Caddie Tending the Flag

[ilikegolf26]

With the rule change that you can leave the flag in when on the green, if the caddie is tending the pin are they allowed to decide if they want to pull it or leave it in after the strike is made? Or if they tend it, do they have the remove the flag after the stroke is made?

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, ilikegolf26 said:

With the rule change that you can leave the flag in when on the green, if the caddie is tending the pin are they allowed to decide if they want to pull it or leave it in after the strike is made? Or if they tend it, do they have the remove the flag after the stroke is made?

When the caddie is attending the flagstick, it's normally done so the flagstick will be removed before the ball gets to the hole.  However, it the ball strikes an attended flagstick, it can be accidental or be due to deliberate actions of the person (may be a caddie) attending it.  If it is accidental, there is no penalty.  If it is deliberate, the player incurs the general penalty (two strokes in stroke play, loss of hole in match play).

[Mr. Bean]

12 minutes ago, rogolf said:

When the caddie is attending the flagstick, it's normally done so the flagstick will be removed before the ball gets to the hole.  However, it the ball strikes an attended flagstick, it can be accidental or be due to deliberate actions of the person (may be a caddie) attending it.  If it is accidental, there is no penalty.  If it is deliberate, the player incurs the general penalty (two strokes in stroke play, loss of hole in match play).

 

To answer the question: No.

 

But if they fail to do that it may result in a penalty.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[davep043]

The OP asked two questions, either/or, and the answers are no and yes.  If the caddie is attending the flag, he's (generally) required to pull it.  If he accidentally fails to pull it, and the ball strikes the flagstick, or if the ball accidentally strikes the caddie, there's no penalty.  This is all in 13.2(b).

 

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, davep043 said:

The OP asked two questions, either/or, and the answers are no and yes.  If the caddie is attending the flag, he's (generally) required to pull it.  If he accidentally fails to pull it, and the ball strikes the flagstick, or if the ball accidentally strikes the caddie, there's no penalty.  This is all in 13.2(b).

 

 

This is one of the issues we have recently had as we have been translating the updated Rules. In the Rules it says "may" but some of us (not me...) want to translate that as "can", and that is just BS. I mean, anyone "can" do things but whether it is allowed to do is a different thing.

[Newby]

24 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

This is one of the issues we have recently had as we have been translating the updated Rules. In the Rules it says "may" but some of us (not me...) want to translate that as "can", and that is just BS. I mean, anyone "can" do things but whether it is allowed to do is a different thing.

As I often say 'If it says you can't, you can't but if it doesn't say you can't, then you may'

[antip]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

As I often say 'If it says you can't, you can't but if it doesn't say you can't, then you may'

An exception: 10.3b(3) doesn't say the caddie can't cancel an opponent stroke or invite an opponent to play first to save time, but the caddie cannot.

[ilikegolf26]

17 hours ago, davep043 said:

The OP asked two questions, either/or, and the answers are no and yes.  If the caddie is attending the flag, he's (generally) required to pull it.  If he accidentally fails to pull it, and the ball strikes the flagstick, or if the ball accidentally strikes the caddie, there's no penalty.  This is all in 13.2(b).

 

Thanks. This came up a while back where we had a guy tending the pin and when one of the players hit their putt they called for him to “leave it in” so the guy backed off and left it in. I guess because he thought he may have hit it too hard the flag would deaden it if he hit it instead of the hole without the flag. 

[davep043]

18 minutes ago, ilikegolf26 said:

Thanks. This came up a while back where we had a guy tending the pin and when one of the players hit their putt they called for him to “leave it in” so the guy backed off and left it in. I guess because he thought he may have hit it too hard the flag would deaden it if he hit it instead of the hole without the flag. 

Yeah, that's not allowed, he'd have been penalized if his putt had hit the flagstick.  A little detail, intentionally leaving the flagstick in place after having it tended is penalized only if the ball hits the flagstick.  However, if the player had initially decided to leave the flagstick in, and then has his caddie remove it while the ball is in motion to affect where the player’s ball in motion might come to rest, the player is penalized no matter what happens.  One is "result based", while the other is "intent based".

[Mr. Bean]

Nice answer, Dave. Well done.

