Grumpy CC members complaining about Juniors.....

[caniac6]

This is actually a very simple issue. Unless the club/course has rules restricting juniors on weekends, the kids have equal rights on the course. If the kids are skilled enough to play from the tips, they play from the tips. If they are holding up play, they get treated the same as slow playing adults. People should show respect to others regardless of their age.

[daegyu]

17 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

This is actually a very simple issue. Unless the club/course has rules restricting juniors on weekends, the kids have equal rights on the course. If the kids are skilled enough to play from the tips, they play from the tips. If they are holding up play, they get treated the same as slow playing adults. People should show respect to others regardless of their age.

 

I think most people here agreed with the OP in that their kid was unjustly called out. The last few pages have gone off the rails as many helicopter parents are expanding the issue to emphatically assert that their kids should have the same rights/privileges as the full, paying/equity holding member. I agree with you, if there are no rules/restrictions on juniors then let them have at it. The problem is there are a few posters here who think that 1) their kids should be above the rules (which is fine if they have exhibited their talent and worked out an agreement with the head pro) 2) the rules shouldn't exist in the first place. As someone else has stated, the rules are in place for the 99% of junior golfers who aren't very good. Yes, we know your 14 year old is a scratch and can hit it a country mile. But by and large, your kid is an outlier. All the kids at your club are scratch? Then your club is an outlier. The average 12-16 year old has a handicap of 24. Most importantly, if the box excludes juniors before 9 am on weekends, it is what it is. You knew the rules when you signed up. And if every club you've ever joined changed the rules on you, then you're not getting the message. 

[leezer99]

This email just came out from our club. I think it gives a pretty clear picture of the type of members we have. It’s frankly pretty disgusting the stuff we have to put up with. It’s not everyone but the loud obnoxious ones spoil the atmosphere. I had hoped I could leave my son at the course on his own but the harassment is awful with a certain group of guys. 
 

Edit to add: this email did not come from anything we reported. 
 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by leezer99

[kekoa]

19 hours ago, leezer99 said:

This email just came out from our club. I think it gives a pretty clear picture of the type of members we have. It’s frankly pretty disgusting the stuff we have to put up with. It’s not everyone but the loud obnoxious ones spoil the atmosphere. I had hoped I could leave my son at the course on his own but the harassment is awful with a certain group of guys. 
 

Edit to add: this email did not come from anything we reported. 
 

 

Wow, for them to send out a notice like that there must be a lot of harassment and complaints going on, which is really unfortunate.  Sorry you guys have to deal with it.  I'd normally say find another club, but I know it's tough in Socal. 

[heavy_hitter]

Personally feel Private clubs should block out time according to how good they are, not by how much they pay.

[kcap]

Hearing all these stories, I am just so happy to be at our club.
 

We have ton of rules on when my son can play, but away from that, the facilities and the encouragement he gets from the pro/member is great.

 

 

[tssgj65]

Acceptance and encouragement from membership and pro shop should be the norm at all clubs, not the exception.  Juniors are potential future members and necessary for club health in the long run.

 

Often the best run clubs are run by one individual (although tend to be higher priced and well appointed/good course) - with the main rule being don't be an A Hole.  If you are you'll get your money back and are told to not come back.

[heavy_hitter]

5 minutes ago, tssgj65 said:

Acceptance and encouragement from membership and pro shop should be the norm at all clubs, not the exception.  Juniors are potential future members and necessary for club health in the long run.

 

Often the best run clubs are run by one individual (although tend to be higher priced and well appointed/good course) - with the main rule being don't be an A Hole.  If you are you'll get your money back and are told to not come back.

[Bizzle80]

There is a club here in LA, known as a bit of a boys club/party vibe, that had a celebrity join. During membership process guy was told to stop wearing hat backwards...but as soon as he got his membership he started immediately acting like an a-hole and proceeded to spend his first day at the course rocking backwards baseball hat and was a jerk to the Asst Pro who requested he reverse it.

