Playing professionals that did not have successful junior careers, nor play in college?

[rangersgoalie]

On 1/23/2023 at 10:56 PM, st1800e said:

Ok, you’re a player, I mean that sincerely. But why are you here asking us these questions?  And play as many tournaments as you can, only then will you find your game.  
 

Ben Hogan:
 

“Every day that you don't practice is one day longer before you achieve greatness”

Fwiw

nobody can tell you if you can “make it”, and there are plenty of ways to pursue it.

someone else mentioned not giving up amateur status right away, and I am usually a fan of that.  I’m in Southern CA and between southern ca and possibly joining Northern Cal golf association, you can find a pretty good schedule of nice events and good courses to compete on.

from my experiences, being able to play 3+ round events is huge for developing the ability to compete through all the ups and downs.  Plus, if you aren’t highly competitive in amateur golf, that’s a pretty solid assessment that way more work needs done.

 

playing one day mini tour events and only Monday qualifiers can often create some development issues IMO.  To succeed professionally, you need to prepare, game plan, and learn how to grind for multiple rounds 

 

two cents worth. 
 

im in Orange County if you ever want any feedback

[Abh159]

29 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

It's probably more attainable than a high paying tour player job

 

The caddie to "high paying tour player" ratio is 1:1 so the odds are about the same.

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

 

 

Okay but the idea that a high paying caddie job is really attainable? Do you agree with that?

It's more of a long shot, imo.

 

or a really long road of paying your dues and finally getting "lucky" enough to get on a top player's bag.

It depends.  If I were a single man in need of adventure , I know of a journeyman bag I could get at least part of the time , right now.   It’s like most jobs.  Some people stand out for wrong reasons.  Most are forgettable and then some stand out for the right reasons. You hire those folks on the spot and then worry about what to put them to work doing.  
 

so it depends on who the applicant is.  Take Michael Greller.  ( sic?) he had very little experience when he landed that job. But he stood out to JT in a positive way.  Who then told his pal jordan about him.  And now instead of wiping kids noses , he’s making a living he can retire from. In theory.  Or at least parlay into an announcers job.  If Jordan fired him , his phone would melt down with texts.  

[Krt22]

17 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

The caddie to "high paying tour player" ratio is 1:1 so the odds are about the same.

The number of available jobs and being able to perform said job are two different things. The odds of becoming either are not based on random chance

[JDSPGA]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:29 PM, Hkovo17 said:

For the Tour a +5 wouldn't even come close to cutting it - you'd need to get to a point where a 67-69 is a bad day at your home track. 59 should happen every couple of months. 

 

I totally get your point, as I agree most people truly don't understand how freaking good PGA Tour players are, but 59 every couple of months is a stretch. Max Homa said he's never shot 59, and he's pretty good....

[straightshot7]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

It depends.  If I were a single man in need of adventure , I know of a journeyman bag I could get at least part of the time , right now.   It’s like most jobs.  Some people stand out for wrong reasons.  Most are forgettable and then some stand out for the right reasons. You hire those folks on the spot and then worry about what to put them to work doing.  
 

so it depends on who the applicant is.  Take Michael Greller.  ( sic?) he had very little experience when he landed that job. But he stood out to JT in a positive way.  Who then told his pal jordan about him.  And now instead of wiping kids noses , he’s making a living he can retire from. In theory.  Or at least parlay into an announcers job.  If Jordan fired him , his phone would melt down with texts.  

The original statement I quoted included:

"caddies are often good players 

get paid a lot 

get to play and be around the game a lot"

 

That's the statement I was responding to. 

and in my post which you responded to, I said “high paying caddie job”. 
 

Does a journeyman bag pay a lot? I don't think so.

 

I think Michael Greller himself would tell you he hit the lottery. People do win the lottery, but it's not the norm.

 

Which bags pay a lot? Probably top 50. Even if we are generous and say top 150 on the PGA Tour...

 

If any of those guys were to post the job of being their caddie online, they'd get thousands of applicants. Probably hundreds of thousands of applicants. If not millions. 

 

Anytime you have that many willing applicants and 150 openings...that's a very very, almost impossible position to attain. Mathematically. 