[OnTheBag]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

Yeah, that's not allowed, he'd have been penalized if his putt had hit the flagstick.  A little detail, intentionally leaving the flagstick in place after having it tended is penalized only if the ball hits the flagstick.  However, if the player had initially decided to leave the flagstick in, and then has his caddie remove it while the ball is in motion to affect where the player’s ball in motion might come to rest, the player is penalized no matter what happens.  One is "result based", while the other is "intent based".

Great answer here.  In a "Caddying for Dummies" version (from a lifetime looper)......if the caddy is attending the stick, they must pull it once the ball is in motion.  If the stick strikes the ball, then a penalty stroke is assessed.  I'm sure there's some gray area in the rules that I'm not thinking of, but I've found that if you boil it down to basics, fewer people get confused.  

[jobin]

"If the stick strikes the ball, then a penalty stroke is assessed. "

I have never seen the stick strike the ball. The opposite, many times.

[rogolf]

5 hours ago, OnTheBag said:

Great answer here.  In a "Caddying for Dummies" version (from a lifetime looper)......if the caddy is attending the stick, they must pull it once the ball is in motion.  If the stick strikes the ball, then a penalty stroke is assessed.  I'm sure there's some gray area in the rules that I'm not thinking of, but I've found that if you boil it down to basics, fewer people get confused.  

See the second post for if a two stroke penalty would apply. 

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, jobin said:

"If the stick strikes the ball, then a penalty stroke is assessed. "

I have never seen the stick strike the ball. The opposite, many times.

 

That happens when someone is careless when removing the pin.

[jobin]

So, what if the flag stick simply will not conform and stand up straight?  From 30 feet, the player wants the stick in but standing up, not leaning to one side. All attempts to  make it stand straight fail, so player asks another to hold the stick vertical in the cup.

Player than asks holder to face away from line of putt so that there can be no question of intent to move the stick and influence the ball. 

 

If the ball then hits the stick and drops into the cup, even as the holder does not see this happen, i'd say 'one putt, no penalty'.  IMO, in golf, we must accept some of nature's vagaries, but not necessarily man-made conditions.  Human error permitted the cup to accumulate sand, rubbish, whatever which caused the tilted stick.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, jobin said:

So, what if the flag stick simply will not conform and stand up straight?  From 30 feet, the player wants the stick in but standing up, not leaning to one side. All attempts to  make it stand straight fail, so player asks another to hold the stick vertical in the cup.

Player than asks holder to face away from line of putt so that there can be no question of intent to move the stick and influence the ball. 

 

If the ball then hits the stick and drops into the cup, even as the holder does not see this happen, i'd say 'one putt, no penalty'.  IMO, in golf, we must accept some of nature's vagaries, but not necessarily man-made conditions.  Human error permitted the cup to accumulate sand, rubbish, whatever which caused the tilted stick.

That may be your opinion, but the Rules of Golf do not agree.  

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, jobin said:

So, what if the flag stick simply will not conform and stand up straight?  From 30 feet, the player wants the stick in but standing up, not leaning to one side. All attempts to  make it stand straight fail, so player asks another to hold the stick vertical in the cup.

Player than asks holder to face away from line of putt so that there can be no question of intent to move the stick and influence the ball. 

 

If the ball then hits the stick and drops into the cup, even as the holder does not see this happen, i'd say 'one putt, no penalty'.  IMO, in golf, we must accept some of nature's vagaries, but not necessarily man-made conditions.  Human error permitted the cup to accumulate sand, rubbish, whatever which caused the tilted stick.

In the situation that you've described, I would rule that it was deliberate and a penalty (and a deliberate, but unsuccessful, attempt to circumvent the Rule).

[davep043]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

In the situation that you've described, I would rule that it was deliberate and a penalty (and a deliberate, but unsuccessful, attempt to circumvent the Rule).

Under 11.2b(2) (I'm looking at the 2023 Rules now), the stroke would be cancelled and replayed, and the Player assessed the General Penalty.  

[jobin]

Well, rogolf, your opinion would be in error as there was no deliberate action, except keeping the stick straight. Here the rules are penalizing the victim of careless greenskeeping.

 

Odd occurrence last week when i was asked to remove the stick from the hole. I pulled the stick up and the entire steel cup and plastic liner also came up out of the ground. The thing weighed, oh about one kilo, stuck on the end of the stick waving in the wind above the hole in the ground.