 

By the time he finished his first round as a member, he walked back to the clubhouse where they proceeded to give him a check and rescinded his membership. 

 

Club likes to party, but main rule: Don't be an a-hole.

[MikekiM]

Wouldn't surprise me if it's a result from the lawsuit pending right now down at Old Ranch in Seal Beach. Cart girl is suing the club and individual members for like $15M, sexual harassment, workplace violations, the whole nine yards.  She's probably going to win too.

 

https://nypost.com/2023/01/31/calif-woman-sues-golf-club-for-alleged-sexual-misconduct/

 

[Greenie]

13 minutes ago, MikekiM said:

Wouldn't surprise me if it's a result from the lawsuit pending right now down at Old Ranch in Seal Beach. Cart girl is suing the club and individual members for like $15M, sexual harassment, workplace violations, the whole nine yards.  She's probably going to win too.

 

https://nypost.com/2023/01/31/calif-woman-sues-golf-club-for-alleged-sexual-misconduct/

 

 

 

 I don't understand why guys playing golf go crazy and act like that to the cart girls. I used to play in a large group and certain guys I was paired with would act that way. I felt embarrassed to be a part of it. I would always apologize to the girl and get on the guys to shut up. I heard some of the guys say oh they expect it. Since when does a 25 yr. want to be hit on by an old man. 

[kekoa]

21 minutes ago, MikekiM said:

Wouldn't surprise me if it's a result from the lawsuit pending right now down at Old Ranch in Seal Beach. Cart girl is suing the club and individual members for like $15M, sexual harassment, workplace violations, the whole nine yards.  She's probably going to win too.

 

https://nypost.com/2023/01/31/calif-woman-sues-golf-club-for-alleged-sexual-misconduct/

 

LMAO.  I was just waiting for this to come up, but didn't want to derail my own thred. 🙂   $15 Mil?  Cmon.  

[Bizzle80]

1 hour ago, kekoa said:

LMAO.  I was just waiting for this to come up, but didn't want to derail my own thred. 🙂   $15 Mil?  Cmon.  

 

I am down with that lawsuit. Until the penalty for clubs/companies/etc is high enough to prevent them from allowing that type of behavior actually deters it, keep ramping those costs up.

 

My club immediately booted a guy who was getting verbally and physically handsy with a visiting female pro after too many drinks. no questions asked...there is the door. GTFO.

 

If your daughter was assisting at the club for the summer, would any of us be cool with members acting the way they allegedly were at Old Ranch? Not a chance.

 

From the complaint: 

"One golfer allegedly texted her constantly, groped her, kissed her without her consent and sent her articles and ads for sex toys, the suit said.

Another member allegedly told Stover he would pay her $300 to see her breasts, lifted her shirt in front of others members and poured alcohol on her.

One text allegedly sent to her — and obtained by the news outlet — said: “When you spread those legs it kills me. Princess, I need to see you in action. Help me. You’ll get a big tip."

 

Someone does that s*** to my daughter i'm coming for them with a 9 iron.

[SoCalCarl]

22 minutes ago, Bizzle80 said:

 

I am down with that lawsuit. Until the penalty for clubs/companies/etc is high enough to prevent them from allowing that type of behavior actually deters it, keep ramping those costs up.

 

My club immediately booted a guy who was getting verbally and physically handsy with a visiting female pro after too many drinks. no questions asked...there is the door. GTFO.

 

If your daughter was assisting at the club for the summer, would any of us be cool with members acting the way they allegedly were at Old Ranch? Not a chance.

 

From the complaint: 

"One golfer allegedly texted her constantly, groped her, kissed her without her consent and sent her articles and ads for sex toys, the suit said.

Another member allegedly told Stover he would pay her $300 to see her breasts, lifted her shirt in front of others members and poured alcohol on her.

One text allegedly sent to her — and obtained by the news outlet — said: “When you spread those legs it kills me. Princess, I need to see you in action. Help me. You’ll get a big tip."

