identify antique gold clubs

[Newgurlfv]

Hi, 

We recently recovered my husband's grandfathers golf clubs after my son needed to do an antique school project. His grandfather received them from a friend that was from Germany at the time. That's all the information we have. I have looked up online and cannot find any that looks like the ones we have. I will attach a few pictures.

We are very interested to get approximate date or age of the clubs and the bag.

Thank you!

[elwhippy]

Never seen a swastika on a club before. 

[Swingingk]

28 minutes ago, elwhippy said:

Never seen a swastika on a club before. 

Neither have I, and on MacGregors no less.  It is also odd (and perhaps noteworthy) that these symbols are actually backwards of the famed originals from WW2.  I do not know what that means if anything although it is interesting.

[ezgoer]

I’m of zero help with club information but the swastika symbol was a religious symbol for good fortune I believe long before it was hijacked. I just saw the same symbols on some old hickory shafted clubs. Felt creepy so I looked it up. 

[bcstones]

I can't make out much on the wood...but it has a "cat" figure on top & "made in England xxxx" underneath - could that mean Slazenger? Also it looks as if there is a date impressed on the sole plate "Apr 24 2x" which would indicated between wars & the term "mid-iron" w/the number, didn't that occur around the '20s, before the name was dropped & only the number remained?

 

As for the swastika, Hitler took the symbol that is used by many cultures - Celtic, Norse, Buddist, Vedic, Sanskrit, Hopi, Navajo, etc...it had many spiritual meanings & is still used in healing ceremonies. Hitler misused the symbol, blackened it's meaning so that today, even now, it continues to be abused....the symbol is not going backward/counterclockwise, the "flags" indicate movement clockwise.

 

I have come across a couple of clubs that are marked "Special Services" which would have been at a Military Base for use by Soldiers (even had an old Ocean City salt water reel with USMC embossed on it...I put a "Globe & Anchor" pin on a rod handle for display & gifted it to a Vietnam Vet)...so perhaps these clubs might have been used similarly in pre-War II in Germany. 

WOW! Just tried something, copied the picture of the emblem (btw - is it on the bag someplace or on the woods?)...rotated it & enlarged it  Anyway, it clearly says at bottem "Trade England xxxx" (can't make out the last word)...is this some indication of trade between countries. and the symbol looks kinda sorta like a "C" w/something in the middle that ends in "liff"...."Cliff"?
AHHHH!!! "trade ENGLAND mark"...now what about the 'crest' of the "lion" or "panther" standing on ??? and what is below the "liff"???

Any ideas, anyone?

@Newgurlfv It might help if the family to find out a wee bit more history of their GrandFather, like where in Germany he was between the wars. He obviously was a golfer, those clubs look very interesting.

Edited January 24, 2023 by bcstones

[Swingingk]

I believe it says "Cliff Made".

[SnowbirdTom]

And the irons are MacGregor “Superb” (in script).  Google has no immediate results on that.

 

Below the big cat are the numbers 1871?

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by SnowbirdTom

[weakputt]

Here is my two cents:
Bag:

I have a 5" opening canvas and leather stove pipe bag with a stamped tin bottom. Very much like yours.

R. H. Burhke Co. - Chicago. PAT PEND. November of 1917.

Cliff & Co. may be the worlds oldest commercially made golf bag company.

Guessing like 1915 > 1925 circa.

Clubs:

I believe the cleeks etched into the irons are Celtic or Norse. Generally cleek symbols (like a pipe or arrow) were forged into the heads at the time of forging, but the reverse swastika looking symbols appear that they may have been scratched in at the time the club fitter put the clubs together. Or by the club owner. Two of them could also mean something.

Does grandaddy have any roots in Ireland, Scotland or Wales?

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

28 minutes ago, weakputt said:

Here is my two cents:
Bag:

I have a 5" opening canvas and leather stove pipe bag with a stamped tin bottom. Very much like yours.

R. H. Burhke Co. - Chicago. PAT PEND. November of 1917.

Cliff & Co. may be the worlds oldest commercially made golf bag company.

Guessing like 1915 > 1925 circa.

Clubs:

I believe the cleeks etched into the irons are Celtic or Norse. Generally cleek symbols (like a pipe or arrow) were forged into the heads at the time of forging, but the reverse swastika looking symbols appear that they may have been scratched in at the time the club fitter put the clubs together. Or by the club owner. Two of them could also mean something.

Does grandaddy have any roots in Ireland, Scotland or Wales?

Good work! CliffCo was a trademark of Jabez Cliff of Walsall, West Midlands. They were principally saddle makers, good ones too with patronage by the Royal family, and started making golf bags. You can still find big leather bags from the 1940s on various marketplaces, this one of yours is much earlier. They moved out of the Walsall factory abour 2010. They supplied the bags for my hickory rental business...that probably finished them off...lol

[Wham49]

I think the swastika was used on a Wisconsin made club, trying to remember the name

[ezgoer]

You people are amazing! Initial author of this post came to the right place. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by ezgoer

[AdamMH]

18 hours ago, Swingingk said:

Neither have I, and on MacGregors no less.  It is also odd (and perhaps noteworthy) that these symbols are actually backwards of the famed originals from WW2.  I do not know what that means if anything although it is interesting.

They're primarily Hindu symbols but date back several thousand years. Safe to say these are pre-war clubs though.

[bcstones]

7 hours ago, weakputt said:

 

Clubs:

I believe the cleeks etched into the irons are Celtic or Norse. Generally cleek symbols (like a pipe or arrow) were forged into the heads at the time of forging, but the Reverse Swastika Looking symbols appear that they may have been scratched in at the time the club fitter put the clubs together. Or by the club owner. Two of them could also mean something.