 

it doesn't matter if you're the smartest, most like-able, most charismatic, or most experienced guy in the world. Odds are you aren't even going to get looked at in that scenario. Unless, you are very well connected.

Look at some of the other posts above. I would bet that anyone on this board who has experience pursuing a caddie career, would tell you it is incredibly difficult to get onto a well paying bag.

 

Why wouldn't it be? Nothing high paying in this life comes easy. Except maybe crime which is another story.

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by straightshot7

[Hkovo17]

I'm starting to realize that I need to be in a physical environment that allows for year-round golf and go from there.

FL, CA, AZ, or NV. Play as an Am year-round in one of those states, fly down randomly to play on the MLGT in West Palm as an amateur a few times a year (flights there are cheap (luckily can still work from home too)), and get a coach. Work on the game during lunch time, play 9 or 18 early in the morning before work, or after work. Being Philly does not allow this, solely based on climate here in the tristate. The weather sort of sucks up here.

There's ways to do this intelligently. Jumping in headfirst as a self-designated playing pro is no different than jumping into year-round golf as a competitive amateur, and playing on mini tours as an Am because you can still play with the pros. Obviously there's an argument to be had for having a wife and kid at home and staring over a 5-footer that will win you $1,500 versus $500 (maybe that is the difference), but I have to imagine it's not too different. Winning is winning and a 5-footer to win doesn't care if you're and Am or Pro. So it's really all in your head at that point. The field is the same.

The one guy commented on the pros not being "outstanding" and he's right. They're just solid. I will say their wedge play is better than most, but most people who are good as Ams can hit the shots they hit, hit the distance they hit, etc... but there is a difference in the wedge play... I wouldn't even say that much of a difference in the putter but will probably get stoned for saying that.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, straightshot7 said:

The original statement I quoted included:

"caddies are often good players 

get paid a lot 

get to play and be around the game a lot"

 

That's the statement I was responding to. 

and in my post which you responded to, I said “high paying caddie job”. 
 

Does a journeyman bag pay a lot? I don't think so.

 

I think Michael Greller himself would tell you he hit the lottery. People do win the lottery, but it's not the norm.

 

Which bags pay a lot? Probably top 50. Even if we are generous and say top 150 on the PGA Tour...

 

If any of those guys were to post the job of being their caddie online, they'd get thousands of applicants. Probably hundreds of thousands of applicants. If not millions. 

 

Anytime you have that many willing applicants and 150 openings...that's a very very, almost impossible position to attain. Mathematically. 

 

it doesn't matter if you're the smartest, most like-able, most charismatic, or most experienced guy in the world. Odds are you aren't even going to get looked at in that scenario. Unless, you are very well connected.

Look at some of the other posts above. I would bet that anyone on this board who has experience pursuing a caddie career, would tell you it is incredibly difficult to get onto a well paying bag.

 

Why wouldn't it be? Nothing high paying in this life comes easy. Except maybe crime which is another story.

 

 

 

No real argument there from me.  I just am biased I guess. I don’t see things as such a low chance , I’ve always networked in the 1percentile so to speak. Being connected isn’t by chance.  It’s always due to skill. Nepotism will only get you the interview, maybe even an entry level job. But it won’t keep you in the loop for long.  So point taken.  But it just depends on the person . I don’t think it’s chance at all. 

[aus10KC]

No Texas? Seems like it would be the cheapest, centrally located and lots of good golf options.

[jdl]

On 1/25/2023 at 9:44 AM, jdl said:

Timely twitter thread - click the link to read it all.

 

 

 

And Ben just won the recent KF event in a playoff!

[golferdude54]

Guys, when someone is in their late 20s and they haven’t made it on tour yet or didn’t perform well enough in junior or college golf, it’s not because they haven’t played enough tournaments. It’s because their technique have not been refined and ingrained enough to outlast tournaments.
 

A golfer is never going to make it on tour if they just played on the course everyday from the age of 1 and completely ignored the range and putting green, the root all lies in how well their technique is and how ingrained it is.
 