 

Someone does that s*** to my daughter i'm coming for them with a 9 iron.

100% F that s--t. Sounds terrible. Hope the court makes those people pay.

[ChipDriver]

4 hours ago, MikekiM said:

Wouldn't surprise me if it's a result from the lawsuit pending right now down at Old Ranch in Seal Beach. Cart girl is suing the club and individual members for like $15M, sexual harassment, workplace violations, the whole nine yards.  She's probably going to win too.

 

https://nypost.com/2023/01/31/calif-woman-sues-golf-club-for-alleged-sexual-misconduct/

 

IMO nobody wants this to go to court - not even the girl.  If it goes to court she will wish it hadn't.   They will settle out of court.  And nobody will know anything.

To be blunt - courts make decisions - but decisions don't always amount to justice.

 

[Bizzle80]

23 minutes ago, ChipDriver said:

IMO nobody wants this to go to court - not even the girl.  If it goes to court she will wish it hadn't.   They will settle out of court.  And nobody will know anything.

To be blunt - courts make decisions - but decisions don't always amount to justice.

 

 

100% But if the allegations and texts sent are true...and there is confirmation the club management did nothing/encouraged that behavior, they are F'd. They have insurance for this and it will most likely be settled, but hopefully set the precedent that that kind of behavior will no longer be tolerated. GM should be fired and members who were involved should be booted.

[leezer99]

2 minutes ago, Bizzle80 said:

 

100% But if the allegations and texts sent are true...and there is confirmation the club management did nothing/encouraged that behavior, they are F'd. They have insurance for this and it will most likely be settled, but hopefully set the precedent that that kind of behavior will no longer be tolerated. GM should be fired and members who were involved should be booted.

Booted and black listed. 

[ChipDriver]

1 hour ago, Bizzle80 said:

 

100% But if the allegations and texts sent are true...and there is confirmation the club management did nothing/encouraged that behavior, they are F'd. They have insurance for this and it will most likely be settled, but hopefully set the precedent that that kind of behavior will no longer be tolerated. GM should be fired and members who were involved should be booted.

It doesn't matter if it's true - the allegations have been made the club's reputation damaged.  That's the society we live in now - allegations are better than proof.   If she's stupid she'll go to court and it won't be worth it.   The men will get their pound of flesh...and more - even if the men were wrong.   Allegations work both ways.

[tiger1873]

10 hours ago, Bizzle80 said:

 

100% But if the allegations and texts sent are true...and there is confirmation the club management did nothing/encouraged that behavior, they are F'd. They have insurance for this and it will most likely be settled, but hopefully set the precedent that that kind of behavior will no longer be tolerated. GM should be fired and members who were involved should be booted.

 

I would say if true it's likely that criminal charges should have been filed against the members who acted this way.  Honestly I am not sure why it wasn't but maybe there is more to the story since she gave them her phone number to begin with.

 

I think everyone is in agreement this is no way to behave on a golf course.

[Petethreeput]

4 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

 

I would say if true it's likely that criminal charges should have been filed against the members who acted this way.  Honestly I am not sure why it wasn't but maybe there is more to the story since she gave them her phone number to begin with.

 

I think everyone is in agreement this is no way to behave on a golf course.

I think this was answered above.  Criminal cases don't come with damage payouts, and I suspect the attorney is looking at who/what likely has more insurance coverage.  The individuals may/may not have liability coverage, and if the individual is indicted for illegal reasons generally insurance can back out of the payment since largely illegal activities are excluded in coverages.

 

The Employer Practices Liability Insurance (EPLI, a coverage all businesses with employees should carry) will pay out for actions even if they are deemed illegal because the slope of illegality is pretty danged slippery.  It is the coverage to protect the employee from discrimination, harrassment, unlawful discharge, etc. in the event an employer acts negligently.  Most of these policies do not cover for "customer" abuse which is a very expensive endorsement to the coverage for the business, which is why they are focusing on the employer and not the client.  EDIT: remember, the message isn't the crime per se, it is how the message is received, which is what makes this such a slippery slope.

