The end of the flagstick in/out debate.

[nsxguy]

Just now, Soloman1 said:

😌 🙂😉

 

Can you see these emojis, or is it dependent on OS?
 

 

What emojis ?

 

 

 

 

 

j/k  🙃

 

[Double Mocha Man]

4 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

😌 🙂😉

 

Can you see these emojis, or is it dependent on OS?
 

 

Can't see a thing.  I'm on MS-DOS.

[Newby]

5 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

😌 🙂😉

 

Can you see these emojis, or is it dependent on OS?
 

They seem to have some sort of small landscape attached  🥳

[ThinkingPlus]

36 minutes ago, Is Golf Fun or Work said:

Trust the science https://golf.com/news/tournaments/dave-pelz-the-science-proves-you-should-leave-the-flagstick-in-when-you-putt-2/

Pelz study is borderline worthless.  He picked 3, 6, and 9 feet past the hole which is the same set of distances he used for his chipping study.  He came to the earth shattering conclusion that it didn't make any difference for 3 feet and helped at 6 and 9 feet.  Captain obvious.  If you are blowing putts past by 6 or 9 feet then, yes, please leave the flagstick in.  The interesting putting distances are more like every half foot between 2 and 5 feet past the hole and do it for various green speeds and pin types (large diameter, small diameter, stiff, flexible).  Also vary how well the hole is cut and how vertical the stick sits in the cup.  Some studies have included those situations and come to far different conclusions on the conditions under which the flag left in helps.

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

18 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Pelz study is borderline worthless.  He picked 3, 6, and 9 feet past the hole which is the same set of distances he used for his chipping study.  He came to the earth shattering conclusion that it didn't make any difference for 3 feet and helped at 6 and 9 feet.  Captain obvious.  If you are blowing putts past by 6 or 9 feet then, yes, please leave the flagstick in.  The interesting putting distances are more like every half foot between 2 and 5 feet past the hole and do it for various green speeds and pin types (large diameter, small diameter, stiff, flexible).  Also vary how well the hole is cut and how vertical the stick sits in the cup.  Some studies have included those situations and come to far different conclusions on the conditions under which the flag left in helps.

Guess you missed the 'trust the science' sarcasm....you do what you like, seems like an excuse when miss to blame flagstick, I'm sure it happens, as seen it myself, also have seen where it's helped...the debate will go on

[ThinkingPlus]

8 minutes ago, Is Golf Fun or Work said:

Guess you missed the 'trust the science' sarcasm....you do what you like, seems like an excuse when miss to blame flagstick, I'm sure it happens, as seen it myself, also have seen where it's helped...the debate will go on

Yes, I did miss the sarcasm. As I and others have said, if you can control speed on a putt, pull the flag.  If you can't control the speed well, then leave it in.  Also, if it doesn't matter much whether you make or miss a putt, then leaving it in is fine. 

[huskydawg]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Pelz study is borderline worthless.  He picked 3, 6, and 9 feet past the hole which is the same set of distances he used for his chipping study.  He came to the earth shattering conclusion that it didn't make any difference for 3 feet and helped at 6 and 9 feet.  Captain obvious.  If you are blowing putts past by 6 or 9 feet then, yes, please leave the flagstick in.  The interesting putting distances are more like every half foot between 2 and 5 feet past the hole and do it for various green speeds and pin types (large diameter, small diameter, stiff, flexible).  Also vary how well the hole is cut and how vertical the stick sits in the cup.  Some studies have included those situations and come to far different conclusions on the conditions under which the flag left in helps.

I honestly felt I have been screwed a couple times by large diameter flagsticks. Not often enough to change though.

 

I think you are correct though, not enough variables have been weighed. About a half-year ago there was a thread about the volcano effect or donut effect around the hole where people stepped around the hole to make it raised compared to its surroundings. If that is so, then does this not produce an upward trajectory as the ball approaches the hole? If there is a sufficient vector in the postive y-axis direction, doesn't this make glancing off the flagstick a more likely occurrence?

