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Is the lag shot training aid legal to


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Here's some public words from the USGA on the theme of training aids/clubs.

 

"If it's a club (shaft and clubhead designed to hit a golf ball), then it counts as one of your 14, even if non-conforming. Think of a weighted training club or the old "jointed" training clubs.

A training aid without a striking face is a training aid which can be carried and would not count as a club - but could not be used during the round without breaching Rule 4.3."

 

So the lag shot is a club and must be counted. A player that adds a lag shot to a bag already containing 14 other clubs will be in breach of 4.1b. It is non-conforming due to the flexible shaft (it does not have a straight shaft) so cannot be used to make a stroke during a round.

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6 hours ago, antip said:

Here's some public words from the USGA on the theme of training aids/clubs.

 

"If it's a club (shaft and clubhead designed to hit a golf ball), then it counts as one of your 14, even if non-conforming. Think of a weighted training club or the old "jointed" training clubs.

 

A training aid without a striking face is a training aid which can be carried and would not count as a club - but could not be used during the round without breaching Rule 4.3."

 

So the lag shot is a club and must be counted. A player that adds a lag shot to a bag already containing 14 other clubs will be in breach of 4.1b. It is non-conforming due to the flexible shaft (it does not have a straight shaft) so cannot be used to make a stroke during a round.

 

You seemed to have stopped 1 step short.

 

So if it is a "club" counting towards the 14 but can't be used, due to being non-conforming, if I have 13 clubs + this one, I haven't violated the 14 club rule and can carry it.

 

But is it also (still) a training aid, even though it HAS a striking face ? So can it (still) not be used, even for practice swings and even though it's counted as a 14th (non-conforming) club ?

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11 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

You seemed to have stopped 1 step short.

 

So if it is a "club" counting towards the 14 but can't be used, due to being non-conforming, if I have 13 clubs + this one, I haven't violated the 14 club rule and can carry it.

 

But is it also (still) a training aid, even though it HAS a striking face ? So can it (still) not be used, even for practice swings and even though it's counted as a 14th (non-conforming) club ?

 

Yes. No strokes, practice swings, or any other use that could help the player prepare for, or make a stroke. You could use it for general stretching though. Rule 4.3.

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10 hours ago, antip said:

Here's some public words from the USGA on the theme of training aids/clubs.

 

"If it's a club (shaft and clubhead designed to hit a golf ball), then it counts as one of your 14, even if non-conforming. Think of a weighted training club or the old "jointed" training clubs.

A training aid without a striking face is a training aid which can be carried and would not count as a club - but could not be used during the round without breaching Rule 4.3."

 

So the lag shot is a club and must be counted. A player that adds a lag shot to a bag already containing 14 other clubs will be in breach of 4.1b. It is non-conforming due to the flexible shaft (it does not have a straight shaft) so cannot be used to make a stroke during a round.

It does look like it has a straight shaft.  Does a club's very flexible straight shaft make it non-conforming?

Further, how does one differentiate such a club as a training aid?

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15 minutes ago, rogolf said:

It does look like it has a straight shaft.  Does a club's very flexible straight shaft make it non-conforming?

Further, how does one differentiate such a club as a training aid?

 

I read the Equipment Rules about shaft before answering and could not find anything that would render this lag training club non-conforming.

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4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You seemed to have stopped 1 step short.

 

So if it is a "club" counting towards the 14 but can't be used, due to being non-conforming, if I have 13 clubs + this one, I haven't violated the 14 club rule and can carry it.

 

But is it also (still) a training aid, even though it HAS a striking face ? So can it (still) not be used, even for practice swings and even though it's counted as a 14th (non-conforming) club ?

 

Any club you are carrying counts as one of the clubs you are carrying.

 

Any training aid designed for golf you may not use during a round.

 

Now this is a real conundrum...

 

 

Edited by Mr. Bean
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I've never seen one of these things in person, but from appearances, it's a 7iron. A weird 7i, but a 7i nonetheless.

 

As a result, I'd be pressed to think that one could just put this club in the bag and be good.

 

But then again, I'm not a rules guru, nor would I ever be inclined to carry a training aid around in my bag. Damn thing is heavy enough already.

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Simply from the top of my head I am inclined to say that a club (also a training aid) that a player is carrying not to be used for play but for training or similar is regarded as a training aid and use of that would be a breach of Rule 4.3a(6). Following that path this particular "club" is not to be counted as one of the 14 maximum.

 

I leave this question to be solved by the Ruling Bodies as it seems to be far too complicated to solve by reading the Rules, at least for me. Good night.

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Is it a club? Clearly so as the USGA words indicate. So it counts, as I and others have noted.

 

Is it a conforming club? Obviously, simply having some flexibility in a shaft does not make a club non-conforming or there would probably be no conforming clubs. The only one of these things I have seen close up had been well-exercised and the shaft was not entirely straight. So that one, for sure, was non-conforming. Are they all like that when you get them close up? I don't know.

 

Is it a training aid? This is a case by case assessment. As with the information issued by RBs on marker/alignment devices, the answer is based on a full assessment of the product which includes manufacturers claims and all other available evidence. In the case of lag shot, I can think of no possible argument that would suggest it is not a training aid.

 

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2 hours ago, antip said:

Is it a club? Clearly so as the USGA words indicate. So it counts, as I and others have noted.

 

Is it a conforming club? Obviously, simply having some flexibility in a shaft does not make a club non-conforming or there would probably be no conforming clubs. The only one of these things I have seen close up had been well-exercised and the shaft was not entirely straight. So that one, for sure, was non-conforming. Are they all like that when you get them close up? I don't know.

