41 degree pitching wedge.. "Longest irons ever". Grandma just smoked a 9 iron 200 yards. (***MERGED***)

[Cliffy2020]

It used to be frowned upon to stand there and peek over at the loft of another man’s P-wedge.  Oh how times have changed.

 

EYES FORWARD!

[WristySwing]

10 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

Ping has lost me with the G430's.  I've owned almost every G set from G10 to present, but I won't buy these because of the stupid lofts.  

 

Interestingly, Taylormade Stealth HD irons have rolled back the crazy lofts.  PW = 44.5 degrees, which isn't exactly weak, but at least we don't need two gap wedges.  

 

Retrospec my brother.  Modern traditional lofts, less offset, what's not to love?

[596]

Actually "loft" has never actually changed.   Lofts have always been from an ie. 9* driver to a 60* lob wedge.  The only thing that changes is the label on the club head.   

 

Makes no difference if your set is 4 (22*) to SW (56*) or 6(22*) to SW (56*) you'll still have exactly the same number of clubs in your bag.  Still have basically the same loft gaps (4*).  Unless of course you get into the new 6* gaps like some have.  To those that complain about having to add 2 wedges, it's still the same number of clubs from 22* to 56*.  Matters not whether you add 2 wedges or 2 long irons, still the same number of sticks in the bag covering 22* to 56*.   If your 4 iron is 28* , now you have to add the 2 longer irons to cover 22* and 25*.  

 

So who really cares?  Any intelligent human knows that a 25* 5 iron will go further than a 31* 5 iron.  And it makes zero difference in the game of golf. 

[WristySwing]

3 hours ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

Well the bad thing about it is the big loft gaps in the bottom end of the bag. It’s snake oil for folks that aren’t good at golf or are short. 5-6 degree gapping in the bottom and the normal 3 in the long. Not to mention despite all the help I don’t know how functional the 20 degree 5 iron would play for most. The reason you see the stealth HD and mizuno HL irons with weaker lofts is because loft is your friend and these sets give you less clubs in that part of your bag. People can reference tech all they want but I’ve seen average joe hitting this kind of club in the sim and no low cg tech is magically getting these things to stop with descent angle -they’re still hitting them 50 feet off the ground they just have a higher chance of selling them the club because the 7 iron is suddenly going 170 total after it rolls 40 yards on there. Golf is largely an ego sport and if the 26 degree club stamped 7 goes further than 32 or 34 degree club stamped 7 lots of people will buy the former. I’d also wager a guess that those buying these kinds of clubs are not going to specific custom fit studios most of the time but rather getting “fit” or buying off the shelf in big box.

 

What gaps though?  This gets argued constantly but has never made sense to me.  Let's take a very traditional set, the 620 MB, vs. the G430 irons.  Titleist is as follows (3i down, descending order): 21*, 24*, 27*, 31*, 35*, 39*, 43*, 47*.   The G430 4i to AW: 19*, 22*, 25.5*, 29*, 33*, 37*, 41*, 45.5*.  

 

Do I not generally have the same lofts covered (within 2*) and can bend to suit if needed?  A traditional "player's" bag like a Tour Pro would be Driver, 3W, 5W, 3-PW, GW, SW, Putter.  Where am I missing this in the G430 if I go Driver, 3W, 5W, 5i-AW, GW, SW, Putter?  If anything, this is more beneficial, because now I can add in a hybrid around the 20* mark so I can move the lofts on my fairway woods down some to stretch out the carry yardage on these so there is not such a large delta between driver and 3w carry yardages.  Vokey has said for many years that in wedges a 6* loft gap is perfectly acceptable, so why everyone tries to cram 4* spacing between each club is still a mystery to me.  The only reason people do it is because it is a hangover from the early days where lofts were pretty much always 4* spacings all the way down.  A club should go to a yardage, not a loft.  If I have a gap at 105 yards, I don't care if that club is 48*, 50*, or 52*, as long as that gap gets filled.  