Why do you think Tiger had such a year in 2000? Because he spent 1998 at the range working all day everyday (outside of tournaments) on changing his swing mechanics because in his view, he didn’t think it was good and consistent enough even though he won the Masters by 12 strokes in 1997.
 

Stephen Curry became who he is, the best shooter of all time, by working on changing his shot mechanics in high school so he could get a higher and quicker release point; if he had stuck with his old shot, he never would’ve made it to the NBA at his size or even Division I college ball.
 

Ben Hogan didn’t succeed in amateur golf and early on as a pro because his mechanics at the time was an unplayable hook, he spent most of his 20s correcting it and didn’t make it on tour until he was 28, same with Lee Trevino. Now they have 9 and 6 majors to their names, respectively.

 

This is what John Wooden, the best college basketball coach of all time, said about skill vs experience:

 

“As much as I value experience, and I value it greatly, I would rather take someone with a lot of skill (who knows how to do it properly) and little experience (not played much competitively) than someone with a lot of experience (played a lot competitively) and little skill (technique is bad).”

[stryper]

Didn’t read the whole thread, and didn’t see it in the OP, but unless our wannabe pro is playing to a +6 that travels on the longest, most difficult courses in the world, with real money on the line, I think we’ve got a nonstarter here. 😳

[PureStrikes54]

14 hours ago, Hkovo17 said:

I'm starting to realize that I need to be in a physical environment that allows for year-round golf and go from there.

FL, CA, AZ, or NV. Play as an Am year-round in one of those states, fly down randomly to play on the MLGT in West Palm as an amateur a few times a year (flights there are cheap (luckily can still work from home too)), and get a coach. Work on the game during lunch time, play 9 or 18 early in the morning before work, or after work. Being Philly does not allow this, solely based on climate here in the tristate. The weather sort of sucks up here.

There's ways to do this intelligently. Jumping in headfirst as a self-designated playing pro is no different than jumping into year-round golf as a competitive amateur, and playing on mini tours as an Am because you can still play with the pros. Obviously there's an argument to be had for having a wife and kid at home and staring over a 5-footer that will win you $1,500 versus $500 (maybe that is the difference), but I have to imagine it's not too different. Winning is winning and a 5-footer to win doesn't care if you're and Am or Pro. So it's really all in your head at that point. The field is the same.

The one guy commented on the pros not being "outstanding" and he's right. They're just solid. I will say their wedge play is better than most, but most people who are good as Ams can hit the shots they hit, hit the distance they hit, etc... but there is a difference in the wedge play... I wouldn't even say that much of a difference in the putter but will probably get stoned for saying that.

 

 

After reading this, it's ultimately up to you, but would strongly caution against giving up the am status. Trying to play professional golf with a job is essentially a non-starter. You are at a massive disadvantage to players grinding all day even if you have more "talent" on paper. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by PureStrikes54

[wildcatden]

@Hkovo17  - You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

[Hkovo17]

If you never try, you'll never know... I agree!

Baby steps though... Moving to a state that allows for year-around golf, and to an area that allows for affordable/good golf (maybe south of LA is not best lol) is the first step. Register for a few am events, get a coach, work on the game in between WFH sessions (luckily if on West Coast, I can play in the afternoon because I'll be on East Coast hours). If I start playing decently well doing that, I'll give it a go. 

I honestly think part of this too is having the bug and it being February in the Northeast. Cold, rainy, wet... Not what you want. 

Golf is a big passion of mine so it's about time I move to an area that allows me to play year-around (and to an area that's an easy drive to a good course) and going from there. No sense in jumping head first into it I think. Maybe I'll be perfectly content with just being able to play golf all the time, and not having to do it at a pro level.

 

[golfandfishing]

Here’s a thing - pick a decent size metro area and go find the money games where the local sticks play. Once you can pick off ALL of those guys regularly ask them where they play when they aren’t playing there - that’s the real money game with the real players. These are all players at least 3 levels away from the KFT. Can you beat these guys who have jobs and families and can shoot 67 on Friday afternoon after working all week? There are thousands of players like that in the US. 

[kekoa]

OP, just to confirm.  Do you plan on working a real job while trying to go pro?   If that is the case, I'd say your chances go down exponentially.