 

Of course then we have to compare that likelihood to samples where it hits the back of the cup, but maybe that full 4.25" diameter might be enough for gravity to work its magic.

[North Texas]

4 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Pelz study is borderline worthless.  He picked 3, 6, and 9 feet past the hole which is the same set of distances he used for his chipping study.  He came to the earth shattering conclusion that it didn't make any difference for 3 feet and helped at 6 and 9 feet.  Captain obvious.  If you are blowing putts past by 6 or 9 feet then, yes, please leave the flagstick in.  The interesting putting distances are more like every half foot between 2 and 5 feet past the hole and do it for various green speeds and pin types (large diameter, small diameter, stiff, flexible).  Also vary how well the hole is cut and how vertical the stick sits in the cup.  Some studies have included those situations and come to far different conclusions on the conditions under which the flag left in helps.

 

I've always thought that if you hit a putt 3 foot past the hole you hit it too damn hard. But I'm not a scientist. 

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

I've always thought that if you hit a putt 3 foot past the hole you hit it too damn hard. But I'm not a scientist. 

That's more than I want for a comeback putt, but sometimes green speeds and slope make it tough to always avoid.

[naval2006]

Whether the pole sends the ball out of the hole is most of the times to do with speed and a line that is not dead center.   A ball that rolls softly is way more likely to get in the hole with or without the stick in.

[Newby]

The end of the flagstick in/out debate?

 

Obviously not and without any new information.

[DaveLeeNC]

This event will be quite rare and hardly a factor in the general 'in or out' discussion. But one time I saw a putt which was across a slope (uphill putt breaking left). And that uphill slope got much steeper as you 'went down the hill away from the pin'. Without the pin the putt would probably have lipped out on the low side and been thrown somewhat up the hill (or maybe gone in - but I doubt it). What happened is that the putt hit the pin and bounced dead left and went off the green and down the hill - next shot was a tough 20 yard pitch shot. 

 

It was kind of an eye opener, but I am still a leave the pin n golfer. 

 

dave

[jholz]

I've really committed to getting used to putting with the flagstick in the hole. When the rule changed, I figured that most people would opt to leave the flag in, and it's a pain to be the one person who insists on taking it out, so I have done my best.

 

But, I did grow up playing before the rule change - and I got used to practicing and playing with the flag out. I would say that "flag out" is my most comfortable and preferred option.

 

The biggest issue for me is a mental one. With the flag in, I do find myself subconsciously aiming for the side of the hole, if you know what I mean. 

 

It's taken a lot of practice to get over that bugaboo.

 

In the end, I'd have to say the flag saves as many putts as it rejects - as does the empty hole. Overall, it's a wash.

[Double Mocha Man]

13 minutes ago, jholz said:

I've really committed to getting used to putting with the flagstick in the hole. When the rule changed, I figured that most people would opt to leave the flag in, and it's a pain to be the one person who insists on taking it out, so I have done my best.

 

But, I did grow up playing before the rule change - and I got used to practicing and playing with the flag out. I would say that "flag out" is my most comfortable and preferred option.

 

The biggest issue for me is a mental one. With the flag in, I do find myself subconsciously aiming for the side of the hole, if you know what I mean. 

 

It's taken a lot of practice to get over that bugaboo.

 

In the end, I'd have to say the flag saves as many putts as it rejects - as does the empty hole. Overall, it's a wash.

 

I've read that overall, leaving the pin in, you save .2192 strokes per round.  Sheesh, GHIN won't even let me post my score with a decimal point in it.

[jholz]

13 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

I've read that overall, leaving the pin in, you save .2192 strokes per round.  Sheesh, GHIN won't even let me post my score with a decimal point in it.

 

Over the course of a season in my recreational men's league...that's significant!!!

 

[Pepperturbo]

On 1/24/2023 at 1:39 PM, North Texas said:

 

After reading your post, I can truthfully say that I don't know what you are trying to say, lol. 