 

That is my thought.  And I have had cart girls give me their number (I do not take them BTW simply because I don't want this issue) because I am a good tipper.  They will try to give me their number so if I/we need a beverage they will come over to us and give us drinks.  There are a number of reasons why these guys would have her number if they are members who weren't so out of line when they got it, but it certainly happens for non-nefarious reasons.  Same thing for FB or Instagram, etc., because I am a good tipper they always ask to be "friends" and I have to tell them, "No thank you, I am old, you are not, but once you move on let me know." 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Petethreeput

[leezer99]

26 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

“…I am old, you are not, but once you move on let me know." 

Baller. 

[Petethreeput]

18 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

Baller. 

Not what I meant, but over the years I get to know the employees and offer to write references, etc.  I couldn't figure out a way to write that and not come off as pervy so I was hoping it was going to be missed... not so fast says Leezer99! 

 

I am an old man, everyone in my group knows the joke, "When I was 27 I never wanted to embarrass myself in front of the cart girl, now I don't want to embarrass myself in front of a fresh beer."

[Bizzle80]

The article states that she club encouraged her to give members her number so they could reach out if they needed beverage service. I don't think her intent was to give her number out so she could be sexually harassed.

 

There are two issues here: 1) Members being pervs and acting inappropriately. 2) This behavior being reported to the Club/her employers and then not only nothing being done about the behavior, but it actively being supported/accepted by the club.

 

Number 2 is the issue at hand. Thats the liability issue that is being taken to court...and thats why clubs need to let members know that harassment won't be tolerated.

 

 

[tiger1873]

31 minutes ago, Bizzle80 said:

The article states that she club encouraged her to give members her number so they could reach out if they needed beverage service. I don't think her intent was to give her number out so she could be sexually harassed.

 

There are two issues here: 1) Members being pervs and acting inappropriately. 2) This behavior being reported to the Club/her employers and then not only nothing being done about the behavior, but it actively being supported/accepted by the club.

 

Number 2 is the issue at hand. Thats the liability issue that is being taken to court...and thats why clubs need to let members know that harassment won't be tolerated.

 

 

 

Well if that was the case the club is going to pay up they will have a tough time defending it.  Why wouldn't they just give a cell phone for that specific purpose.  It wasn't the first time someone texted a cart girl something that is inappropriate for a company that owns 200 plus clubs.  On the surface this looks bad and I am glad I don't have to figure it out. 

 

I know one thing though if someone touched my wife or girls like was said in the article I be calling the local DA and telling them they need to press charges.  Everyone knows that you can't do that.

[Greenie]

17 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

 

Well if that was the case the club is going to pay up they will have a tough time defending it.  Why wouldn't they just give a cell phone for that specific purpose.  It wasn't the first time someone texted a cart girl something that is inappropriate for a company that owns 200 plus clubs.  On the surface this looks bad and I am glad I don't have to figure it out. 

 

I know one thing though if someone touched my wife or girls like was said in the article I be calling the local DA and telling them they need to press charges.  Everyone knows that you can't do that.

 

I agree with you.

 

One of the courses I play has a number posted for the beverage cart. It's not the personal phone number of the operator but goes to a phone that stays with the cart. If I was the person in this case I would have said I'm not comfortable with a bunch of strangers having my number.

 

With me being in a certain position at work I am required to give out my phone number to all my co-workers. I told the company no way this is going to happen on my personal phone. So the company bought me a phone and pays for the service. I am not on 24 hr call so the phone gets turned off when I walk out the door. I'm glad I have it that way because my phone would be blowing up 24 hrs. otherwise. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Greenie

[mizuno player]

My first club I only had two issues with kids of members. Both were just etiquette issues. 

