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Wedge Leading Edge Grind Help


paulman21
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I'm looking at grinding some wedges myself (something similar to the pics below) and am a little thrown by what I've read on leading edge grinds/relief. I'm hoping for some help/explanation from people that have either done these grinds before or used similar wedges.

 

I've read that leading edge relief reduces effective bounce. This makes some sense to me as it narrows the sole a bit...but it also adds bounce at the leading edge.

 

I've also read this relief is good for firm conditions, let's you get the leading edge down under the ball easier (Tiger says this), and gets the leading edge to sit closer to the ground. This is where most of my confusion is. Doesn't this grind essentially add bounce at, and raise, the leading edge? So wouldn't that make it harder to get the LE under the ball and also be worse for firm/tight conditions? So if I soled the pictured wedges with the shaft vertical, the center bounce surface would be the primary point of contact with the ground, and the leading edge would sit higher (like what I've drawn) than if the leading edge relief wasn't there. I could see this being useful, if you like to use shaft lean, to keep the leading edge out of the dirt longer but it also seems like you run the risk of having the leading edge too high with a neutral/vertical shaft delivery...especially on firm/tight ground. 

 

So what am I missing and/or not understanding? Is the purpose of the LE relief to allow the use of shaft lean, use the very narrow bounce surface, and stop the rest of the sole from interacting much (and that's why it's good for firm conditions)? Is my understanding of what the grind does and looks like from the side flawed?

 

Thanks for the education.

JT.jpg

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TW.JPG

Art.png

Edited by paulman21
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1 hour ago, paulman21 said:

I'm looking at grinding some wedges myself (something similar to the pics below) and am a little thrown by what I've read on leading edge grinds/relief. I'm hoping for some help/explanation from people that have either done these grinds before or used similar wedges.

 

I've read that leading edge relief reduces effective bounce. This makes some sense to me as it narrows the sole a bit...but it also adds bounce at the leading edge.

 

I've also read this relief is good for firm conditions, let's you get the leading edge down under the ball easier (Tiger says this), and gets the leading edge to sit closer to the ground. This is where most of my confusion is. Doesn't this grind essentially add bounce at, and raise, the leading edge? So wouldn't that make it harder to get the LE under the ball and also be worse for firm/tight conditions? So if I soled the pictured wedges with the shaft vertical, the center bounce surface would be the primary point of contact with the ground, and the leading edge would sit higher (like what I've drawn) than if the leading edge relief wasn't there. I could see this being useful, if you like to use shaft lean, to keep the leading edge out of the dirt longer but it also seems like you run the risk of having the leading edge too high with a neutral/vertical shaft delivery...especially on firm/tight ground. 

 

So what am I missing and/or not understanding? Is the purpose of the LE relief to allow the use of shaft lean, use the very narrow bounce surface, and stop the rest of the sole from interacting much (and that's why it's good for firm conditions)? Is my understanding of what the grind does and looks like from the side flawed?

 

Thanks for the education.

 

 

 

Art.png

Having a blunt leading edge is a form of forgiveness. It prevents the leading edge from digging into the ground, by users that tend to dig. 

 

The leading edge of my 620 MB irons has been shaved to get the leading edge closer to the ground.  I don't dig, but sweep/scrape to turf roots.  Shaving the leading edge brings the edge closer to the ground.  Also, it makes the sole of the club a bit wider, removing some camber forgiveness while widening the sole, but lessening bounce.  Least that's how I understand it.

Edited by Pepperturbo
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1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

Having a blunt leading edge is a form of forgiveness. It prevents the leading edge from digging into the ground, by users that tend to dig. 

 

The leading edge of my 620 MB irons has been shaved to get the leading edge closer to the ground.  I don't dig, but sweep/scrape to turf roots.  Shaving the leading edge brings the edge closer to the ground.  Also, it makes the sole of the club a bit wider, removing some camber forgiveness while widening the sole, but lessening bounce.  Least that's how I understand it.

Hm. So maybe this is a story that can't be told through pics only. There seems to be two ways to produce that leading edge bounce section on the sole and they serve different purposes. As you said, blunting or rolling the leading edge (what Vokey shows on their hand ground section webpage) will reduce digging and produce that flat spot. But I've also seen Howard Jones post about grinding that flat spot straight on the sole (like in his video below) to straighten out the leading edge (as viewed from address). 

 

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1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

Having a blunt leading edge is a form of forgiveness. It prevents the leading edge from digging into the ground, by users that tend to dig. 

 

The leading edge of my 620 MB irons has been shaved to get the leading edge closer to the ground.  I don't dig, but sweep/scrape to turf roots.  Shaving the leading edge brings the edge closer to the ground.  Also, it makes the sole of the club a bit wider, removing some camber forgiveness while widening the sole, but lessening bounce.  Least that's how I understand it.

I'm on board with shaving the leading edge makes the first contact point on the sole wider and removes some of the toe->heel camber. Maybe that reduction in camber is the key for the firm lies. I'm still not sure I understand how you can get the leading edge closer to the ground by doing anything except removing bounce or leading->trailing edge camber. More crude art below. Any way that red line tilts (your grind angle), you're going to raise the leading edge higher, right?

art2.png

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3 minutes ago, paulman21 said:

I'm on board with shaving the leading edge makes the first contact point on the sole wider and removes some of the toe->heel camber. Maybe that reduction in camber is the key for the firm lies. I'm still not sure I understand how you can get the leading edge closer to the ground by doing anything except removing bounce or leading->trailing edge camber. More crude art below. Any way that red line tilts (your grind angle), you're going to raise the leading edge higher, right?

art2.png

I am old school. Learned with LW & SW that had 2' of progressive bounce, flat soles and lots of heal relief.  The irons and wedge of my T100s are actually narrower than my 620 MB PW, which surprised me.  I don't need to shave them. 