 

If you are able to take a few year off from work and live off your parent's dime, I'd start the process tomorrow instead of wasting days pondering the idea.  

 

Good luck either way.

[stryper]

I think the OP would do well to search the old Dan Plan thread here and maybe read Tom Coyne’s Paper Tiger, where he writes on page 81, “they should amend those ads on TV—These guys are good.  How good?  You’ve got now f*cking idea.”  

[Hkovo17]

edit/delete

Edited January 31, 2023 by Hkovo17

[Blaiser]

Maybe I have a bit of a hippie attitude here but I say go for it, dude.

 

Yes it's hard. Yes it's a long shot. You already know that, so I'm not loving the cynical posts I've read.

 

So let's say you give it a couple years and it doesn't work out. At least you can always say you gave it a shot, and you'll probably have some amazing stories and memories along the way. 10 years ago I did something similar (different sport) and moved out of the country for a while. Did I come back with less money and a gap on my resume? Yup. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

In fact, I'd put it on your resume that you had the guts to put it all on the line to live your dream. Even if it is a pipe dream.

 

I'd hire someone like you that did that, and I'm certain I'm not the only one. Someone who went through some real adversity and pushed themselves to their limit to achieve what they really wanted. I'd want that on my team.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Blaiser

[ChristopherMcDonald]

Played with a really nice kid yesterday at Los Serranos in Southern California. Going to be taking his PAT test these in a few weeks. Couple of things I noted about him & his game:

1. He was very humble. Understood his 1 handicap is far behind what he'd need for the tour, but right in line with what's needed to pass the PAT. Very grounded individual.
2. He had tons of natural talent, hit it a mile, etc. Sound the ball made was IMMENSE. He was hurting that thing.

3. He had obvious dedication: he was 21 years old and plays almost every day, and works at a course. California native so there's no such thing as golf season to us so I believe the every day thing.
 

I know obviously nothing of OP's game HOWEVER I think the kid I played with yesterday was on a more realistic path, with lofty aspirations of maybe sharpening his game enough to make a jump at the tour.

 

Many like him, and better golfers, never even sniff the tour. You really have to want it, be something special & be willing to make all the necessary sacrifices to do achieve it. Should be noted this is NOT a knock on him by any stretch either, dude could not have been nicer and was a pleasure to have in our group. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by ChristopherMcDonald

[PedronNiall]

Isn't Tommy "Two Gloves" the poster child for this? Built his swing himself beating balls after his shifts at some warehouse until it was consistent enough to Monday qualify and the rest is history.

 

There's also a guy--mentioned in the favorite tour pictures thread--from the 60s/70s who was an accountant and decided to turn pro later in life.

 

Also the Navy guy who Monday qualified for the Sony a few years back and made the cut at a few events after. I think he was still in the service while playing and may have drifted back to that full time only eventually.

 

Pretty sure a number of the journeymen players who finally break through for a year or three, maybe never winning but being in the top 25 ten or more weeks for those peak seasons, then fade back down are often relative unknowns. They grind it out for years, drifting up and down from the Nike/Web.com/Korn Ferry until they finally have their moments. I can't really deny there's merit in burning hard for all those years barely getting by if it pays off in enough total dollars to hit those PGA retirement requirements or at least enough winning and endorsement bucks to vest and see close to 5-figure interest annually if you did it right.

 

As to the OP: if you have to ask you probably don't have it in you, point blank. Not saying you can't get what it takes, but 99.99% of the people I've met who have achieved outsized success in anything did it because they had a drive to do so that they couldn't turn off. I mean that, literally. Not a one of them could stop striving for whatever it is they eventually found success in. Almost every single one of them are obsessed with what they're great at and nothing could get in the way.

 

You know what Arnold--the other Arnold--did when his mom called him and said his father died during a Mr. Olympia? He said that he'd had the conversations he needed to have with him and he'd pay his respects when he could but that he wasn't missing the competition for the funeral. He won, by the way. He also worked construction and went to school while maintaining his two-a-day workouts to win most of his titles.