And, some people in various parts of the world still may think the earth is flat.  Is someone saying they don't have a point???? 😂

[Hawkeye77]

22 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

😌 🙂😉

 

Can you see these emojis, or is it dependent on OS?
 

 

 

Nope, and if they suddenly come back those of us that may be getting away with some "invisible" doozies could be in big trouble!

 

 

[Bushwood Country Club]

On 1/23/2023 at 2:20 PM, chisag said:

 

 

... I know you are familiar with another site doing an extensive test for putts rolling 3, 6 and 9 feet past the hole and when rolling it at a speed that would go 3 feet past all putts went in. But once you got to speeds that would roll the putt 6 and 9 feet past the hole, with both a rigid or flexible pins it was always an advantage to leave the pin in on both center hits and off center hits. And it wasn't even close. So it may be your attitude but it isn't based in actual testing. It never hurts to have the flag in and it often hurts to have it out, regardless of how fast the ball is rolling. 

agree 100%.  M&gTKDsPy did not get it wrong

[wobgon]

This debate to me is kind of like most other things in golf......Do most players benefit from using a lob wedge?   Some do and some don't....What difference does it really make to me what someone else prefers to do...........Yes, I know this is a golf forum where we discuss golf related topics.

[rogolf]

This "debate" will never be complete; everyone is entitled to their own opinions.  The Rules are the Rules, and they permit in or out.

 

[sui generis]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

This "debate" will never be complete; everyone is entitled to their own opinions.  The Rules are the Rules, and they permit in or out.

 

 

I spent decades badgering the USGA to get rid of old 15-3, the one that penalized a ball played from on the green for hitting the flagstick. In 2019, I decided that I could now die a happy man. Well, that hasn't quite happened yet, but at least now we all may leave the pin in. 😉

[jholz]

50 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I spent decades badgering the USGA to get rid of old 15-3, the one that penalized a ball played from on the green for hitting the flagstick. In 2019, I decided that I could now die a happy man. Well, that hasn't quite happened yet, but at least now we all may leave the pin in. 😉

 

Agh, now I have a specific target for my ire. If you'd just left well enough alone, we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

I'm left to assume you were born between 1946 and 1964... 😀

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

Agh, now I have a specific target for my ire. If you'd just left well enough alone, we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

I'm left to assume you were born between 1946 and 1964... 😀

Agree that the change fixed a problem that did not exist under the guise of helping POP.

[chisag]

On 1/25/2023 at 4:26 PM, ThinkingPlus said:

if you can control speed on a putt, pull the flag. 

 

 

... I am a die in the hole putter, speed control is the strength of my game and I rarely 3 putt. I rarely take the flag out and only if it's shadow is on my line or the wind is blowing it toward me.  

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, jholz said:

 

Agh, now I have a specific target for my ire. If you'd just left well enough alone, we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

I'm left to assume you were born between 1946 and 1964... 😀

 

Don't worry, I'm working on a few more. Such as, free relief from boundary objects and IO's in a penalty area plus a more lenient 9.4. Though it's likely I don't have "decades" to spare for these.

[Golferpaul]

And then there is the visual aspect.  Some of us like having the smaller target.  I don't know how you would do a study, but leaving the pin in might improve the putting stroke for some of us.

[bobfoster]

I leave it in (though that sounds kinda dirty). Because I'm lazy and now only play golf for fun so it doesn't really matter (to me). And it really does speed up play (a little) on weekend public golf courses.

 

If it did matter though? I've eaten all the stats (my friends here know I'm a numbers junkie). The jury is still out - there has been surprisingly little credible research done. And the results are decidedly mixed. In truth, given the immense variety of greens and green conditions and flags, (and the guy that is putting) there is simply no definitive answer. Sometimes leaving it in will help, other times it will hurt. And there's no real way of telling beforehand which it will be. The current stats show an almost randomized distribution. 

 

The ultimate "answer" is that there is no answer (well, maybe the answer is "42", for anyone here that has read Douglas Adams hahahaha). Every putt, on every green is different. 