 

There are no rules regarding adjusting/shaving a club head to reach a desired grind.  For me, just has to be right, so my hands are in the proper position, while the sole is near flat and leading edge should be similar to the image, not the line angle.  Though I say "sharp leading edge" its not meant literally.  Not sure how else to explain it.

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Think of it this way... your picture just above is either (a) the club at rest or (b) the club bottomed out which is hopefully after impact.  

 

Tilt the picture (clubface) to the target a bit to simulate impact position and the leading edge is at the ground.  If your drawing was a still shot of the swing, you can see the bounce is now taking affect and keeping the club from digging.  Therein lies the benefit.

 

Hope that made sense.

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@paulman21

 

Interestingly I just did this to an old wedge.  The bounce angle on the skid plate is about 40 degrees.  It's very good for tight bermuda.

Take a look at the new Callaway Jaws Raw grinds.  They have this on almost every grind.  But especially the X and Z. 

 

I don't think it raises the leading edge enough to be a drawback but obviously that is in the eye of the beholder.  I like my hands ahead of impact even around the green so it's good for me.  Tiger seems to be on my side about this kind of leading edge, so I've got that going for me.  Which is nice.

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3 hours ago, voodoo13 said:

Think of it this way... your picture just above is either (a) the club at rest or (b) the club bottomed out which is hopefully after impact.  

 

Tilt the picture (clubface) to the target a bit to simulate impact position and the leading edge is at the ground.  If your drawing was a still shot of the swing, you can see the bounce is now taking affect and keeping the club from digging.  Therein lies the benefit.

 

Hope that made sense.

Thanks for the reply. I do understand that the extra relief stops the club from digging. Yeah that pic was just a basic address pic. So if we grind the sole/leading edge along that red line, the leading edge raises. That seems counter to "gets the leading edge lower". It allows you to lean the shaft more without digging (like you said). But that seems to also be counter to the "better for firm conditions" where usually you want less bounce, sharper edges, more digging to actually get into the turf. So maybe I'm taking the descriptions I've read a little too literally and should read them as 'I can lower the leading edge more with shaft lean and it won't dig on me.' Is that more in the ballpark?

Edited by paulman21
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13 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

@paulman21

 

Interestingly I just did this to an old wedge.  The bounce angle on the skid plate is about 40 degrees.  It's very good for tight bermuda.

Take a look at the new Callaway Jaws Raw grinds.  They have this on almost every grind.  But especially the X and Z. 

 

I don't think it raises the leading edge enough to be a drawback but obviously that is in the eye of the beholder.  I like my hands ahead of impact even around the green so it's good for me.  Tiger seems to be on my side about this kind of leading edge, so I've got that going for me.  Which is nice.

Thanks for the reply and pic. So you don't notice the additional relief/bounce causing you to catch the ball a little too thin? Do you have any comparisons on what the wedge felt/performed like before and after the grind? Does maybe that relief keep the leading edge out of the sticky bermuda and that's why it works so well?

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Just now, paulman21 said:

Thanks for the reply and pic. So you don't notice the additional relief/bounce causing you to catch the ball a little too thin? Do you have any comparisons on what the wedge felt/performed like before and after the grind? Does maybe that relief keep the leading edge out of the sticky bermuda and that's why it works so well?


Lotta questions, haha.

Basically it keeps the leading edge off the ground without the need for a lot of bounce.

Before: more prone to grabbing on chips.

After: less prone.

 

Fuller swings, I see no real negatives.  If you want your leading edge to cut, or ride the ground, this is not for you.  If like me you find the leading edge to be nothing but trouble, this is a great thing.

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13 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:


Lotta questions, haha.

Basically it keeps the leading edge off the ground without the need for a lot of bounce.

Before: more prone to grabbing on chips.

After: less prone.

 

Fuller swings, I see no real negatives.  If you want your leading edge to cut, or ride the ground, this is not for you.  If like me you find the leading edge to be nothing but trouble, this is a great thing.

Yeah...sorry haha. I want to learn about what these grinds will do so I can grind with a purpose as opposed to "let's see what happens if I do *this*". Thanks for answering all my questions!

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Basically the lead edge relief in what you are describing “reduces” the amount of initial digging but does not prevent digging.  We are talking small angles here and I have ground my irons and wedges many times to square the edges and add relief.  About it causing thin shots. Big no. Look at a golf ball. It’s round. Now look at a golf ball with the wedge next to it. See how much curved area of the golf ball is above the leading edge. You have a ton of room to make fairly clean contact before we tread into the thin shot area. The lead edge is well below the equator and a few to 20 degrees of lead edge relief doesn’t change that at all. You’re just raising the leading edge slightly compared to the lowest point. It allows for much more aggressive interaction with the turf. A few grinds I’ve done below

D102285F-E3C1-4F28-917C-8999EFC91528.jpeg

0FF1CBDC-3219-47B0-A8BA-231FB6C8EA3E.jpeg

ED549D41-7B70-4614-9F8C-0B4EF8DD9B38.jpeg

Edited by mogc60
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