 

Is it a training aid? This is a case by case assessment. As with the information issued by RBs on marker/alignment devices, the answer is based on a full assessment of the product which includes manufacturers claims and all other available evidence. In the case of lag shot, I can think of no possible argument that would suggest it is not a training aid.

 

Is it possible that a conforming club can also be a training aid?  Maybe you have some examples to share?

Edited by rogolf
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4 hours ago, rogolf said:

Is it possible that a conforming club can also be a training aid?  Maybe you have some examples to share?

 

 

Here's some further public comments by David Staebler:

 

"There are clubs. 1) things with a shaft 2) a club head and 3) maybe a grip (but not a grip is not necessary). A club can be either conforming or non-conforming. In either case it counts as one of your clubs that get counted toward the 14 club limit.

If it is non-conforming, it can be so for a wide range of reasons, including that it's primary design is as a training aide (such as a medicus). But it could also be non-conforming due to a loose grip or a bent shaft. You may not make a stroke that counts in your score with these clubs. If you do, you have violated Rule 4.1a

If it crosses the line and is also a training aide, you may not make a golf swing (full or partial) with it without violating Rule 4.3 even it you have not violated 4.1a or b.

Then there are non-club training devices, such as the whippy shaft with the orange ball on the end. They do not meet the definiton of a club because they are missing one of the two above required elements. Non-club training devices do NOT count as one of your clubs. While you may do some things with these devices during a round, you may not make a golf swing (full or partial) with them without violating Rule 4.3. "

 

Draw your own conclusion, but this suggests to me that a lag shot is a club and if it is conforming it is most definitely a training aid, because that is clearly it's primary design aim. 

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So we have a club that is a training aid. As it is a club it counts as one of the 14 but as it is a training aid you are not allowed to use it during your round.

 

This is what i suspected but did not really think to be possible as it sounds so stupid. Then again, nobody is forcing you to carry that lag thing in your bag during your round.

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What if I take a conforming seven iron (maybe even the same model as my normal seven) and change the shaft, putting in the whippiest shaft I can buy, or maybe even a shaft taken from the club mentioned in this thread? Can I count that as one of my 14, and swing it from time to time during my round to help me keep a good tempo, even though I never use it to strike a ball? Or have I created a training aid of my own?

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20 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

What if I take a conforming seven iron (maybe even the same model as my normal seven) and change the shaft, putting in the whippiest shaft I can buy, or maybe even a shaft taken from the club mentioned in this thread? Can I count that as one of my 14, and swing it from time to time during my round to help me keep a good tempo, even though I never use it to strike a ball? Or have I created a training aid of my own?

 

What if you just took your 14 club set and played golf..?

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Its not the shaft or the fact that it is a training aid that determines if it conforms with the USGA rules of golf, it is down to the grooves on the clubface. They must be "U" Grooves and tested / passed by the USGA, if they don't appear on the list in the golf club conforming list (grooves) then the club is illegal for tournament play

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/grooves/informational-club-database.html

 

You can search brand names here, but lagshot does not show up, whereas GForce does which is a training aid with a flexible shaft

 

 https://www.usga.org/InfoClubsDB/Search.aspx

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1 hour ago, 3DGuy said:

Its not the shaft or the fact that it is a training aid that determines if it conforms with the USGA rules of golf, it is down to the grooves on the clubface. They must be "U" Grooves and tested / passed by the USGA, if they don't appear on the list in the golf club conforming list (grooves) then the club is illegal for tournament play

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/grooves/informational-club-database.html

 

You can search brand names here, but lagshot does not show up, whereas GForce does which is a training aid with a flexible shaft

 

 https://www.usga.org/InfoClubsDB/Search.aspx

The absence from the list may simply mean the manufacturer hasn't submitted the club for testing, its possible the club IS legal, including the grooves.  From the manufacturer's standpoint, why submit the club for testing if they're only planning to market it as a training aid?  Still, I'd consider it a club which would count towards the 14-club limit.  It may or may not be conforming.   

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8 hours ago, davep043 said:

The absence from the list may simply mean the manufacturer hasn't submitted the club for testing, its possible the club IS legal, including the grooves.  From the manufacturer's standpoint, why submit the club for testing if they're only planning to market it as a training aid?  Still, I'd consider it a club which would count towards the 14-club limit.  It may or may not be conforming.   

Precisely. The interests that sell this product are very clear it is a training aid. As such it can't be used during a scoring round. Conformity or not is irrelevant to whether it counts as one of the 14 or whether it can be used.

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On 1/18/2023 at 4:33 AM, 3DGuy said:

 

You can search brand names here, but lagshot does not show up, whereas GForce does which is a training aid with a flexible shaft

 

 

On 1/18/2023 at 6:33 AM, davep043 said:

The absence from the list may simply mean the manufacturer hasn't submitted the club for testing, its possible the club IS legal, including the grooves.  From the manufacturer's standpoint, why submit the club for testing if they're only planning to market it as a training aid?  Still, I'd consider it a club which would count towards the 14-club limit.  It may or may not be conforming.   

 

16 hours ago, antip said:

Precisely. The interests that sell this product are very clear it is a training aid. As such it can't be used during a scoring round. Conformity or not is irrelevant to whether it counts as one of the 14 or whether it can be used.

 

The GForce is an interesting case. It is conforming and it is marketed both as a training aid and "legal for tournament play". 

 

If a player falls in love with the GForce, hits the ball perfectly with it, it's used as a "golf club" and not as a "training aid" in rounds, i.e. it is used for striking the golf ball in real competition when in appropriate situations for yardage/ballflight/etc and not merely used for practice swings...

 

Has the player violated any rules? Is it a legal golf club or is it a training aid? 

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