Does grandaddy have any roots in Ireland, Scotland or Wales?

again...the symbol is not "reversed" - think of  spinning flags on crossed shafts...as the shafts spin to the right, the flags will flow behind the stick towards the left. T is a clockwise, deosil, direction...considered to be a postiive forward direction...
And the symbol, by whatever name, dates back millennium across many cultures

[Wham49]

yes,, this was pre Third reich to begin with, If you look at ancient civ's many of them had one carved as you walked into their houses. Ironically A sign of good fortune

[bcstones]

just managed to revolve the iron back image....I'm pretty sure that it read "McGregor". MacGregor changed the name from McGregor to MacGregor sometime in the mid-thirties...which still supports the pre-3rd reich 

[Swingingk]

8 minutes ago, bcstones said:

just managed to revolve the iron back image....I'm pretty sure that it read "McGregor". MacGregor changed the name from McGregor to MacGregor sometime in the mid-thirties...which still supports the pre-3rd reich 

Yeah they're definitely pre Third Reich for sure and undoubtedly do not pertain to that certain group of nasties we all know.  I think your close on the mid-thirties guess too as the woods have what appears to be some form of steel shaft which would be correct for that era.

[bcstones]

2 minutes ago, Swingingk said:

Yeah they're definitely pre Third Reich for sure and undoubtedly do not pertain to that certain group of nasties we all know.  I think your close on the mid-thirties guess too as the woods have what appears to be some form of steel shaft which would be correct for that era.

makes me wonder what the shafts of the irons are...there are no pictures of the iron shafts. They still could be hickory shafts.

 

@Newgurlfv could you post some pictures of the iron shafts, perhaps even their grips and any markings on the shafts. Thank you for posting here & improving some history of this great Game

[darkhelmet]

Here's some patent information on the golf bag (confirming the Jabez Cliff Tibbits comment above):

 

[bcstones]

43 minutes ago, darkhelmet said:

Here's some patent information on the golf bag (confirming the Jabez Cliff Tibbits comment above):

 

off the patent #....cool, sure hope it helps @Newgurlfv & her son 

[Newgurlfv]

OMG!!! You guys are AWESOME!! You have provided me with much more information then I expected. I will post more pictures of the golf clubs in the next few days.

[northplatteriver]

The "Superb" woods show up in the MacGregor Kaplan catalog for page for 1933.  There is not any information on the "Superb" irons listed in the catalog, but I would assume they are very late 1920's early 1930's also. 

[bcstones]

6 hours ago, northplatteriver said:

The "Superb" woods show up in the MacGregor Kaplan catalog for page for 1933.  There is not any information on the "Superb" irons listed in the catalog, but I would assume they are very late 1920's early 1930's also. 

I must have a different MacGregor Kaplan's catalog (3rd edition 1982...1st edition was 1980, 2nd edition was 1981) , cuz it begins with 1935

[northplatteriver]

Mine is Second Edition Copyright 2000.  I find the "Superb" woods listed on page 2 of the 1933 section, actually it shows it as "MS Superb", so I am guessing the woods are a ladies model.  Clubs in mine begin in hickory era at 1918...

[bcstones]

1 hour ago, northplatteriver said:

Mine is Second Edition Copyright 2000.  I find the "Superb" woods listed on page 2 of the 1933 section, actually it shows it as "MS Superb", so I am guessing the woods are a ladies model.  Clubs in mine begin in hickory era at 1918...

Looks like the biggest difference is the publisher has moved from Glencoe, Ill to Rancho Mirage CA...cuz mine lists the 3 editions under the original copyright of 1980...now I gotta go look for more LOL

[Newgurlfv]

Hi everyone,

Here’s additional pictures as requested. 
thanks for all the info you are providing.

 

[bcstones]

4 hours ago, Newgurlfv said:

 

 

beautiful clubs & bag...they look like either pyratone or painted shafts which might put them in the 1930's era, but there are quite afew others here who would know better...

 

4 hours ago, Newgurlfv said:

 

 

 

[northplatteriver]

I think exact dates are going to be tough, but I am thinking early 1930's for irons and the woods even though they are listed for 1933 they could have been made a bit prior to this.  The patent dates on the sole plates are more in regards to the patent they had for the actual sole plate on the club.  this style of sole plate was used on many different models of MacGregor woods.  The steel shaft was recognized for play by the USGA in 1924.  Steel shafts had already been produced before then, but they were not put into serious production until the ruling golf bodies of the time recognized them for use in tournament play.  MacGregor began producing clubs with steel shafts immediately after this.  I think sentimental value is going to be greater than any actual sale value, but they are left-handed which does make them a bit less common.   I can think of few things that would make for a better family antique project than this.

[bcstones]

9 hours ago, northplatteriver said:

I think exact dates are going to be tough, but I am thinking early 1930's for irons and the woods even though they are listed for 1933 they could have been made a bit prior to this.  The patent dates on the sole plates are more in regards to the patent they had for the actual sole plate on the club.  this style of sole plate was used on many different models of MacGregor woods.  The steel shaft was recognized for play by the USGA in 1924.  Steel shafts had already been produced before then, but they were not put into serious production until the ruling golf bodies of the time recognized them for use in tournament play.  MacGregor began producing clubs with steel shafts immediately after this.  I think sentimental value is going to be greater than any actual sale value, but they are left-handed which does make them a bit less common.   I can think of few things that would make for a better family antique project than this.

oh, wow! thanks for the "left handed" recognition...never saw it till you mentioned it! LOL