What is the purpose of low-lofted hybrids?

[dsmil]

I’m having a hard time figuring out the purpose of low-lofted hybrids vs. shortened fairway woods. I got thinking about this after hearing a discussion about the different in forgiveness between hybrids and woods.

 

Here are the facts as I see them:

 

1) Fairway wood heads are more forgiving (higher MOI)

 

2) Fairway woods have higher launch/spin given equivalent loft (cg location)

 

I see the following arguments that people can make for hybrids, and some responses to that:

 

1) I hit the sweet spot more with hybrids - This is just a function of club length. Fairway woods can be shortened, with weight added to the head for swingweight purposes

 

2) I like the lower launch/spin of a hybrid - That is true given the same loft, but you could just use a lower lofted fairway wood

 

What am I missing here? Couldn’t OEM’s just offer different length/weight fairway woods and forget about hybrids completely?

Edited January 25, 2023 by dsmil

[Yacho]

Eagerly awaiting responses from the seasoned experts on this one.  All I can see is some possible lie angle issues to address as you go shorter.

 

I've got a friend who sawed-off his 5W to 40" as an experiment and he absolutely loves it.  That shaft broke due to his son shanking one off the hosel, and he promptly replaced it with another shorty.  He seems to not be able to hit it anywhere but straight down the middle with a 215yd carry.

[naj959]

In short no. Mark Crossfield just did a video on this coincidentally. A player that launches it too high is going to struggle with woods based on the shape and cg location. I've tried a 5 wood in the past and it goes straight up in the air. Really a one trick pony that isn't all that useful for the conditions I play in. Simply going down in loft is going to make it play more like a 3 wood and having two of those would be redundant. A hybrid is going to fly lower due to the cg being closer to the face and allow me to hit my trajectory window and distance gap. Even a Utility iron would work better in my case. Lastly some players are better with irons then woods so hybrids can bridge that gap. It's very much player dependent on how they deliver the club. 

[dsmil]

5 minutes ago, naj959 said:

In short no. Mark Crossfield just did a video on this coincidentally. A player that launches it too high is going to struggle with woods based on the shape and cg location. I've tried a 5 wood in the past and it goes straight up in the air. Really a one trick pony that isn't all that useful for the conditions I play in. Simply going down in loft is going to make it play more like a 3 wood and having two of those would be redundant. A hybrid is going to fly lower due to the cg being closer to the face and allow me to hit my trajectory window and distance gap. Even a Utility iron would work better in my case. Lastly some players are better with irons then woods so hybrids can bridge that gap. It's very much player dependent on how they deliver the club. 

I definitely understand the advantage of the utility iron, if you have the speed for it. Less horizontal dispersion because of the flat face. The hybrid has a lot of gear effect so while it’s good at preserving ball speed vs a utility iron, the horizontal dispersion can be large.

 

Regarding the flight windows, let’s say we have a normal length 15 degree 3 wood and then need another club. I’m thinking that a shortened 4 wood at 16.5 degrees would fly the same as an 18 degree hybrid, but would have more forgiveness. This requires a lot on the OEM’s part but it doesn’t seem as daunting if hybrids weren’t a thing.

[dsmil]

16 minutes ago, Yacho said:

Eagerly awaiting responses from the seasoned experts on this one.  All I can see is some possible lie angle issues to address as you go shorter.

 

I've got a friend who sawed-off his 5W to 40" as an experiment and he absolutely loves it.  That shaft broke due to his son shanking one off the hosel, and he promptly replaced it with another shorty.  He seems to not be able to hit it anywhere but straight down the middle with a 215yd carry.

I’m going in this direction as well. I plan on having a 20 degree driving iron and 17.5 degree 5 wood, shortened by 1-1.5 inches. Driving iron on dry days and the 5 wood when it’s wet out. These are basically tee shot clubs for me on my tight course with only 1 par 5.

[njmack]

 

[Ironzol24]

I play a 16.5 wood and then 20 degree hybrid and 23 degree hybrid; In my personal experience I have found that having a smaller head-sized hybrid suits my eye and my swing a bit better than woods of similar loft. I love my 4 wood but am a huge fan of how my hybrids fit my eye AND they do what I want in terms of distance / spin / land angle etc. 