 

The big one was our driving range was limited in distance. We did have a higher fence that made the carry over a good poke. We even had restricted flight balls to help. But if were a big hitter you could hit it over and most balls were not retrievable. 

 

Anyway these three teenagers were doing nothing except swinging as hard as they could to keep hitting balls over the fence. It went on for awhile I said. Guys please. I know it's fun but those balls are lost. Then we run short and won't have enough to practice with. You hit a few over cool. Now move to a club that doesn't go over. Thanks. Yes, they got all pissed and said some BS. I didn't care as I was polite. 

 

Some of the members really treated the kids like crap. Some of their parents didn't want to have the rules enforced for their kids. This club didn't allow juniors to play before noon on weekends or holidays. That was a rule since the inception of the club. They knew going in and still would bring the kids at 8 am on a Sunday. Then cause a scene. 

 

Now. There are definitely ways to speak with people. Unfortunately most think it's ok to be rude or talk down to kids. That is a problem. Better would be to have the club employees handle it if possible. 

[Goldenhawk]

At the driving range, my boys either irk older players or get befriend by them.  Never quite understood why a 14 year old striping 250 yard drives angers some of them.  On the course, most people leave them alone or are very complementary to them.  The boys typically play nine holes due to time and can shoot from par to the low 40s.  Length off the tee and pace of play is never an issue with them.  The pace of play of people ahead of them, that can be different story.

[MB19]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:08 PM, Greenie said:

 

 

 I don't understand why guys playing golf go crazy and act like that to the cart girls. I used to play in a large group and certain guys I was paired with would act that way. I felt embarrassed to be a part of it. I would always apologize to the girl and get on the guys to shut up. I heard some of the guys say oh they expect it. Since when does a 25 yr. want to be hit on by an old man. 

While this type of behavior is disgusting, it is certainly no different than what a typical bartender goes through on any given shift--male or female.  From Florida, to New England, to Las Vegas--I've just about seen it all.  

 

I was closing down the bar I was working in years back with a co-worker, and one of our duties was wiping the pour spouts and bottles of any excess liquor or general schmutz.  Some bartenders are particularly adroit at this practice, and my cohort was no exception.  As he was breezing through his duties, two off-duty banquet server barflies in the 50+ age category were apparently turned on by this--the elder of the two started to really get off on it, complete with cat-calling, moaning and self-groping.  I stared in amazement (was something even for Vegas) at the spectacle unfolding before me, as my partner kept going about his wiping with an obvious sense of accomplishment.

 

I mean, why wouldn't he be proud?  He just completed his closing duty and landed us a huge tip to go spend at one of Vegas' better third-shift bars.

 

Pouring drinks is an aphrodisiac and superpower rolled into one for alcoholics.

[Shilgy]

On 2/7/2023 at 6:08 AM, tiger1873 said:

 

I would say if true it's likely that criminal charges should have been filed against the members who acted this way.  Honestly I am not sure why it wasn't but maybe there is more to the story since she gave them her phone number to begin with.

 

I think everyone is in agreement this is no way to behave on a golf course.

Certainly no way to behave is right……does make me wonder though….I really doubt the crass members acted this way from day one of her employment there.   So my questions would be why did she put up with the increasingly poor treatment and how exactly did it start?

[deadsolid...shank]

We were always happy to play with the juniors, most of them anyway. We weren’t near the level of the Florida club mentioned with all the +kids, but we did have a handful go on to play smaller D1. But I don’t think they were ever involved in money games.  Maybe it made a difference in that we were a smaller club in a smaller market. Not only did we likely know the juniors pretty well, we also likely knew the parents. I don’t know if most are that way or not.  
 

But as I think Pete will attest, our proshop always had a pretty good handle on the ability and pace of players when they were sending people out. In my opinion, that’s the biggest thing a pro at private has to do, manage a lot of egos and wants and wishes of people who used to having things done their way. They would have never sent out a group of juniors on a Saturday morning if the shop didn’t know they could keep pace.