What's the ruling; unlikely hypothetical

[SE Gamer]

Match play setting. Player A narrowly misses a putt, with the ball coming to rest right on the lip. Player B says, "you're good" (as in conceding the next putt). As Player A walks over to retrieve his ball, it falls into the hole. No influence by either player. Let's just say a large wind gust was the cause. And Player A was making his way to the ball in a reasonable time (i.e. the 10 second clock wouldn't have even started yet). 

 

So, given the next putt was already conceded, does the ball falling in count? As in, the "conceded" putt is ultimately negated?

[sui generis]

I'd suggest that you consult the rule book here:

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=3&subrulenum=2

 

nb While this is the 2023 Rule, I don't believe 2019 will produce a different result. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by sui generis

[SE Gamer]

3 minutes ago, sui generis said:

I'd suggest that you consult the rule book here:

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=3&subrulenum=2

 

That doesn't necessarily provide a definitive answer. One portion of the rules states concessions are final, and cannot be contested. But another portion indicates the concession doesn't matter if the ball is still in motion. 

For which the latter, I would think both sides could hotly debate whether the putt ever came to an absolute rest.

[2bGood]

16 minutes ago, SE Gamer said:

 

That doesn't necessarily provide a definitive answer. One portion of the rules states concessions are final, and cannot be contested. But another portion indicates the concession doesn't matter if the ball is still in motion. 

For which the latter, I would think both sides could hotly debate whether the putt ever came to an absolute rest.

Keep reading the rules as they do tell you when a ball is considered at rest when overhanging the hole. 

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-13.html

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by 2bGood

[SE Gamer]

13 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Keep reading the rules as they do tell you when a ball is considered at rest when overhanging the hole. 

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-13.html

 

 

OK. That portion is more applicable. So it counts. And had Player B been in a position to tap the ball back to Player A, the ball would have been counted as holed on the previous stroke. 

[2bGood]

6 minutes ago, SE Gamer said:

 

OK. That portion is more applicable. So it counts. And had Player B been in a position to tap the ball back to Player A, the ball would have been counted as holed on the previous stroke. 

Correct 3.2b covers what would occur if the player batted the ball back. 

[antip]

5 hours ago, SE Gamer said:

 

OK. That portion is more applicable. So it counts. And had Player B been in a position to tap the ball back to Player A, the ball would have been counted as holed on the previous stroke. 

Yes, if B interferes with A's overhanging ball within the time period, it counts as holed regardless of whether the ball actually fell in. You cannot interfere with someone else's overhanging ball, period.

[Colin L]

This is getting very confusing.

In the initial question it is  stated  that the ball had come to rest on the lip of the hole and that we should take it that a gust of wind blew it into the hole.  That changes to the possibility that the ball was still in motion and then the situation of  a ball overhanging the hole is introduced which is quite different from the one asked about.   It isn't correct to say a concession doesn't matter if the ball is in motion. A concession of a stroke can be made any time before the opponent's next stroke.  If made while the opponent's ball is in motion, the concession applies to the next stroke unless the ball is holed.  This last point would only be relevant if the ball had been overhanging the hole.

 

According to the original question, we have a ball at rest on the lip of the hole and the next stroke conceded. a not uncommon situation and a simple one.    As I see it, the opponent has completed the hole, the conceded stroke counting in his score.  What happens to or is done to his ball after that is immaterial.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Colin L

[sui generis]

4 hours ago, Colin L said:

According to the original question, we have a ball at rest on the lip of the hole and the next stroke conceded. a not uncommon situation and a simple one.    As I see it, the opponent has completed the hole, the conceded stroke counting in his score.  What happens to or is done to his ball after that is immaterial.

 

That's what I read, also. However, as it often happens, an OP subsequently changes the narrative or adds contradictory "facts." 🙄

[antip]

4 hours ago, Colin L said:

This is getting very confusing.

