Fact or Fiction? PD Iron "Hot Spots"

[jholz]

7 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I agree with that - until.   
 

until you put it into direct context against other options.  It’s not a black white thing.  It’s a grey all the way thing.  So it’s yes no maybe so.  Lol.   If you compare say i500 to t100 you’ll get different results is all I’m saying.  And depending on who you are those results may swing to one or two opposing ends of a spectrum.   To some ( me ) the t100 is vastly easier to hit.  Why ? Because it’s miss is a hair short and it’s not extremely penal even on toe side misses.  On the other hand the i500 would produce those “ see ya  touch them all “ low spin bombs with long irons or produce a two club short thin miss.  Again. With long irons.  You’d think you’d prefer the long irons and hate  the short. No.  I actually loved the 7-gap i500 and hated the 4-6.  
 

anotjer anecdotal but real example , when Victor hovland came on the scene , and they tried to get him into ping irons.  He went with i210 short irons and iblade long.  A reverse combo set.  I suspect for the same reason.   They then ground him a complete set of i210 , as custom as can be to move things around until he played a whole set.  Be it sole , Vcog or both.  It can be a real thing.  
 

im not poo pooing on any design.  But we can’t ignore reality either.  

 

Yeah, I can't deny the point.

 

Interesting stuff about Hovland. As an i210 user myself, and general liker of Hovland, I've been pretty interested in his iron setup - as well as the idiosyncrasies of the i210. Their combo of higher VCOG and traditional Ping soles/bounce is something of an oddity. But jeesh do they work when you get comfortable with them...

 

In any event, I suppose that for me, the real issue is whether we look at "hotspots" (or perhaps just "greater dispersion among misses") as a design flaw - or an undesirable, yet intended, design feature. 

 

For my money, any iron that achieves similar ballspeeds "across the face" is going to result in wider dispersion of misses.

 

For those that have trouble finding the center of the face, that forgiveness could be a great benefit - but it comes with a downside. That "benefit" might help you on one shot and absolutely kill you on another. But, that's not a design flaw. It is an intended result - and those results should stay "relatively" consistent with similar strike locations and impact conditions. 

 

It's essentially the compromise you are forced to accept when you look for "increased forgiveness" in an iron.

 

That's very different from someone saying:

 

"I hit this club the exact same way twice, from the exact the same lie and precisely the same conditions, and one time it went 150 and the other time it went 180."

 

To my mind, that scenario just doesn't happen.

 

 

 

 

 

[cardia10]

This is real life example of my experience with TM P790s, which I've been bashed on before, but I'll tell it again. I usually play Ping S55 irons at stock lofts, 7 iron would go 160-165. Got a set of P790s and tried them out in the member guest for the first round. Par 3 that plays around 170-175 and I think, these things are stronger lofted, let me try a 7 iron. Ball flies into tree behind the green at 210. I think wow, that is what the center of the face feels like. Next day, I'm thinking, let me try the 7 again. This time, ball flies expected about 175 to back middle of green. These are clean lies on a tee box. I mainly noticed it in 7-PW as they were just very inconsistent with distances. I'm very low spin with irons so these may just not be for me, but when you have 5-45 yardage gaps that are super inconsistent, it isn't worth the cost. The long irons are easy to hit, but when you call a 19* club a 5 iron, I would expect it to go a little longer than most standard 5 irons. 

[gators78]

28 minutes ago, Bye said:

Tiger always talks about distance control, which in essence is controlling the flight and spin as much as possible.   

 

He spoke again about it at the Hero last week, being pin high, hitting your number. It is tough to do this with no spin on the ball. 

 

Exactly, and why there has been minimal difference in iron technology the top Tour players have used in the last 40+ years. It’s weight tolerances, finishing, and manufacturing consistency. The other issue is a lot of things out on the golf course (sand, moisture, debris, grass, etc) more often than not take spin off a ball, so just my opinion, when fitted in a bay to an already low spin number to max the distance, it can get iffy out on the course. 

[dvq9654]

This topic has got to be up there with blade vs. GI arguments in that it’s recurring and heated. Not saying that in a negative way. Just an observation. 
 

Purely anecdotal evidence from a golfer who plays at times with Apex Pros, blades and players irons: I don’t believe in the concept of hot spots because I’ve never experienced it. I can think of a handful of times, at most, in the hundreds of rounds I’ve played where I hit a shot and had it be unusually long (meaning flies higher and longer than expected). In all cases, it was usually because the ball was above my feet, which has a tendency to negate some of my swing flaws and resulted in true center face contact with better impact conditions. This is a me issue, not a club issue. 

I have missed long plenty of times cause the contact results in a ball that rolls farther than it should, but again that’s cause I didn’t hit the ball well. Has nothing to do with the club. 
 

Alternatively, I have definitely missed short a million times because a blade is less forgiving on thin shots or because I hit the ball poorly. These same shots would not miss nearly as short with my Apex Pros, but, again, nothing to do with a club being hot vs not. 

 

My experience leads me to think this is generally an attribution error, where people attribute a result to the club vs themselves. We all do this from time to time (that jerk talked in my backswing!), but for those who are less in tune with their swing / golf in general, it’s an easier excuse than realizing you hit it 2 grooves low or high 90% of the time, so anything center contact is a surprise and therefore due to some issue outside your control. 
 

Realize this is purely anecdotal so easily dismissed, but I’m skeptical of the concept. 

[Bye]

45 minutes ago, gators78 said:

 

Exactly, and why there has been minimal difference in iron technology the top Tour players have used in the last 40+ years. It’s weight tolerances, finishing, and manufacturing consistency. The other issue is a lot of things out on the golf course (sand, moisture, debris, grass, etc) more often than not take spin off a ball, so just my opinion, when fitted in a bay to an already low spin number to max the distance, it can get iffy out on the course. 

