New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[Duffer Mark]

13 hours ago, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

Stick drills? Anyone have a video for these?

 

 

Here is Dan using the stick drill with one of his students. The drill starts just after the two minute mark.

[CHNchilla]

19 hours ago, baudi said:

So first 'the industry' creates the Phantom of Shallows and seduces a newly born crowd of believers.

Then years after the lost and beguiled souls can only be freed by modern wizardry at $10.000 a day.

 

 "I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, bad?" -- Dr. Peter Venkman     

 

 

The data here is pretty undeniable though. We haven't really had the technology to isolate specific movements in the swing, so any "swing-guru" could claim 'x' or 'y' was causing 'a' or 'b' effect because we were limited to stills or slow-mo video that can essentially look totally different depending on the angle of capture. AMG's capturing technique doesn't have those limitations.

 

[NoCalHack]

I love these guys.  These guys are basically the myth busters of golf instruction.

 

They give data rather than try and teach their system or swing.

 

 

Great vid with so many misconceptions about shallowing out there.  Seems like such a fad now.  I see all these instructors posting vids where every student seems to have the exact same swing.  The exaggerated shallow and then bend/squat swing.  I keep thinking, how come I see this move so infrequently on tour? 

 

 

[GungHoGolf]

9 minutes ago, NoCalHack said:

The exaggerated shallow and then bend/squat swing.  I keep thinking, how come I see this move so infrequently on tour? 

 

Sung Kang was doing the GG swing last year on Tour. He won the AT&T Byron Nelson back in 2018 (prior to his swing change I think), but since then hasn't done much. In 2020 (still prior to swing change?) he placed #72 in the FedEx Cup. Nothing in 2021. In 2022 he carded a nice 61 at the Shriners Children's Open before finishing T27, but has missed his first three cuts of the current season and is now is 667th in the OWGR.

[Ex Blade User]

3 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

 

Sung Kang was doing the GG swing last year on Tour. He won the AT&T Byron Nelson back in 2018 (prior to his swing change I think), but since then hasn't done much. In 2020 (still prior to swing change?) he placed #72 in the FedEx Cup. Nothing in 2021. In 2022 he carded a nice 61 at the Shriners Children's Open before finishing T27, but has missed his first three cuts of the current season and is now is 667th in the OWGR.

That’s pretty infrequent 

[NoCalHack]

4 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

 

Sung Kang was doing the GG swing last year on Tour. He won the AT&T Byron Nelson back in 2018 (prior to his swing change I think), but since then hasn't done much. In 2020 (still prior to swing change?) he placed #72 in the FedEx Cup. Nothing in 2021. In 2022 he carded a nice 61 at the Shriners Children's Open before finishing T27, but has missed his first three cuts of the current season and is now is 667th in the OWGR.

 

 

 

I'm not saying Gankas is not a great teacher or anything like that.  Nor do I pretend to know enough about instruction to make statements about how tour pros should or shouldn't swing the club.  

 

I do tend to have a bias against teachers who teach a similar swing to different people.  And I like AMT because it give you data on how pros with different swings actually do something different from amateurs.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

20 hours ago, lookylookitzadam said:

For anyone looking for the "Blender" Drill that Mike mentions in video.  It is here: 

 

Should start at the correct time, but if not and you want to skip to the part, its about 5:15 or so into the video.

This seems to be the 'Arm Swing Illusion' that Jim Waldron refers to.

Edited January 17, 2023 by KNOWMOREDOUBLES

[DShepley]

32 minutes ago, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

This seems to be the 'Arm Swing Illusion' that Jim Waldron refers to.

I'm not deeply familiar with Waldron's work, but I thought the same based on my limited knowledge of it.  Just kind of shows that there really is nothing new in golf instruction.

[AlohaPineapple]

super eye opening video!  realized I'm definitely pulling my hands towards the ball and consequently fighting too much spin on my irons.  hopefully the proper trailing arm unfolding sequence will help this

Edited January 17, 2023 by AlohaPineapple

[Golf_Goof]

Great video. Agree that as far as shallowing cues go, this feels the most unforced. 

 

The link to the other thread earlier showing Sergio really demonstrates this concept - I'd never looked at his move in this way before.

[Jim Waldron]

42 minutes ago, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

This seems to be the 'Arm Swing Illusion' that Jim Waldron refers to.