In the initial question it is  stated  that the ball had come to rest on the lip of the hole and that we should take it that a gust of wind blew it into the hole.  That changes to the possibility that the ball was still in motion and then the situation of  a ball overhanging the hole is introduced which is quite different from the one asked about.   It isn't correct to say a concession doesn't matter if the ball is in motion. A concession of a stroke can be made any time before the opponent's next stroke.  If made while the opponent's ball is in motion, the concession applies to the next stroke unless the ball is holed.  This last point would only be relevant if the ball had been overhanging the hole.

 

According to the original question, we have a ball at rest on the lip of the hole and the next stroke conceded. a not uncommon situation and a simple one.    As I see it, the opponent has completed the hole, the conceded stroke counting in his score.  What happens to or is done to his ball after that is immaterial.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ball overhanging the hole is treated under Rule 13.3. It is a special case under the Rules. A player's perception of whether the ball is at rest is irrelevant. No player gets to override 13.3 by the expedient of "I believe it is at rest".

[david.c.w]

5 hours ago, antip said:

Yes, if B interferes with A's overhanging ball within the time period, it counts as holed regardless of whether the ball actually fell in. You cannot interfere with someone else's overhanging ball, period.

 

This just happened at the Solheim Cup last year.

 

 

 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, antip said:

Ball overhanging the hole is treated under Rule 13.3. It is a special case under the Rules. A player's perception of whether the ball is at rest is irrelevant. No player gets to override 13.3 by the expedient of "I believe it is at rest".

Sure.  I was taking the matter back to the original  terms of the question - a ball at rest  blown into the hole - in order to answer that as opposed to where the conversation had got to.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Colin L

[davep043]

I'm with a couple of others, the Ruling would depend on whether the ball is (temporarily) at rest somewhere near the hole, or whether it was "overhanging" the hole.  The OP's description of "right on the lip" implies, to me at least, that the ball was overhanging the hole, in which case 13.3 applies.  The concession wouldn't take effect until the "waiting time" has elapsed.  But if the ball is at rest without overhanging the hole, its the same as if its 10 feet away, the Concession counts.  If that ball is later moved by Natural Forces, its too late, the concession still applies.

[SE Gamer]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

I'm with a couple of others, the Ruling would depend on whether the ball is (temporarily) at rest somewhere near the hole, or whether it was "overhanging" the hole.  The OP's description of "right on the lip" implies, to me at least, that the ball was overhanging the hole, in which case 13.3 applies.  The concession wouldn't take effect until the "waiting time" has elapsed.  But if the ball is at rest without overhanging the hole, its the same as if its 10 feet away, the Concession counts.  If that ball is later moved by Natural Forces, its too late, the concession still applies.

 

Yes, my premise was that it was overhanging. The wind blowing it in probably should have been left out. I was just trying to ensure it was clear that the ball wasn't influenced by either player. As in it was settling, wind moved it slightly, etc.

[Colin L]

12 minutes ago, SE Gamer said:

 

Yes, my premise was that it was overhanging. The wind blowing it in probably should have been left out. I was just trying to ensure it was clear that the ball wasn't influenced by either player. As in it was settling, wind moved it slightly, etc.

It would have been helpful to have articulated your premise at the start.   But you have the answers now to both a ball on the lip of the hole but not overhanging and to one overhanging so all is good.

[sui generis]

Sometimes authoring a good question is as difficult as answering one . . . just ask the ruling bodies about that. 😉

[Augster]

If the ball has come to rest, visibly at rest, overhanging or not, then Player A concedes the next stroke, Player B takes the conceded score. If the ball falls in later it doesn’t matter. There was already a concession. 
 

As soon as that ball stops, even for a millisecond, I’m saying, “That’s good”. Always. I’m not waiting for the walk up and subsequent 10 seconds. If it’s at rest long enough for a player to walk up to it, it’s getting conceded as the player starts walking as, at that point, he also knows it’s not moving. 

