I know that many people insist on it.  🙂 

2) from 100/50 yards practice practice practice a 3/4 shot that has a lower trajectory  that reliably drops, and releases PAST the pin. 

3) practice your chips from 40/30/20/10 yards - so that you can be within 10 feet of the pin more often than not.  This seems to be boring as hell - but I'd bet you stink at these distances.  🙂   The objective is repeatable solid contact that rolls to within 10 feet.  Very hard - but once you start to get good at it - you get addicted.  These are the shots that old farts like me hit all day long - as if it's a "long first putt"...so that any other putt is a tap in.  We take your money.  🙂    Key to these IMO is knowing your carry/roll ratios for the clubs you want to hit.

4) Practice chipping from greenside rough from 5 yards and less.  Hint:  "toe down wedge"

 

5) practice your 6 foot putts.  Straight; slight break right; slight break left.   If you do it enough - IMO - your perception of the "width of the path" of the putt gets wider - not narrower.    When you stink at putting like I did - the pathway the ball traveled to the hole was very skinny; and the cup looked tiny.   After practicing extensively hitting putts from 6 feet - I feel like I could almost one-hand a 6 footer with one eye closed and it will go in (no not really that good...but pretty darned close).

 

The short game is infinitely more doable, and faster than fixing your mechanics on full swing.

 

But it's boring - and there is no short cutting it.   But the ROI is incredible IMO if you do the work.    Good luck..

 

 

Thank you.

 

I work on wedges a lot in a field near my house, addicted to it. Pop a loaded cbd gummy, earbuds in and and I spend a few hours out there. I used a 5gal bucket and all sorts of sticks to make green borders as well as all sorts of pitch/chip shot trajectories. Even a big sand area where playground equipment used to be for short, medium, long bunker shots. 

 

Putting is hot and cold and can definitely improve there quite a bit. 

 

Here's one of my fav's, flopping over the old backstop. 😁 48* wedge

 

 

[Valtiel]

12 hours ago, ezra76 said:

Ok thanks. I've spent a lot of time working on hip turn, like 8-9months. I'll need some different drills I guess.

See the post I tagged you in in the other thread. A better drill might be helpful, but getting your head around the concept first and actually committing to moving differently is key, because to have worked on it 8-9 months to still be doing it incorrectly/backwards in the same ways means you aren't doing the right things. Hopefully the way I described it in that other thread can help, but everyone learns differently and it's a tough concept to grasp. The first thing to grasp is that you're very likely just defaulting to moving a certain way because it's what feels natural, but what is natural is wrong in this context. Committing to actually making *different* moves, not just the same ones with new things stuck on top is the key, and the intention to do that needs to be there before you even start swinging.

[ezra76]

I found some old videos from about 2008 or 09. I was playing to 8.8, which I'd love to get to again. 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns4FSl5FZfs

Edited January 9, 2023 by ezra76

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, ezra76 said:

I found some old videos from about 2008 or 09. I was playing to 8.8, which I'd love to get to again. 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns4FSl5FZfs

That feels to me like a classic example of age/speed changes. All the same flaws are there, you're just younger and faster so you're able to compensate for them. When we get older and less flexible those flaws start revealing themselves and the difficult shift is relearning how to move in a way that is fundamentally correct that doesn't require the compensations you're physically not able to do as consistently anymore. 

[Golf_Goof]

@Valtiel check your PMs please and thanks.

[ezra76]

Messing around with some one handed wedges. I grabbed my pants at left hip to hold it back then pull it around

 

Helping with wrist issue too. 

 

Thanks for getting me heading the right direction guys. I thought I had been on the right track and may have never known where to go.

 

 

 

 

[ezra76]

Been doing a ton of drills without a ball. Just did a short session hitting 80-100yd. shots. Little draws this way and then cuts coming back. It might not look like much but it's feeling a lot better. Playing 18 tomorrow so we'll see. 

 

Malaska golf has some great videos past few days collabing with Cogorno golf.

 

 

 

[llewol007]

Off season work on your short game and putting and probably get you into the high single digits

[ezra76]

I got that hanger training aid. Man this thing gets the irons and wedges crispy. 

 

 

[ezra76]

Now we're getting somewhere. I think this Hanger aid is a winner. Too bad I messed up last hole. I'm gonna piss some people off coming into the season 15.9 if this sticks. 

[ezra76]

Full swing getting much better. I hit 8 and 9GiR last 2 rounds. The 8 could've been 11 if 15-20mph wind hadn't carried those 3 pretty much perfectly struck shots too deep bouncing off the back of hard greens. 

 

Anyway little swing update with the Hanger aid. 

[ezra76]

Played the little 1st Tee par 3 course with the family. Holes are 70 to 140yds.. My 9yr.old made his 1st birdie, 80yds. to 2 feet with a 7iron. 

 

I got a nice confindence booster. Hit 6/9 greens and actually made some putts for a change.