 

Yes - this is classic arm swing illusion concept. Blending is a drill/concept I came up with almost 30 years ago. They explain it exactly right. Seeing the golf swing in 3D vs 2D is the essence of it. And seeing the swing as a blend of two primary systems - levers and pivot. You absolutely need both - no way to create a functional golf swing without levers and rotors (pivot) and you have to learn the skill of blending of coordinating the two systems. That takes some athletic talent and a lot of reps/practice to achieve. Also takes a strong mind-brain/body connection and a well trained feel sense - because you cannot "think" your way to blending your levers and pivot. You can only feel your way to that outcome.

[Jim Waldron]

Binary thinking - aka "all or nothing" thinking is rampant in golf instruction, and add in the 2D illusions, and you end up with a basically dysfunctional view of the golf swing.  Levers (upper arms leaving the chest and then returning on down swing, wrists cocking and hinging, right elbow folding to 75-90 degrees, and counter-clockwise forearm roll during Release) move in two different ways: dependent motion, meaning the Pivot creates forces that move the Levers in 3D space, and independent motion, the Levers move themselves at the level of the joints, mainly through the muscles surrounding the joints (along with a little assist from gravity in Transition and a big assist from Pivot momentum).

 

The upper arms move in the shoulder sockets independently, ie in the backswing, they move out away from and in front of the rotating chest and up and a tiny bit sideways to the right of torso mid-line: that motion basically repeats in transition. 

 

Right elbow folding also raises the arms in the up or vertical dimension, mainly the left arm. Then when the right elbow un-folds in transition, that lowers the arms in the sockets, mainly left arm.

 

Wrist angles do nothing when that lowering of the upper arms happens, ie they do not "hold on" (which would be classic steering impulse) and they do not "throw away" (classic hit impulse)...they simply do nothing to change the wrist angles. 

 

This is a special skill that must be learned through feel awareness - because most of my students will let the momentum from the right elbow un-folding leak into their wrists and cause the angles to open up. 

 

The function of how the right arm angle un-folds may well be the most mis-understood and most important parts of the golf swing.  It un-folds in 3D space; it un-folds or should un-fold in Transition ONLY due to pivot momentum affecting the elbow joint, not by using the right tricep to actively throw the angle open (another common form of hit impulse).  

 

The direction of the right arm angle opening up is another source of confusion....because our minds visualize direction in a static way, but in reality the pivot I moving the right arm/elbow through 3D space in a spiral shape, ie NOT toward a precise point in space. 

 

But from a 2D perspective, you can accurately say that in early Transition, around left arm parallel to ground, is when it starts to open up, and the general direction that is happening is toward "the east" (target being "west") a very counter-intuitive fact when you think about it. That "east" intent can be very effective for a certain class of golfers who get stuck and too narrow with arms and right elbow early in Transition, ie right arm angle may go from 75 degrees to 110 degrees in transition, which makes a consistently repeatable and effective Release quite difficult.

 

You have blend, folks!

 

Any discussion of swing theory that is not recognizing these two facts: levers and pivots are both required, and the REAL issue in the golf swing mastery journey is learning how to blend them.

 

We want a gentle and subtle and gradual opening up of the right arm angle until P6, when you should have around a 45 degree angle (so it un-folds from 75 degree angle at the top to 45 degrees at P6).

 

Then during Release, there are two options - a passive release of the angle from Pivot momentum, or an active release using the right triceps to throw the angle away fast to generate more clubhead speed than the passive option. The active release will show only a little right arm angle at impact, and the passive anywhere from around 20-45 degrees...two totally different ways to do it.

[jholz]

Really interesting thread. Thanks to all who have contributed. Always constructive for my game.

 

AMG does do some wonderful videos and I've gained a lot from them. Very eye opening and engaging stuff.

 

I may be a complete moron, but, when @MonteScheinblum and @Jim Waldron chime in to concur, I know enough to listen.

 

As an obsessive dude who's been digging this crap out of the dirt for many years, their insights into the game have helped me a ton. 

 

[IMeneses]

This has to be one of the best topics and insightful discussion I ever read here! Thanks for the OP @Doodlebug87 for setting this up, but also to @MonteScheinblum and @Jim Waldron for the additional explanation. 
 

The swing seems more simple and effective with this move, sort of rotate and lift in the backswing and rotate while unlfold in the backswing. I understand how and what the arms do  in the golf swing. 

[baudi]

3 hours ago, CHNchilla said:

 

 

The data here is pretty undeniable though. We haven't really had the technology to isolate specific movements in the swing, so any "swing-guru" could claim 'x' or 'y' was causing 'a' or 'b' effect because we were limited to stills or slow-mo video that can essentially look totally different depending on the angle of capture. AMG's capturing technique doesn't have those limitations.