[rogolf]

27 minutes ago, Augster said:

If the ball has come to rest, visibly at rest, overhanging or not, then Player A concedes the next stroke, Player B takes the conceded score. If the ball falls in later it doesn’t matter. There was already a concession. 
 

As soon as that ball stops, even for a millisecond, I’m saying, “That’s good”. Always. I’m not waiting for the walk up and subsequent 10 seconds. If it’s at rest long enough for a player to walk up to it, it’s getting conceded as the player starts walking as, at that point, he also knows it’s not moving. 

Just follow the Rules as outlined above. 

[davep043]

24 minutes ago, Augster said:

If the ball has come to rest, visibly at rest, overhanging or not, then Player A concedes the next stroke, Player B takes the conceded score. If the ball falls in later it doesn’t matter. There was already a concession. 
 

As soon as that ball stops, even for a millisecond, I’m saying, “That’s good”. Always. I’m not waiting for the walk up and subsequent 10 seconds. If it’s at rest long enough for a player to walk up to it, it’s getting conceded as the player starts walking as, at that point, he also knows it’s not moving. 

I'd suggest that if you may not concede your opponents next shot by lifting his ball, overhanging the hole, before the "waiting time" has elapsed, a verbal concession before the waiting time has elapsed would not be valid either.  I cannot find a specific rule that says this, but this would be treating similar situations similarly.  Can you find a specific rule that makes it clear, one way or another?

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, davep043 said:

I'd suggest that if you may not concede your opponents next shot by lifting his ball, overhanging the hole, before the "waiting time" has elapsed, a verbal concession before the waiting time has elapsed would not be valid either.  I cannot find a specific rule that says this, but this would be treating similar situations similarly.  Can you find a specific rule that makes it clear, one way or another?

I would think if one rule states you get reasonable time plus ten seconds to get to your ball to determine if it’s falling or not there should not be an available action by the opponent that can negate that right.

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, sui generis said:

Sometimes authoring a good question is as difficult as answering one . . . just ask the ruling bodies about that. 😉

 

LOL

 

That's true but I would think a "rulie", noting the question is asked by a "non-rulie" would immediately ask whether or not the ball was overhanging the lip since I'd expect a rulie to realize there were multiple scenarios possible.

 

As @davep043 noted, the verbiage "right on the lip" indicates, to ME at least, the OP meant overhanging the hole.

 

That aside, as mentioned earlier I would've thought it was an easy question to answer both ways.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

If the ball has come to rest, visibly at rest, overhanging or not, then Player A concedes the next stroke, Player B takes the conceded score. If the ball falls in later it doesn’t matter. There was already a concession. 
 

As soon as that ball stops, even for a millisecond, I’m saying, “That’s good”. Always. I’m not waiting for the walk up and subsequent 10 seconds. If it’s at rest long enough for a player to walk up to it, it’s getting conceded as the player starts walking as, at that point, he also knows it’s not moving. 

 

I suspect you're mistaken and davep is correct.

 

Do you have any references to support your position ?

 

I confess I didn't watch the whole video shown above but this exact situation happened at the Solheim Cup.

 

Nellie Korda hit a putt that hung on the lip. The Euro opponent picked up the ball conceding the next stroke.

 

The referee considered the ball holed with the previous shot since the Euro player didn't allow Nellie to walk to the hole and wait the 10 seconds.

[Augster]

Conceding Next Stroke. This is allowed any time before the opponent’s next stroke is made.
 

Seems pretty clear to me. “Any Time”. 
 

Also, the onus is NOT on me. The onus is on the opponent to know the rules. Once his ball has stopped, and CLEARLY it has stopped if he starts walking to the hole, I’m conceding his next stroke. 
 

If the ball subsequently falls in, and he wants to say it was holed, I’ll just show him the above. Then HE can make a claim if he doesn’t like it. And around and around it goes. 
 

There is no consensus here. So it’s a gray area.  Is there going to be a committee member or a ref that can unpeel the onion of this rule? 
 

