Interesting Wrong Ball Situation

[DaveLeeNC]

I was playing a casual (and postable) round of golf today. I hit an approach shot right at the pin but the sun was in my eyes so I could not follow the ball. And there was a good bit of wind so distance was hard to judge as well. I was about 140 yards out - felt like a good shot. 

 

I got to the green and I could not find my ball anywhere. I looked while my playing partners chipped/putted out and I never found the ball. For posting purposes I was puzzling over Local Rule E-5 and where to drop (did not know if my ball was long or short although short was more likely), or whether to (mentally) go back and replay the last shot (which I was not going to do on a crowded course in a casual round). As we were leaving the green I saw another ball about 25 yards over the green half hidden in a clump of grass (big downhill slope off the back of the green). When I picked it up it was a Pro V1 with red markings much like mine, but it was not my ball. It turns out that a playing partner had played my ball (he hit a chip shot from just short of the green to inches for a tap-in par). This happened before I had even started my search. My search had passed 3 minutes, BTW.  

 

Had this been a serious stroke play competition I guess I would have played 2 balls (one lost ball and one from where a playing partner played my ball) and let the committee figure it out. What would they have done here? A read through of Rules 9 and 18 lead me to believe that this is just a tough break lost ball, but...

 

dave

 

ps. I just posted net double bogey, BTW treating it as a lost ball. 

[rogolf]

If it was not KVC after 3 minutes of searching for your original ball, the original ball is lost and you must proceed under stroke and distance. A bad break but they do happen. 

[davep043]

Yeah, your ball was lost, he played a Wrong Ball, and he would be DQ in a stroke play competition if he didn't correct his mistake before playing off the next tee.  In match play, he'd lose the hole as soon as he played the Wrong Ball, so your lost ball would be irrelevant.  I'll check the relevant rules tomorrow and add more.

[antip]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

If it was not KVC after 3 minutes of searching for your original ball, the original ball is lost and you must proceed under stroke and distance. A bad break but they do happen. 

And, be assured Dave, your playing partner did not get a tap in par. They get wrong ball and must proceed with their original ball, either finding it within time or doing S&D. Failure to find or do S&D means DQ.

[DaveLeeNC]

Thanks for the quick and complete responses - pretty much what I thought would be the case (which is what  posted). I guess I have no idea what my playing partner actually put on his card as he was not in my cart and there was no competition between us. He was quite apologetic but neither of us were going back onto the green to properly finish out the hole since the group behind us was already playing into the green. 

 

dave

[szaino]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:31 PM, davep043 said:

Yeah, your ball was lost, he played a Wrong Ball, and he would be DQ in a stroke play competition if he didn't correct his mistake before playing off the next tee.  In match play, he'd lose the hole as soon as he played the Wrong Ball, so your lost ball would be irrelevant.  I'll check the relevant rules tomorrow and add more.

 I didn't look at the rules, but this doesn't seem fair.  

 

Another player picks up my ball, putts out with it, and sticks it in their pocket. Why would I get penalized for this?

[davep043]

28 minutes ago, szaino said:

I didn't look at the rules, but this doesn't seem fair.  

 

Another player picks up my ball, putts out with it, and sticks it in their pocket. Why would I get penalized for this?

In stroke play, if you don't find your ball within 3 minutes of searching and don't KNOW (read the definition of Known of Virtually Certain) that it was moved by someone else, your ball is lost.  I don't think anyone would say its fair, but I'm not sure there's a better way to write the rule.  There has to be a time limit for searching.  Its simply not feasible to allow the situation to be "corrected" if you don't learn of it until a few more holes have been played. Now if you see someone else pick up a ball in the area where yours is likely to be, you just might have KVC, and be able to play under Rule 9.6 without penalty.

[pingfool]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:27 PM, rogolf said:

If it was not KVC after 3 minutes of searching for your original ball, the original ball is lost and you must proceed under stroke and distance. A bad break but they do happen. 

 

Your ball is “lost” when a member of your foursome claims your ball and finishes the hole because no one discovered the mistake in 3mins?

 

Please  quote the rule # so i can read and understand how to avoid this - thanks 

[DaveLeeNC]

51 minutes ago, szaino said:

 I didn't look at the rules, but this doesn't seem fair.  

 

Another player picks up my ball, putts out with it, and sticks it in their pocket. Why would I get penalized for this?

 

Yep - add another feather to the cap owned by the "Life is Not Fair" guy.  dave

[DaveLeeNC]

2 minutes ago, pingfool said:

 

Your ball is “lost” when a member of your foursome claims your ball and finishes the hole because no one discovered the mistake in 3mins?

 

Please  quote the rule # so i can read and understand how to avoid this - thanks 

 

@davep043 addressed this pretty completely. I have played a lot of golf and never seen this before. I guess if you want to avoid this FOR SURE then (before your 3 minute search is up) you need to verify that none of your playing partners have played your ball (which in some cases is probably not practical and in all cases would probably make you a bit of an irritant within your group). 