 

The ''data'' here is nothing but a showed set of sequences as interpreted by amateurs of which AMG set up a narrative and explains on how to improve their ill motion. The information is not new nor do the used software (and hardware) illuminate new knowledge. But the production quality has high value no doubt.

 

My critique is more about the phenom of shallowing and the way novice players interpret and deal with this modern terminology. Search YT and will see tens of instructors who sort mimick  what Blake and Jerry somewhere show and try to get rid off for 10k a day. I think I know who coined the shallowing craze and the first time I heard about I wondered how much flatter do you want the club than p4. lol. In the old days reference of the club and arms were in relation to the shoulderline to the ground. Maybe I am wrong: refocus on 5 lessons; 4 magic moves; TGM; or older stuff and retrieve this shallowing move and how it is performed. Personally I think it is vague terminology and dependant on the type of transition and swing a player wishes to execute. This is what golf instruction is good at: reinvent itself; relabel and start explaining again. I am fuzzy about that.  

 

Best quote in the vid by Granato is about body dominant mindset: if you do not move the club properly you will not make good body movements because you hit it worse. Very true. This could have been said by Ernest Jones or Manuel dela Torre. Percy Boomer.  

 

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

2 hours ago, Jim Waldron said:

[...]

 

The function of how the right arm angle un-folds may well be the most mis-understood and most important parts of the golf swing.  It un-folds in 3D space; it un-folds or should un-fold in Transition ONLY due to pivot momentum affecting the elbow joint, not by using the right tricep to actively throw the angle open (another common form of hit impulse).  

 

The direction of the right arm angle opening up is another source of confusion....because our minds visualize direction in a static way, but in reality the pivot I moving the right arm/elbow through 3D space in a spiral shape, ie NOT toward a precise point in space. 

 

But from a 2D perspective, you can accurately say that in early Transition, around left arm parallel to ground, is when it starts to open up, and the general direction that is happening is toward "the east" (target being "west") a very counter-intuitive fact when you think about it. That "east" intent can be very effective for a certain class of golfers who get stuck and too narrow with arms and right elbow early in Transition, ie right arm angle may go from 75 degrees to 110 degrees in transition, which makes a consistently repeatable and effective Release quite difficult.

Very thoughtful and complete post - thank you for that!... I love your input, along with Monte's, Shauheen, Dan and AMG on the 'isolated' trail arm unfolding action + 'isolated' pivot -> blending of these that create the 3D look

 

On bold parts - I'm wondering if that's one of the difficulty players have; as it seems trail arm unfolding in transition is an : effect of pivot momentum... but that we can have an intent to unfold it towards 'east'

[Jim Waldron]

36 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Very thoughtful and complete post - thank you for that!... I love your input, along with Monte's, Shauheen, Dan and AMG on the 'isolated' trail arm unfolding action + 'isolated' pivot -> blending of these that create the 3D look

 

On bold parts - I'm wondering if that's one of the difficulty players have; as it seems trail arm unfolding in transition is an : effect of pivot momentum... but that we can have an intent to unfold it towards 'east'

 

One of the Big Picture themes in golf swing learning is how exactly do the Lever Angles open up in the forward swing. 

 

And not only the Physics aspect, but the Geometry aspect as well....meaning the Forces that achieve the opening up of the angles, but the "shape" of the Levers as they open up. It's a subtle skill that needs to be learned, meaning it is not a "check list" of "things to do" from a conscious mind thinking and effort standpoint.

 

Two options with the Forces: with Pivot momentum (passive release) or muscle-powered Levers (active release), or actually a third option, a blend of both. The Geometry part is a tough nut to crack since we are programmed by our brain's structure to visualize and think in 2D. That explains why and how so much of traditional instruction is confusing when it comes to swing plane and shape. 

 

Folks with hit impulse will typically throw the right arm angle away at the ball early in transition - ie the mis-perception that the ball is the target. The direction is always a moving target since your Pivot is moving your hands, arms and clubhead in a spiral shape - never to a fixed point in space. But in truth early in transition the "general" direction that the un-folding takes place is easterly, then northeast, then westerly, then after impact southwesterly. 

 

But as an exaggeration drill - the intent to un-fold "east" has a good track record for those golfers throwing the right arm angle at the ball.

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

3 hours ago, Jim Waldron said:

 

The function of how the right arm angle un-folds may well be the most mis-understood and most important parts of the golf swing.  It un-folds in 3D space; it un-folds or should un-fold in Transition ONLY due to pivot momentum affecting the elbow joint, not by using the right tricep to actively throw the angle open (another common form of hit impulse).  