 

And to your second point (in red), that is what a fitting is for.  Like it or not, fitting is absolutely paramount these days.  If a person came into my shop and had a 50ft apex with a 35* descent angle on a 27* golf club, guess what, they are getting some toasters on a stick.  That's either full hybrid, a high lofted fairway, or the fattest iron known to man.  There's just no other way around it.  Sure, your average joe who walks into PGASS on a Thursday night at 8:30pm looking for a set of sticks on clearance doesn't give two flips about this --- they are going to shoot 95+ with 38 putts no matter what clubs they play.  They aren't the target market for a fitting because they will balk at the cost.  People who want to do it properly are not going to have this issue and would be steered away.  But Joe Clearance really doesn't care, so why do you care for him?  As others have pointed out, people really need to stop clutching their pearls about what other people play.  WHO CARES?  Do you keep up the pace of play, don't make inflammatory comments, and have good golf etiquette?  Fantastic, play every other club left handed with 10 hybrids and 4 putters...I don't care.  Play your game and I'll play mine.

Edited January 11, 2023 by WristySwing

[golfday]

11 hours ago, iknowbagu said:

T400 is 38° ...

 

I don't care, I'm over it, we're not going backwards at this point. If my next set of irons is 6-G³ then it is what it is. 

 

This is a funny thought. If a stock PW is 41* are they selling the stock GW at 45* / SW at 50* / LW at 56*? 

 

Seems like if they aren't now then they will eventually, and we really may end up carrying a set that 5i - SW, and then still have a 56* and 60* in our bags. 

 

I don't really view it as a problem, but it is something that I have to pay attention to when buying clubs. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by golfday

[Sparty4202]

8 hours ago, Feelingofgreatness said:

I can't figure out why this bothers people? 

 

If my 41* irons goes 140 and it's labeled P, how does that change much if you were to label it 9 or 8? 

 

Sure, you can put lofts instead of numbers... What changes? Nothing. 

I never ask other players what they hit, I couldn't care less. 

 

I think maybe guys playing older sets just hate when someone says they hit a pitching wedge on a par 3 if they were hitting an 8!

 

Super moot point for me, either method of labeling doesn't alter score. 

The clubs loft is only part of the equation, with all the new hollow body, fast face irons you also loss a lot of spin….which means you can loose control of your distance. It’s not unusual to have a large yardage dispersion with these irons. 
Personally I’ve gotten to the age where my swing speed puts me in this group that would benefit from these types of irons but I’ve tried several different models and have lost too much accuracy. I’ve moved back to a more traditional iron with less loft and my upon game has improved tremendously. So what if I hit an 8 iron why my partners are hitting 9 iron or Wedge. 

[jholz]

My objection to all of this is the price. With loft creep, the "iron set" (as we know it) has shrunk. The price of a 4 club set is essentially what an 8 club set used to cost.

 

Now, we need to fill in the gaps with clubs that are sold as singles. Have you priced wedges and hybrids/FWs lately? Nearing $200 per club.

 

At the end of the day, I can't help but feel the whole loft creep thing is just making golf more expensive and inaccessible. But, that's what snake oil does to markets - seriously, look it up.  

[dfeldss]

Who cares. If you're not playing them what difference does it make?

 

For the most part, WRXers are not the target market for these anyways

[Lasorcier]

I think it's a cheap tactic to make people think they hit it farther than they do, but I will say it is rare that somebody who is not a regular partner asks me what I hit on a hole. 

 

Even with regulars,  all except one don't ask either and the one who does is only because we hit similar distances. 

[iknowbagu]

19 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

Now, we need to fill in the gaps with clubs that are sold as singles. Have you priced wedges and hybrids/FWs lately? Nearing $200 per club.

 

 

Nearing? We passed that a long time ago. There are hybrids over $250 and fairways over $300. Wedges will be $200 by next cycle. 