 

You don't have to be that devoted, but just know many who reach those heights are that devoted, do whatever it takes to win, and likely never asked strangers what it takes to make it. To be fair, this forum does give an exceptional opportunity to access the minds of people who've been around top golfers, but my take is if you were really motivated, wild horses couldn't have dragged you away from at least getting 30 seconds with a few of the pros you ran into and asking them to tell you unequivocally what it takes to make it.

 

Imagine someone who says he wants to be a professional driver being at a track day with a handful of F1, Indy, LeMans, ALMS, or NASCAR drivers then hopping on an autocross forum to ask the enthusiast crowd how to get there instead of bending the ear of those currently living it.

 

If I seem harsh it's because I'm being harsh. You're not serious about it now because if you were you wouldn't be dipping your little toes in the water asking a few vague questions on a forum. You did get some super nice guys who said they'd be willing to sit down with you, which is awesome, but I honestly don't believe you have the mindset to be worth their time & energy.

 

Lastly, if you can't take a few forum strangers hitting you with hard truths I don't know how you'd ever survive the loneliness of tour life or the energy of any and everyone else also trying to make the cut/keep their card doing everything they can to make sure you don't and they do.

[golfandfishing]

On 2/17/2023 at 3:13 PM, ChristopherMcDonald said:

Played with a really nice kid yesterday at Los Serranos in Southern California. Going to be taking his PAT test these in a few weeks. Couple of things I noted about him & his game:

1. He was very humble. Understood his 1 handicap is far behind what he'd need for the tour, but right in line with what's needed to pass the PAT. Very grounded individual.
2. He had tons of natural talent, hit it a mile, etc. Sound the ball made was IMMENSE. He was hurting that thing.

3. He had obvious dedication: he was 21 years old and plays almost every day, and works at a course. California native so there's no such thing as golf season to us so I believe the every day thing.
 

I know obviously nothing of OP's game HOWEVER I think the kid I played with yesterday was on a more realistic path, with lofty aspirations of maybe sharpening his game enough to make a jump at the tour.

 

Many like him, and better golfers, never even sniff the tour. You really have to want it, be something special & be willing to make all the necessary sacrifices to do achieve it. Should be noted this is NOT a knock on him by any stretch either, dude could not have been nicer and was a pleasure to have in our group. 

The PAT is absolutely not on any path to “the tour”. It’s just not a factor in the least and I’d guess a decent number of tour players couldn’t even tell you what it is. The PAT is for people who are entering the golf business as PGA professionals, not PGA Tour players. If he is an OUTSTANDING player in his section one day he might, maybe, possibly could get into a pga tour event by winning his section championship. But I’d be shocked if any current pga tour players have ever entered a PAT or even know what it is. But if he plays to a 1 he should breeze through the PAT, couple 77s on a milquetoast course from the whitey’s usually does it.  

[ChristopherMcDonald]

3 hours ago, golfandfishing said:

The PAT is absolutely not on any path to “the tour”. It’s just not a factor in the least and I’d guess a decent number of tour players couldn’t even tell you what it is. The PAT is for people who are entering the golf business as PGA professionals, not PGA Tour players. If he is an OUTSTANDING player in his section one day he might, maybe, possibly could get into a pga tour event by winning his section championship. But I’d be shocked if any current pga tour players have ever entered a PAT or even know what it is. But if he plays to a 1 he should breeze through the PAT, couple 77s on a milquetoast course from the whitey’s usually does it.  

 

For what it's worth, I'm 100% aware the PAT isn't a path to tour. When I said a reasonable path, I meant a reasonable path to being someone who works with golf (in some capacity) as their profession. He still has a dream and good on him for keeping it in the back of his mind whilst remaining grounded. 

 

I've played with kids around his age who did end up making the tour. Their games were VERY different. 

[golfandfishing]

3 hours ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:

 

For what it's worth, I'm 100% aware the PAT isn't a path to tour. When I said a reasonable path, I meant a reasonable path to being someone who works with golf (in some capacity) as their profession. He still has a dream and good on him for keeping it in the back of his mind whilst remaining grounded. 

 

I've played with kids around his age who did end up making the tour. Their games were VERY different. 