 

 

 

I may be misinterpreting this or the video (or both) but this seems to contradict the video, which suggest actively using the arm muscles to unfold the elbow joint, or at least feeling like you are

Edited January 17, 2023 by TrueBlue4Lyfe

[Jim Waldron]

If you have a very fast pivot un-coiling speed early in Transition, then you will very likely need to use the muscles a bit to help out in the un-folding, same thing with the upper arms/shoulder sockets. Like Tiger early in his career did. That is caused by inertia acting on the three joints - a lot of golf swing learning is all about how to recognize (through Feel) and then control the two main Forces, inertia and pivot momentum. If momentum happens very fast and very early, inertia will "hold back" the lever angles from opening.

 

But too fast a Transition speed along with too fast overall Tempo present their own issues for the vast majority of golfers.

 

But yes - even when it is 100% passive right arm angle release starting at P5, it can feel to the golfer like right triceps is causing it. 

 

Tilt Switch is part of the Pivot momentum causing it to open up, not just rotation of the body. So is lower body weight/pressure shift early in Transition. 

[RoyalTroon]

2 hours ago, baudi said:

The ''data'' here is nothing but a showed set of sequences as interpreted by amateurs of which AMG set up a narrative and explains on how to improve their ill motion. The information is not new nor do the used software (and hardware) illuminate new knowledge. But the production quality has high value no doubt.

 

Yes, nothing really new about the trail arm, but like you say the video technology today for sequences is quite amazing.    I'm a little surprised after seeing thread appearances by AMG, Scheinblum, Hutt, Cox, Carraher, and Waldron, we didn't see Hughes, he has some great stuff too.  A good look from behind of trail arm straightening, and nuked ball at 2:16, some parts are little hard to hear above the dinosaur birds, but not too difficult to follow. 

 

 

[johnrobison]

3 hours ago, Jim Waldron said:

But as an exaggeration drill - the intent to un-fold "east" has a good track record for those golfers throwing the right arm angle at the ball.

I recall Nesbit and Jacobs talking about this 5+ years ago or so - that at the start of the downswing, the direction of the hands (hub path, I believe they called it) is away from the target. Not just intent, but actually.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

I recall Nesbit and Jacobs talking about this 5+ years ago or so - that at the start of the downswing, the direction of the hands (hub path, I believe they called it) is away from the target. Not just intent, but actually.

And for the hands to work away from the target and the elbow working toward the torso, the elbow needs to lose flex and the left arm needs to accelerate.

[ericg33]

40 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

And for the hands to work away from the target and the elbow working toward the torso, the elbow needs to lose flex and the left arm needs to accelerate.

And the left arm is going down when it starts to accelerate without rotating the left forearm?  Right shoulder stays up?

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

5 hours ago, baudi said:

The ''data'' here is nothing but a showed set of sequences as interpreted by amateurs of which AMG set up a narrative and explains on how to improve their ill motion. The information is not new nor do the used software (and hardware) illuminate new knowledge. But the production quality has high value no doubt.

 

My critique is more about the phenom of shallowing and the way novice players interpret and deal with this modern terminology. Search YT and will see tens of instructors who sort mimick  what Blake and Jerry somewhere show and try to get rid off for 10k a day. I think I know who coined the shallowing craze and the first time I heard about I wondered how much flatter do you want the club than p4. lol. In the old days reference of the club and arms were in relation to the shoulderline to the ground. Maybe I am wrong: refocus on 5 lessons; 4 magic moves; TGM; or older stuff and retrieve this shallowing move and how it is performed. Personally I think it is vague terminology and dependant on the type of transition and swing a player wishes to execute. This is what golf instruction is good at: reinvent itself; relabel and start explaining again. I am fuzzy about that.  

 

Best quote in the vid by Granato is about body dominant mindset: if you do not move the club properly you will not make good body movements because you hit it worse. Very true. This could have been said by Ernest Jones or Manuel dela Torre. Percy Boomer.  

 

 

 

Table for one…Mr. Bitterman. 

[Jim Waldron]

32 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

I recall Nesbit and Jacobs talking about this 5+ years ago or so - that at the start of the downswing, the direction of the hands (hub path, I believe they called it) is away from the target. Not just intent, but actually.

 

40 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

I recall Nesbit and Jacobs talking about this 5+ years ago or so - that at the start of the downswing, the direction of the hands (hub path, I believe they called it) is away from the target. Not just intent, but actually.

Yes of course - until left arm parallel, hands have to move "east" at very start of Transition. Its how the body works - when right arm un-folds, it moves hands east direction, after it passes below P5 or left arm parallel, the hands change direction and start to move in the general direction of north to northwest. I was referring to the common mistake of thinking you can direct any part of your body and/or club to a fixed location in space. It is only "easterly" for a short duration of time, but to exagerrate that can be a useful drill for folks who are directing the un-folding at the golf ball which is dead "North" direction.