 

[Fuscinator]

"Not even God can hit a one wedge."

[Nessism]

1 hour ago, WristySwing said:

 

Retrospec my brother.  Modern traditional lofts, less offset, what's not to love?

 

Retrospec loft PW is 41.5 degrees. 😝

[Binson]

There's a video on the Cool Clubs channel with Marty Jertson where he says the technology in these irons actually result in a loft increase of 2 degrees upon impact to increase launch.

 

It's almost as if static loft is just one variable in the equation and comparison across sets simply using one variable is an outdated premise...

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

1 hour ago, Cliffy2020 said:

It used to be frowned upon to stand there and peek over at the loft of another man’s P-wedge.  Oh how times have changed.

 

EYES FORWARD!

Niiiicceeee.....wedge.

[ChipNRun]

15 hours ago, ALIF said:

Lofts only on clubs!!!!

 

When Ben Hogan Co. returned to life in 2015, it actually went this route on its early iron offerings, the Fort Worth 15 blades and the follow-on game-improvement PTx irons. Sole of club had degrees, not club numbers.

 

Quote

"Not only was that set presented in 28 single-degree loft increments from 20-47 degrees, it also eschewed using traditional iron numbers on the sole for engraving the actual loft of each iron in the set."

Ben Hogan irons new take

I got some quality time with the Hogan team during lunch break at the 2016 PGA Merchandise Team. One thing we discussed: The following PTx set...

• 22°
• 27° 
• 32°
• 36°
• 40°
• 44°
• Wedges: 48-52-56-60 (or maybe 49-54-59)

With this mix, 5-degree gaps at the long end to squeeze out an iron, and still have tighter gapping up toward the scoring irons.

 

But, $$ were low that year, so I didn't buy it.

 

(Note: Picture left shows PTx irons)

 

 

 

In ensuing years, Hogan Edge model came up with four mixes in its Precision Launch system for its sets (4i-PW); all sets used 4-degree loft increments:

* Low Launch: 20° - 44°

* Mid Launch: 21° - 45°

* Mid-High Launch: 22° - 46°

* High Launch: 23° -  27 47°

 

Some 80% of orders requested the Mid-High launch mix, so Hogan eliminated the mid-launch and high-launch offering; low-launch was retained for customers playing in high-wind locations.

 

Ping picked up on these loft packages several cycles ago. Many of its model (e.g., i210 and G425) now offer Power, Standard, and Retro loft mixes. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by ChipNRun

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, jholz said:

My objection to all of this is the price. With loft creep, the "iron set" (as we know it) has shrunk. The price of a 4 club set is essentially what an 8 club set used to cost.

 

Now, we need to fill in the gaps with clubs that are sold as singles. Have you priced wedges and hybrids/FWs lately? Nearing $200 per club.

 

At the end of the day, I can't help but feel the whole loft creep thing is just making golf more expensive and inaccessible. But, that's what snake oil does to markets - seriously, look it up.  

Meh, many(most?) brands are approaching that $200 per club pricing anyways.  Do some feel better about purchasing that 6 club set at $1200 than buying piecemeal at $200 each?

 

It’s been said before by others but all of this complaining is just an ego driven butthurt issue.  
Golf is a precision game where score matters. Yes, length helps but real length not club numbering game length.

 

So play whatever helps you score best….in the end that’s all that matters.

[WristySwing]

1 hour ago, Nessism said:

 

Retrospec loft PW is 41.5 degrees. 😝

 

Holy, I didn't even realize that, my bad!

[Feelingofgreatness]

2 hours ago, Sparty4202 said:

The clubs loft is only part of the equation, with all the new hollow body, fast face irons you also loss a lot of spin….which means you can loose control of your distance. It’s not unusual to have a large yardage dispersion with these irons. 
Personally I’ve gotten to the age where my swing speed puts me in this group that would benefit from these types of irons but I’ve tried several different models and have lost too much accuracy. I’ve moved back to a more traditional iron with less loft and my upon game has improved tremendously. So what if I hit an 8 iron why my partners are hitting 9 iron or Wedge. 