I’ll cite 3.2b1. Ball was rolling, ball stopped, I conceded the next stroke before the opponent tapped in, then the ball fell. 
 

Most players don’t know they can make a claim. 🙂

 

 

[Halebopp]

4 hours ago, Augster said:

Conceding Next Stroke. This is allowed any time before the opponent’s next stroke is made.
 

Seems pretty clear to me. “Any Time”. 
 

Also, the onus is NOT on me. The onus is on the opponent to know the rules. Once his ball has stopped, and CLEARLY it has stopped if he starts walking to the hole, I’m conceding his next stroke. 
 

If the ball subsequently falls in, and he wants to say it was holed, I’ll just show him the above. Then HE can make a claim if he doesn’t like it. And around and around it goes. 
 

There is no consensus here. So it’s a gray area.  Is there going to be a committee member or a ref that can unpeel the onion of this rule? 
 

I’ll cite 3.2b1. Ball was rolling, ball stopped, I conceded the next stroke before the opponent tapped in, then the ball fell. 
 

Most players don’t know they can make a claim. 🙂

 

There is no gray area. Rule 3.2 tells us the concession applies to the next stroke and if the ball was holed with the previous stroke, the concession does not matter.

 

Rule 13.3 confirms players have the right to the ten-second waiting period once they get up to see the ball is overhanging the hole. In match play taking away that right results in the previous stroke being considered holed and in stroke play the ball is replaced and the player who moved the ball gets the general penalty.

[antip]

Agree there is no grey area, a concession by the opponent has no relevance within that defined time period. The specific rule overrides the general one.

This is one of two 'interesting' features of 13.3. The other is the player is free to tap in during the overhanging period (get there plus 10 seconds), and the stroke counts as normal with no penalties applying even if the overhanging ball was visibly still moving at the time. But for reasons that escape me, this case is not listed in 10.1d.

{I used the verb that begins with t and continues with rumps but it got hung up by the software.}

Edited December 25, 2022 by antip
see brackets

[antip]

why is that last post labelled as hidden?

Edited December 25, 2022 by antip

[QEight]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

I’ll cite 3.2b1. Ball was rolling, ball stopped, I conceded the next stroke before the opponent tapped in, then the ball fell. 
 

Most players don’t know they can make a claim. 🙂

So you are counting on opponent not knowing the rules? But when they know 13.3b you just lost the hole. And made a fool of youself.

[sui generis]

10 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

LOL

 

That's true but I would think a "rulie", noting the question is asked by a "non-rulie" would immediately ask whether or not the ball was overhanging the lip since I'd expect a rulie to realize there were multiple scenarios possible.

 

As @davep043 noted, the verbiage "right on the lip" indicates, to ME at least, the OP meant overhanging the hole.

 

That aside, as mentioned earlier I would've thought it was an easy question to answer both ways.

 

A fundamentally sound written "good question" doesn't require later amendment nor require follow up questions to establish the facts. They are difficult to compose. It's a good deal easier out in the wild armed with a Rule book and a radio.  😉

[davep043]

10 hours ago, Augster said:

Seems pretty clear to me. “Any Time”. 

In almost every situation with the Rules. a specific overrides a general.  In general, you can concede the next stroke at any time.  But specifically for a ball overhanging the hole, the player is allowed enough time to reach the hole, plus 10 seconds before the ball is treated as being at rest.  That specific treatment overrides the more general right to concede the next stroke.

As the player, I'm going to report my correct score, not including the last "conceded stroke".  You may ask for a ruling, but you'll lose it.

Edited December 25, 2022 by davep043

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, nsxguy said:

As @davep043 noted, the verbiage "right on the lip" indicates, to ME at least, the OP meant overhanging the hole.

 

 

To me as well. "Right by the lip" would not be overhanging, "right on the lip" is what it says, ON the lip. Cannot be ON the lip without being overhanging.