 

This is really not at all a complex issue - IF ( and that is a big "if") you can see through the arm swing illusion and related 2D illusions.

 

Right elbow folds in backswing - which raises the left arm upwards in the shoulder sockets. It then simply reverses course in the downswing transition segment. Which lowers the left arm.

 

The dispute among the two camps I think is mostly due to binary or all or nothing thinking and not seeing the swing in true 3D. 

 

You can certainly have only a small degree of upper arm in the sockets lowering action, along with less of an opening in right arm angle, as Hogan did in his swing.  But he was short in stature (5'7") and had a fairly low left arm plane (flat) at the Top, and most of his swings were fairly wide at the Top, 75 degree or a bit more right elbow bend, seldom past 90. Meaning he did not have a lot of independent arm motion in his swing in the first place.

 

Or you can have the opposite arm motion, a lot of independent in the shoulder sockets motion.

 

Most good players are right in the middle between those two extreme examples.

 

The un-folding of the right elbow in the downswing will shallow the shaft - assuming you are a. pivoting properly and b. are blending the pivot and the lever action properly. What I call "basic shallowing".

 

 

 

He had around 45 degrees of right arm bend at P6 and same or nearly the same angle at impact. 

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

And Gankas commenting on Monte’s IG excerpt of AMG video - on body rotation as a steepener… I’d love to see his ‘measured proof’ that it’s a shallower… 🍿

[wrm2120]

Another gentleman saying the same thing it seems. Some good nuggets here. 

 

 

 

[Krt22]

11 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

And Gankas commenting on Monte’s IG excerpt of AMG video - on body rotation as a steepener… I’d love to see his ‘measured proof’ that it’s a shallower… 🍿

I love Gankas, highly entertaining guy, has great players in his stable, but the definitions he likes to use just doesn't always align with the data. I am sure some of the terminology is highly subjective, but some of it just isn't.

 

The really funny part of his pattern is it's really not radically different than what the AMG guys advocate, but there is a clear difference in how he markets it and what terminology he uses.

 

The even more funny part is in his patented helicopter swing, he raises the arms, then adds the pivot while his arms come across his chest (which folds the trail arm). If we simply undo those two moves in transition, it's essentially identical to what AMG says it is. If you don't do those two things, you would completely whiff unless you steepen with the body. 

 

Steep body, shallow arms is a well known/advocated match up.

[gators78]

Huge props for using 3D data auto support and explain shallowing in as simple a way as possible.

Very impressed with their video. This covers both the “why” and “just tell me what” crowds.

Edited January 18, 2023 by gators78

[LeftDaddy]

Gankas disciple here. I retooled my swing over the last 2 years as part of his online program. I’d recommend it to anyone. No more back pain. Handicap has dropped from  shaky 15 to solid 9, and distance has increased. I’ve completely eliminated my hook and I don’t slice either. I have 2 holes-in-one in the last 2 years. Had never had one 20 years prior. 

Anyway, I don’t necessarily see this video as anything different than (a) feel vs real, and (b) what are you optimizing for (speed or consistency or both)?  AMG and GG seem to be lobbing opposing swing methods at us, but to some extent it comes down to how we talk about it more than any major differences. 

 

I’ll admit that since working on the GG pivot, I haven’t figured out (until now) why my hand path had gotten too far toward the ball. Part of me likes this arm straightening, if for no other reason than it helps me keep my hands in. That said, arm straightENING is the key addition to the word here. They aren’t saying the trail arm goes dead straight. It is straightening. If you look at GGs guys, their arms straighten on full swings too. It’s just a matter of feel vs real. Also, GG is an “arms up” guy, but again feel vs real. That feel allowed me to get rotated open at impact when I wasn’t before. Does my arm stay up?  No. But that feel helped me to pin the lead arm to my chest and allow my body to release the club vs arms. 
 

I’m not here to debate all of the seeming differences between the two. Either can work depending on how it resonates with you and what you optimize for. I personally see AMG as more “characterizing what GEARS shows that pros do, even if their swings are imperfect” vs GG proposing a “theoretically optimal swing model but that he is ok with deviation as long as it matches up”. GGs approach has resonated more with me, and a few AMG videos in the past sent me down a bad path. But I did like some of what I saw in this video…I may think about this arm straightening concept (though GG would advocate instead for a lead arm stretch with major rotation, which I think will create more speed in the long run…but maybe not).  To each her own.