This is categorically false. 

I have a few sets. One set has a 27* 5i and another has a 27* 7i. Both clubs travel 175 yards with around 5000 spin. The 7i is actually easier to hit because it's 37" versus the 5i that's 38". The peak height is greater in the 7i because of the lower CG and the land angle is also steeper on the 7i.

The bottom-line is, for me, the 7i is much easier to hit and stop near the pin than the old 5i is. How can you not love that?

 

What's the difference in the bottom end of my bag if I have 41* pw, 46* gw, 50* w, 54* sw and 58* LW? 

 

It's totally illogical thinking, I still have 14 clubs that cover my gaps from 275 yards all the was down to 80 yards on a full swing. 

[Sub_Roc]

I've embraced latest iron technology and it helped me to drop 20 strokes with a combination of practice and familiarity of the new found distances as a full swing only set of clubs.  That has also allowed me to focus on a 46/52/58 wedge setup with shotmaking specifc grinds which really turned my short game around as well.

 

For example: 195 yard, point and shoot to a flat green.  Smooth 6 iron, 2 hop and stop, pin high.  Before with old tech, I was scrambling trying to get on with a hard 5 or a 4 iron and hoping.

 

Super intrigued by the Ping G430 irons and its shot to shot consistency (no hot spot fliers).  Will look into those as they come down in price a little.  These aren't strong lofted for the sake of loft jacking.  They still produce the necessary peak height and descent angle, but allow a better smash factor through face technology to improve distance in a meaningful way. 

 

I still have old school lofted clubs, but only use them for the range or in the minimalist carry bag.  They are still fun to hit.

[Sparty4202]

23 minutes ago, Feelingofgreatness said:

This is categorically false. 

I have a few sets. One set has a 27* 5i and another has a 27* 7i. Both clubs travel 175 yards with around 5000 spin. The 7i is actually easier to hit because it's 37" versus the 5i that's 38". The peak height is greater in the 7i because of the lower CG and the land angle is also steeper on the 7i.

The bottom-line is, for me, the 7i is much easier to hit and stop near the pin than the old 5i is. How can you not love that?

 

What's the difference in the bottom end of my bag if I have 41* pw, 46* gw, 50* w, 54* sw and 58* LW? 

 

It's totally illogical thinking, I still have 14 clubs that cover my gaps from 275 yards all the was down to 80 yards on a full swing. 

Because it work for you that doesn’t mean it works for everyone…thru my fittings and course testing the the hollow body jacked up lofts do not give me the same result. Maybe that’s the reason the manufacturers make so many different models of irons.

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Meh, many(most?) brands are approaching that $200 per club pricing anyways.  Do some feel better about purchasing that 6 club set at $1200 than buying piecemeal at $200 each?

 

It’s been said before by others but all of this complaining is just an ego driven butthurt issue.  
Golf is a precision game where score matters. Yes, length helps but real length not club numbering game length.

 

So play whatever helps you score best….in the end that’s all that matters.

 

I wonder why drivers, woods, hybrids, and wedges all have loft stamped on them?  If it's not important with irons why is it important in other clubs?

[sheamclkel]

It unfortunate but as long as distance is the driving factor is selling clubs, this will be a thing. Personally, Ping is probably the last company we should pick on here because they are simply following trend. 

 

This is also irrelevant in my opinion. Every company has a model that is not loft jacked, or you can customer order lofts adjusted. It will help some and will hurt others just like any other spec in golf.

[CasualLie]

I guess most hacks stress over how to make the gaps work around the wedges because everything has to be a full swing.  If you know how to take something off a wedge and hit partial shots, then this is not really an issue.