 

dave

[pingfool]

Struggling with how the original story unfolded for you…based on how our group typically plays.

If someone in the group hits a ball  from 140 at the pin - no one is putting out until everyone in the group has found their ball.

[DaveLeeNC]

11 minutes ago, pingfool said:

Struggling with how the original story unfolded for you…based on how our group typically plays.

If someone in the group hits a ball  from 140 at the pin - no one is putting out until everyone in the group has found their ball.

 

For us in these circumstances (crowded course, no serious competition) it is normal for the player (like me) who can't find his ball (near the green) to just say "you guys putt out while I hunt for my ball". Actually going back to replay the shot was not going to happen and I had no interest in anything other than generating a legal/posted score. So I applied Local Rule E-5 (in my head) and then handicap rule whatever for an unfinished hole, posting a net double (not a stroke hole for me). I suppose I could have chipped in for a bogey (have no idea where I would have dropped) but guys behind us were already waiting so I just moved on. 

 

dave

[pingfool]

2 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

For us in these circumstances (crowded course, no serious competition) it is normal for the player (like me) who can't find his ball (near the green) to just say "you guys putt out while I hunt for my ball". Actually going back to replay the shot was not going to happen and I had no interest in anything other than generating a legal/posted score. So I applied Local Rule E-5 (in my head) and then handicap rule whatever for an unfinished hole, posting a net double (not a stroke hole for me). I suppose I could have chipped in for a bogey (have no idea where I would have dropped) but guys behind us were already waiting so I just moved on. 

 

dave

 

I guess if your only concern was having a legit score to post you take the esc dbg and not give it a second thought - or post on wrx.  We call that a Friday night score. 

[rogolf]

4 hours ago, pingfool said:

 

Your ball is “lost” when a member of your foursome claims your ball and finishes the hole because no one discovered the mistake in 3mins?

 

Please  quote the rule # so i can read and understand how to avoid this - thanks 

See Rule 6.3c(2), the definition of "Lost" and definition of "Known or Virtually Certain"

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, pingfool said:

 

I guess if your only concern was having a legit score to post you take the esc dbg and not give it a second thought - or post on wrx.  We call that a Friday night score. 

 

So you and your friends would go back to the spot of previous stroke to take the stroke & distance even if that would delay the group behind you? That is certainly the way to do it by the Rules but is it really worth it on a casual round?

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, pingfool said:

 

Your ball is “lost” when a member of your foursome claims your ball and finishes the hole because no one discovered the mistake in 3mins?

 

Please  quote the rule # so i can read and understand how to avoid this - thanks 

 

How to avoid it? Make sure you hit your ball always to a spot where you can see it all the time and keep your eyes on that ball until you reach the spot where it lies.

 

That should do it.

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

How to avoid it? Make sure you hit your ball always to a spot where you can see it all the time and keep your eyes on that ball until you reach the spot where it lies.

 

That should do it.

Aye right.  Easy game golf, isn't it?

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Colin L

[Colin L]

   Duplicate

Edited February 5, 2023 by Colin L

[antip]

6 hours ago, pingfool said:

 

Your ball is “lost” when a member of your foursome claims your ball and finishes the hole because no one discovered the mistake in 3mins?

 

Please  quote the rule # so i can read and understand how to avoid this - thanks 

It's lost when you can't find it within 3 minutes of search. The how to avoid answers are not in the rule book. While the specific disaster that befell Dave is rare, multiple angles played into this perfect storm. Risk reduction strategies include: wherever possible, keeping an eye on the balls of other players in the group; calling for someone to watch in that blind shot into the sun situation; being aware if anyone in the group is using a similar ball; marking your ball in a distinctive way - and more than one color helps; and to state the bleeding obvious - check your ball before playing it. Perhaps there are more?

[DaveLeeNC]

14 minutes ago, antip said:

Risk reduction strategies include: wherever possible, keeping an eye on the balls of other players in the group; calling for someone to watch in that blind shot into the sun situation; being aware if anyone in the group is using a similar ball; marking your ball in a distinctive way - and more than one color helps; and to state the bleeding obvious - check your ball before playing it. Perhaps there are more?

 

The best strategy (IMHO) is to mark your ball with an unusual color using a mark(s) that tend to be visible regardless of the orientation of the ball. 

 

dave

[pingfool]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So you and your friends would go back to the spot of previous stroke to take the stroke & distance even if that would delay the group behind you? That is certainly the way to do it by the Rules but is it really worth it on a casual round?

 

No.

Based on OPs example we would have IDENTIFIED all 4 balls before finishing out.

We’re not going to leave a guy hanging and finish a hole with somebody else ball. If we locate 3 and 1 is declared lost - at least the correct guy gets the 2stroke penalty or esc dbg.

None of my posts mentioned stroke & distance and delaying a casual round. 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

This reminds me (I am the OP on this thread, BTW) of the most unusual wrong ball that I ever encountered. This one was in a weekly MGA event so no short cuts. Players A and B were in the same area in light rough hitting their second shots to a par 4. Player A hit first (high handicapper) and he hit a low half skull that ran like crazy and ended up on the green about 15' out. So (in the end) - great shot. 