 

So what to do?  Answer the Q according to 'common sense', and according to the RULE. 

[davep043]

15 minutes ago, jobin said:

Well, rogolf, your opinion would be in error as there was no deliberate action,

As defined in the rules, the caddie was attending the flagstick.  The caddie deliberately allowed the flag stick to remain in the hole, and the ball struck the flagstick.  That incurs the General Penalty, and the stroke must be replayed.  @rogolf was absolutely correct.

In the new situation, the hole liner is a moveable obstruction.  If the putt hits the moveable obstruction, you simply replay the stroke, no penalty.  Exception 2 to 11.1b.

[Colin L]

On 12/14/2022 at 12:08 AM, jobin said:

So, what if the flag stick simply will not conform and stand up straight?  From 30 feet, the player wants the stick in but standing up, not leaning to one side. All attempts to  make it stand straight fail, so player asks another to hold the stick vertical in the cup.

Player than asks holder to face away from line of putt so that there can be no question of intent to move the stick and influence the ball. 

 

If the ball then hits the stick and drops into the cup, even as the holder does not see this happen, i'd say 'one putt, no penalty'.  IMO, in golf, we must accept some of nature's vagaries, but not necessarily man-made conditions.  Human error permitted the cup to accumulate sand, rubbish, whatever which caused the tilted stick.

Bt standing  holding the flagstick, the other play is considered to be tending it.   !3.2b(1) is simple and clear (my emphasis):

 

The player is treated as having authorized the flagstickto be attended if:

The player’s caddie is holding the flagstick in, above or next to the hole or is standing right next to the hole when the stroke is made, even if the player is not aware the caddie is doing so,

The player asks any other person to attend the flagstick and that person does so

 

13.2b(2) is equally clear.  A player who is attending the flagstick is penalised if he deliberately deflects or stops the ball.  And the meaning of deliberately deflected  or stopped includes deliberately failing to remove the flagstick from the hole and allowing the ball to strike it.

 

All in all, there is no way out for this player no matter in what direction he is  facing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[st1800e]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:30 PM, davep043 said:

If he accidentally fails to pull it,

Not much of a caddy.  What’s the “accident”? Ok, if he has a heart attack while the ball is rolling to the hole…

[Colin L]

4 hours ago, st1800e said:

Not much of a caddy.  What’s the “accident”? Ok, if he has a heart attack while the ball is rolling to the hole…

How about the caddie being distracted and not noticing that his player had putted?

[davep043]

7 hours ago, st1800e said:

Not much of a caddy.  What’s the “accident”? Ok, if he has a heart attack while the ball is rolling to the hole…

I've seen flagsticks stick in the hole, sometimes just a little grit between the liner and the flagstick, sometimes just pulling at a slightly wrong angle.  Accidents do happen.  Its also important to remember that anyone can attend the flagstick, or be treated as attending the flagstick.  If a person is standing next to the hole, and the Player is aware of his presence, the flagstick is being attended.  If that person isn't actually paying attention and wanders off, he hasn't left the flagstick in the hole with the intention of deflecting the putt, that falls under the "accidental" category.

[limegreengent]

“No penalty for accidentally not removing the flagstick “

.

 In my opinion one of several  nonsense  (“ mamby pampby “ ) changes in the rules that gives an  unnecessary opportunity  / loophole for those concerned  to avoid a penalty- whether based on ignorance or desire.

No change was necessary - a player must learn to take some responsibility  - not be mollycoddled by the authorities - and totally unfair to the rest of the field.

IMO

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by limegreengent

[Colin L]

Just a guess.   You feel quite strongly about it?   😃

[halliedog]

Why would you have the caddie tend the pin in the first place now that you can leave it in?

[Augster]

3 hours ago, halliedog said:

Why would you have the caddie tend the pin in the first place now that you can leave it in?

A putt is long enough, or hilly enough, that I want to see the cup more easily, but I never want the pin left in yo deflect the ball out. Which happens all the time. 
 

It was weird, after 2020 and not able to touch sticks for a while, to ask people to once again attend the flag. But it’s 2023 now and I ask whenever I need it. 
 

The last time I putted with the stick in, I had chipped it to 6 inches. Walked up to tap it in, it hit the center of the stick and popped right back to me. 
 

That was the last time I’m putting anything I think I can make with the stick in.