 

And regardless of what number / loft is stamped on the club, the one constant that seems to never have a chance of changing is most golfers under club themselves.  I couldn't care less when someone smugly hits the 8i to the 170 yd pin, they are coming up short and making bogey, or worse.

 

 

[MtlJeff]

3 hours ago, 596 said:

Actually "loft" has never actually changed.   Lofts have always been from an ie. 9* driver to a 60* lob wedge.  The only thing that changes is the label on the club head.   

 

Makes no difference if your set is 4 (22*) to SW (56*) or 6(22*) to SW (56*) you'll still have exactly the same number of clubs in your bag.  Still have basically the same loft gaps (4*).  Unless of course you get into the new 6* gaps like some have.  To those that complain about having to add 2 wedges, it's still the same number of clubs from 22* to 56*.  Matters not whether you add 2 wedges or 2 long irons, still the same number of sticks in the bag covering 22* to 56*.   If your 4 iron is 28* , now you have to add the 2 longer irons to cover 22* and 25*.  

 

So who really cares?  Any intelligent human knows that a 25* 5 iron will go further than a 31* 5 iron.  And it makes zero difference in the game of golf. 

 

What i do notice a bit though is when the shafts stay the same length. Like i mostly agree with everything you're saying, but when the lofts get sooooo crazy but the shaft lengths stay traditional it's kinda weird.

 

The Titleist T400 for example has the same shaft lengths as the T100-S.

 

The 20 degree "5" iron of the T400 comes with a 38 inch shaft, which is actually shorter than the shaft of my 27 degree club....

 

The 26 degree "7" iron (note--LOL) is 37 inches. This is the same length as my 33 degree club and 1 1/4 inches shorter than my 26 degree club

 

Clubs that strong lofted with a much shorter than "standard" shaft are gonna be impossible to get airborne for some players, unless they are using the highest launching shaft in existence

 

You put a S300 in that 20 degree 5 iron and i doubt i could get it 10 feet in the air and i'm a scratch

[@_the_crook]

6 hours ago, 5nowflake said:

I reckon that an average player would be best served with a three or four club “iron set” covering about 30-45 degrees, hybrids in the 20s, wedges in the 50s. 

+1

some may need more than four irons but simpler is better.

 

switched to a smaller carry bag last fall,  I streamlined down to D, 2 hybrids, 5-PW, 52/56 and a putter.

not really missing the 3/5 woods and liking the walk much better.

 

[jorellanes]

I am loving my set of 223 HMPs..... Long, accurate and LOTS of GIR!!!

[ballzo]

I still haven't given in and a part of that is the jacked up lofts make just switching to a new irons set difficult without having to rearrange your whole entire bag. So I carry on with 3 sets of 15 year old irons.

[Klubster]

16 hours ago, kwcsports said:

T400 PW at 38 deg is insane haha. Wow

It is a renumbered T300 set.  Funny, starts with a 5 iron and ends P, W, W2, W3.  Soon, we will just be carrying 9 wedges.  W1, W2......etc.  Drop the W and we are right back to the classic club loft numbers.

[m d g]

16 hours ago, chollier986 said:

Isn’t the idea that the people these clubs are marketed towards need the distance help?  Meaning if they hit a traditional 7 iron ~130 yards, then a standard PW is <100 yards.  The 3 gap wedges wouldn’t be a need for this target market.

Maybe not 3 gap wedges but certainly 2.

 

I hit my 7i 130 and my PW 100. I have a 48 for 90 yards, a 52 for 80 yards (and what I use for most chipping), and a 58 for the high, soft shots and for green side sand.

[Bad9]

36 minutes ago, Klubster said:

It is a renumbered T300 set.  Funny, starts with a 5 iron and ends P, W, W2, W3.  Soon, we will just be carrying 9 wedges.  W1, W2......etc.  Drop the W and we are right back to the classic club loft numbers.

 

Titleist has had a number of sets the last number of years with multiple gap wedges. I always find it hilarious as they are the " serious clubs for serious players" company.