[SteveTucson]

It's a matter of basic physics, if the ball is NOT traveling too fast when it reaches the cup, it will go in and stay in IF the flag stick is not in the way. The flag stick can not help a putt that isn't traveling too fast.

 

Can the flag stick in the cup stop a putt that is not going too fast, absolutely. This is especially true if the stick is leaning towards the ball's path for some reason, for example, it was inserted improperly or the wind is blowing. Personally I've seen dozens of putts that I felt would drop, but were kicked out by the flag stick. Bottom line is, the flag stick can ONLY help a putt that is going too fast when it reaches the cup. It's basic Newtonian physics.

 

Take Bryson DeCambeau as an example of someone who has changed his mind on this subject. When the rule changed back in 2019, "Mister Analyze Everything" was adamant about leaving the stick in always, even doing a demo on Feherty's show (I miss that show). Watch him now, he almost always removed the pin for putts under 20-30 feet. Why? I suspect because he's seen too many putts be kicked out by the flag stick. If you can control your speed, the flag stick CAN NOT help.

[Double Mocha Man]

13 hours ago, SteveTucson said:

... the flag stick can ONLY help a putt that is going too fast when it reaches the cup. 

 

 

Additionally, if the putt is going too fast and doesn't hit the flag stick almost exactly in the center it won't go in. Hit the flag stick left or right the ball glances out of the hole. Hit the flag stick dead center too fast and sometimes the ball will come right back at you.

[nsxguy]

15 hours ago, SteveTucson said:

It's a matter of basic physics, if the ball is NOT traveling too fast when it reaches the cup, it will go in and stay in IF the flag stick is not in the way. The flag stick can not help a putt that isn't traveling too fast.

 

Can the flag stick in the cup stop a putt that is not going too fast, absolutely. This is especially true if the stick is leaning towards the ball's path for some reason, for example, it was inserted improperly or the wind is blowing. Personally I've seen dozens of putts that I felt would drop, but were kicked out by the flag stick. Bottom line is, the flag stick can ONLY help a putt that is going too fast when it reaches the cup. It's basic Newtonian physics.

 

Take Bryson DeCambeau as an example of someone who has changed his mind on this subject. When the rule changed back in 2019, "Mister Analyze Everything" was adamant about leaving the stick in always, even doing a demo on Feherty's show (I miss that show). Watch him now, he almost always removed the pin for putts under 20-30 feet. Why? I suspect because he's seen too many putts be kicked out by the flag stick. If you can control your speed, the flag stick CAN NOT help.

 

Well, thank goodness someone has finally signed up to give us a definitive view on the subject. 

 

First I'll simply note that not many, and that includes you, consider any psychological view on the benefits, IF ANY, of having a stick to see or aim at. And I confess I wouldn't have any idea of how to prove any of that either way.

 

But the bottom line is, as implied by your very last sentence, as elsewhere, "If you can control your speed".

 

It has become increasingly obvious to me, watching golf on TV, that the pros often lack distance control, even in the under 30 foot "makeable" range. If THEY can't control their distances what chance do "we" have ?

 

They seem to leave far more (makeable) putts short than they hit past the hole, which, btw, makes me feel a LOT better about myself.   I seldom go more than 1 foot past the hole - and leave putts short far more often than those that go long. Hey, look at me. At least I have something in common with the pros. 

 

Maybe the pros SHOULD leave the pin in more often ? You know, so they have, even if just a tiny bit, more confidence that IF they hit a putt a bit too hard the stick MAY help them ?

 

As for the "dozens" of putts you felt would've dropped if the flag had been taken out,,,,,, that's part of the problem. You don't KNOW they would've gone in. You only "know" when you THINK they would've stayed in. And the putts that hit the flag and STAY in ? Well, those would've all gone in anyway, right ?

 

This is kinda sorta akin to players always remembering the bad breaks they get, but never seem to recall the favorable bounces, like that tree/post that kept their ball IN bounds rather than flying over the OB fence.

 

Point is, regardless of how many studies there are, the results are so close to 50/50, IMO, the only thing that matters is the individual golfer and their mindset.