FWIW - an assistant pro is now T9 at the Honda too!  

[MattM97]

OP I'm just going to give my perspective almost doing this in a different sport, I'm not going to say do it or not just going to give what I was looking at not long ago in my life during my mid 20s.

 

Before golf I was an athlete in an Olympic sport aiming at the 2020 and 2024 Olympics as my ultimate end goals. I was doing half decent but juggling a full day of work to cover all of my training, travel, events, equipment, coaching, rehab, etc because I had zero sponsors, ZERO. Then I had my training sessions leading to 12-18 hour days, a top athlete cannot do well over time with 12-18 hour days but I still had a dream at one point so I was grinding hard. 

 

Finally it got to the point it was too much for me and my coach had a talk with me. He said I had the potential to reach my end goal of the Olympics but I needed to dedicated 8-10 hours a day to training and I couldn't do that working. He wanted to see if I was willing to take out loans and go into debt for years to fund my training, living expenses, and any other expenses with no potential of a pay off since just wasn't a sport that paid. Was 6 figures of debt worth it to reach a goal? Well that depends on you. Also depends if you have family/friends that would back you and accept payment slower than banks or maybe an early inheritance, some do that. 

 

Also during this time my social life was non-existent, relationships basically fell apart, vacation time all gone to my sport, spending money super limited. I was basically prisoner to the sport and absolutely began to hate it. I ended up completely walking away from the sport because I absolutely hated it, didn't care about my dreams, was just angry at the time wasted and other opportunities lost. 

 

Again not saying to do it or not just look at the potential fallout and damage you'll need to fix if it doesn't work out, if you do go through with it I hope it works out but don't destroy your future if you cannot recover it. 

[3whacker]

I used to caddie on the Golden State Tour ( now called the Asher Tour) since Mr Ives passed away...and I was a legit 2.2 handicap in my 40's , but i caddied for a friend of mine who was a young pro , and we got paired in a group with my then teaching pro who was in his mid 40's just biding his time teaching in Laguna Beach till he turned 50, he even played the regular tour when he was in his late 20's to mid 30s and even led the Tour in putting back when they average putts per round...I had never seen my pro play a full round  of gold until then and he shot five under from the back tees at Lakewood GC, my friend shot 3 over, and all I could think during the round is can you hit it as far as these guys....not only NO, but HECK NO....can you roll it as well as these guys...same answer

moral is until you play against legit pros from the back tees with firm fairways and verticut greens, with money on the line, and not the nassau kind but the entry fee kind, you have no idea how good you have to be to have a staff bag with your name on it, along with a sponsor or four...Go to Monday qualifier events just to see who is entered and if you cant beat them consistently  your chances are slim and none

[golferdude54]

Jack Nicklaus said in his autobiography once every generation there is a self-taught player who pops up into superstardom in their late 20s-30.
 

He said it was because that kind of player went through a hell of a lot of trial and error than anyone else who grew up with a coach figuring out what makes it work.

 

And usually they don’t lose their games because they already learned what it took to get their game to the top level so they never get lost as a result. That’s how Trevino was so consistent for so long.
 

Seve was an anomaly in that he became a superstar by 20 but that was because of his practice routine as a kid where he would hit long irons off the beach sand in his hometown. It’s pretty easy to become really freaking good so fast as he did when you can hit the ball first with a 3 iron consistently off sand for 10 hours a day.

[Ronnie Mundt]

I don’t know sh!t about what it takes to “make it” in golf these days. I’m a single digit handicapper and just play for fun. I do love golf and love following golf. That means nothing.

 

What I do know is every few weeks on the GolfWrx Tour Talk thread someone posts a real-time update on how a Monday qualifier is going to get into that week’s tournament…and the scores are bonkers. Dudes are shooting 64-65 and are playing in a 7-man playoff for a single spot. This is against former PGA Tour winners, KFT up-and- commers, college and am superstars, etc. And on courses that are sometimes absurd. I don’t know what sport these guys are playing. It’s not what my a** is doing a few times a month laughing with my buddies and drinking a couple of cold ones.

 

Godspeed, BROHAM.