 

Player B then played (low handicapper) and hit a great approach. His ball hit Player A's ball and bounded off the green to the right. Just a bad break (or so we thought). 

 

So the cart path was on the right side of the green and the path for Player A from his cart to the green went right by Player B's ball. He glanced down as he walked past and came to a quick stop saying to Player B - "what kind of ball do you play". B said a ProV1 with the number underlined. 

 

So A then said "OH S#!T - we hit each other's ball". And we needed 3 scores on this hole (team scoring) so we all instantly knew that they were both taking penalties and heading back to replay their shots. But then B walked up, looked at the ball, and said - "I can't swear that I was super careful in identifying my ball, but I can say with 100% certainty that I did NOT play a Topflight on that shot". 

 

So we decided that B's ball did not bounce off A's ball. Instead it knocked A's ball off the green. So instead of them heading back for penalties and  shot replays, A (he got to replace his ball back to where it was) and B (who played the ball where it ended) both had birdie putts inside 15'. This was maybe 2005, as a guess, BTW. 

 

dave

[pingfool]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

How to avoid it? Make sure you hit your ball always to a spot where you can see it all the time and keep your eyes on that ball until you reach the spot where it lies.

 

That should do it.

 

Do you follow your own advice? I learned never to take advice from someone on the golf course unless they’ve demonstrated they execute it better than you can.

Lot of know it alls out there - ya know

[Mr. Bean]

31 minutes ago, pingfool said:

 

Do you follow your own advice? I learned never to take advice from someone on the golf course unless they’ve demonstrated they execute it better than you can.

Lot of know it alls out there - ya know

 

My "advice" was not a real advice as it is impossible to play golf and not to loose sight of one's ball occasionally. Equally impossible as to avoid situations where someone or something might take your ball and you cannot find it within 3 minutes. Ya know.

[Mr. Bean]

36 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

This reminds me (I am the OP on this thread, BTW) of the most unusual wrong ball that I ever encountered. This one was in a weekly MGA event so no short cuts. Players A and B were in the same area in light rough hitting their second shots to a par 4. Player A hit first (high handicapper) and he hit a low half skull that ran like crazy and ended up on the green about 15' out. So (in the end) - great shot. 

 

Player B then played (low handicapper) and hit a great approach. His ball hit Player A's ball and bounded off the green to the right. Just a bad break (or so we thought). 

 

So the cart path was on the right side of the green and the path for Player A from his cart to the green went right by Player B's ball. He glanced down as he walked past and came to a quick stop saying to Player B - "what kind of ball do you play". B said a ProV1 with the number underlined. 

 

So A then said "OH S#!T - we hit each other's ball". And we needed 3 scores on this hole (team scoring) so we all instantly knew that they were both taking penalties and heading back to replay their shots. But then B walked up, looked at the ball, and said - "I can't swear that I was super careful in identifying my ball, but I can say with 100% certainty that I did NOT play a Topflight on that shot". 

 

So we decided that B's ball did not bounce off A's ball. Instead it knocked A's ball off the green. So instead of them heading back for penalties and  shot replays, A (he got to replace his ball back to where it was) and B (who played the ball where it ended) both had birdie putts inside 15'. This was maybe 2005, as a guess, BTW. 

 

dave

 

Where's the wrong ball part in your story? An interesting story, though.

[Mr. Bean]

51 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

The best strategy (IMHO) is to mark your ball with an unusual color using a mark(s) that tend to be visible regardless of the orientation of the ball. 

 

dave

 

That's me.

 

And in competitions I play a yellow ball with those same markings.

[DaveLeeNC]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Where's the wrong ball part in your story? An interesting story, though.

 

We THOUGHT that we had two wrong balls. We were just wrong about the wrong balls. dave

Edited February 6, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[Mr. Bean]

33 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

We THOUGHT that we had two wrong balls. We were just wrong about the wrong balls. dave

 

Instead of a wrong ball it was a wrong wrong ball 😂

[bobfoster]

Golf is a weird, random game. Played outdoors on courses a couple miles long. At sunrise and sunset when you can barely see the ball. In deserts and swamps. When it is 45* and raining and windy, and 105* in scorching heat. On goat tracks and at manicured country clubs. And somehow the RoG try to take every contingency into account. Which almost by definition can never happen. 

 

Golf will always be "unfair", but randomly unfair. Sometimes the RoG will hurt you when you didn't deserve to be hurt, others times they will help you when you don't deserve to be helped. In the long run (speaking as someone that has played this silly game for 50+ years), it sort of evens out in the end. 

[szaino]

23 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Yep - add another feather to the cap owned by the "Life is Not Fair" guy.  dave

A- you don't know me, so your comment was not well received

B- Unfortunate that "the guy that counts feathers in his cap" feels threatened