Agreed, it’s completely about what works on the course. 

[Red4282]

Can the answer be a yes AND no? The answer is in its design. Technically, any iron with a flex face high COR design DOES have a hotspot. So does a non High COR design. Its called the sweetspot! The sweet spot IS hotter on a high COR design versus those that do not. You see this with increased smash factor. 
 

For example, on sweet spot hits with a PD iron you might see smash numbers near driver/3 wood efficiency (1.4-1.45), where as a traditonal iron with same loft may only see 1.35-1.39 ish. Then take it to mishits, you start to see the drop off on the PD is much greater and often find smash numbers very similar to the non PD design. This is why the best in the world dont generally play PD irons other than maybe a few long irons. They desire more consistency across the whole face, especially with scoring clubs. (A smash variance of .10 is better/more desirable to them than a smash variance of .15).
 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Red4282

[gators78]

3 hours ago, dvq9654 said:

This topic has got to be up there with blade vs. GI arguments in that it’s recurring and heated. Not saying that in a negative way. Just an observation. 
 

Purely anecdotal evidence from a golfer who plays at times with Apex Pros, blades and players irons: I don’t believe in the concept of hot spots because I’ve never experienced it. I can think of a handful of times, at most, in the hundreds of rounds I’ve played where I hit a shot and had it be unusually long (meaning flies higher and longer than expected). In all cases, it was usually because the ball was above my feet, which has a tendency to negate some of my swing flaws and resulted in true center face contact with better impact conditions. This is a me issue, not a club issue. 

I have missed long plenty of times cause the contact results in a ball that rolls farther than it should, but again that’s cause I didn’t hit the ball well. Has nothing to do with the club. 
 

Alternatively, I have definitely missed short a million times because a blade is less forgiving on thin shots or because I hit the ball poorly. These same shots would not miss nearly as short with my Apex Pros, but, again, nothing to do with a club being hot vs not. 

 

My experience leads me to think this is generally an attribution error, where people attribute a result to the club vs themselves. We all do this from time to time (that jerk talked in my backswing!), but for those who are less in tune with their swing / golf in general, it’s an easier excuse than realizing you hit it 2 grooves low or high 90% of the time, so anything center contact is a surprise and therefore due to some issue outside your control. 
 

Realize this is purely anecdotal so easily dismissed, but I’m skeptical of the concept. 

 

It’s pretty simple, but I will add I think some swings are more susceptible to the problem (e.g. me). 

 

A ball struck below the center of gravity on the club will launch lower and spin more (extreme example are the bottom grove wedge shots that bite a ton) and a ball struck above the COG will launch higher with less spin (that high toe driver shot that rolls forever). This is basic gear effect with clubs, all clubs have it, although most people are familiar with heel-toe dispersion. 

 

I have a steep angle of attack, if I get the COG really far below that ball it’ll launch higher with less spin. Throw in a performance face iron that can retain the ball speed, some water or grass, and that ball launches 4-5* higher with 2-3000 less spin, I just turned a 7 iron into a cut down 7 wood. I was fit for irons and my old set had literally a 30 yard dispersion on my 6 iron, the fitter was like every now and then you’re launching it at about 20* with mid 3000s spin, as someone said, that’s the touch-em-all homerun ball. 

 

Last point, there was a great WRX Gear Dive podcast with Elkington and Johnny Wunder asked why he switched from the beautiful Titleist blades he’s played forever to PXG. He said the PXGs are like two clubs in one, I can hit it on the bottom and it performs like a normal iron, or I can hit it towards the top and it goes almost a club farther, it gives me options.

 

[Roejye]

I think it's possible that when PD irons first arrived on the scene hot spots could have been a thing. However I think it's more likely that their design made catching a flier more likely. I really only have one anecdote about getting a hot spot. I play a set that the low and mid irons are hollow bodied so they could be considered PD irons. I once had a 7 iron go 178, but it was out of some light rough and I put a good swing on it. I think it was a combination of flier lie, swing mechanics lining up, and good contact. It was also mid July so that probably helped too.

 

Then there are the times when the shot suits your eye and you're filled with confidence and you put a good swing on it and hit it about 10 yards past where you usually hit it. There's just so much variability in the person's swing, especially at my level, that I can't blame anything on my equipment.

[Bye]

Please can someone tell me what PD stands for? I am feeling old not knowing the lingo, it is bad enough that my kids are now showing me how electronic items work. 

[North Butte]

2 minutes ago, Bye said:

Please can someone tell me what PD stands for? I am feeling old not knowing the lingo, it is bad enough that my kids are now showing me how electronic items work. 

PD iron == "Players Distance Iron"

 

A marketing category that's highly touted by OEM's nowadays. 

[bladehunter]

11 minutes ago, Bye said:

Please can someone tell me what PD stands for? I am feeling old not knowing the lingo, it is bad enough that my kids are now showing me how electronic items work. 

I was just about to ask that too. Thank you. 

[ChaosTheory]

I switch between a PD iron, the Maltby TS2, and a solid iron, another Maltby.  Same shafts.  I’m a slow swing, lower spin player.  If I play a softer lower spinning ball, I’ll get short iron flyers with the TS2.  A firmer premium ball works fine though.
 

So I think it’s all about not enough spin.  They probably aren’t right for everyone.  

[Bye]

28 minutes ago, North Butte said:

PD iron == "Players Distance Iron"

 

A marketing category that's highly touted by OEM's nowadays. 

Thank you!