[naj959]

1 hour ago, dsmil said:

I definitely understand the advantage of the utility iron, if you have the speed for it. Less horizontal dispersion because of the flat face. The hybrid has a lot of gear effect so while it’s good at preserving ball speed vs a utility iron, the horizontal dispersion can be large.

 

Regarding the flight windows, let’s say we have a normal length 15 degree 3 wood and then need another club. I’m thinking that a shortened 4 wood at 16.5 degrees would fly the same as an 18 degree hybrid, but would have more forgiveness. This requires a lot on the OEM’s part but it doesn’t seem as daunting if hybrids weren’t a thing.

At 16.5* I would think the smash factor would still make the wood come out a little hotter even at the shortened length.  A skilled fitter could dial it in. But the average off the rack guy is probably better off going with something engineers have designed for a certain slot in the bag. 

I'd also add that a well fit hybrid can have a very tight dispersion. Some of the ladies on the LPGA are incredibly precise with theirs. Wouldn't a wood have even more gear effect since the faces typically have more bulge and roll? I prefer iron like deeper-faced hybrids like the TSi3. The current trend seems to be manufacturers making a more wood-like hybrid for higher handicaps who sweep the ball as well as a more iron-like hybrid for better players that have a more descending blow. 

The wood style is just not consistent for me. 

 

At the end of the day, play whatever helps you score well. But hybrids do fit certain styles of players better. 

[llewol007]

Low lofted hybrids really target the player who cannot hit a fairway wood. I know this from experience as I was more of a digger with most of my clubs that I did not have the sweeping swing needed to hit my fairway woods effectively. Hybrids you hit similar to an iron with more downward contact. The players who cant effectively hit their longer irons switch over to hybrids because the fatter base gives them more lee way for contact. Just another approach I guess. I had it as low as 17.5 with my older sldr hybrids which were great. Over time and with practice, I came back to sweeping the ball and now have a 3 and 5 wood setup and ditched the hybrids. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by llewol007

[OnTheBag]

As an old guy that has a lot of both in my bag, I will try to answer the OP's question.

 

For me it is about shot shape and options.  FWs launch in a different window than hybrids of identical loft.  Hybrids traditionally have shorter shafts and are easier for me to control.  In my normal setup, I use a 16.5° 4W, then move to a 22° 4h.  There is a gap between them, but I'm not playing the long game, so I don't care.  If I have all 14 clubs (rare) I will throw a 20° 7w along with hybrids down through 30°, then move to a traditional 7i (35°).  Playing hybrids for so long, I've found that I can be more creative with them than FWs.  I can hit punch shots, open the face, close the face to hit low runners, etc...

 

Hope this helps.

[Klubster]

When hybrids became "the thing", I built a 19 degree hybrid and for a season and a half, never hit a bad shot with it.  Then it turned into a duck hook machine.  Replaced it with a 21 degree 7 wood.  Same carry, but higher launch and better stop on the greens and I do not hook it.  It all comes down to what you can hit the best.

[mogc60]

I’ve carried a 17* hybrid for many years. I’m a fairly high ball hitter and I find it easy to hit a low bullet off the tee with it or higher shots into greens. It’s definitely a comfort thing for me. I struggle hitting higher lofted fairway woods on a controlled flight. The hybrid is my 235-240 club and I’m very comfortable with the many shots I can hit with it. It’s all preferences and using what fits us best

[vandyfan]

I have tried a 3W, 4W, 5W and a shortened 5W and I can't hit them off the deck consistently. Like not at all. I definitely am not a great player so a lot of that is my fault. My 18* 3Hy is soooooo much easier to hit off the deck. Probably a combination of the shorter shaft but also the face is taller and has a boxy toe which is confidence inspiring. As far as flight characteristics go, the woods do spin more which is helpful to holding greens but that is trumped by the fact that I cannot hit the darn things. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by vandyfan

[SVTM5]

I utilize a callaway uw 17. Absolute rocket. Built not to hit hooks. I use it off the tee in tight holes and mainly to attack par 5. Fairway woods especially 3 woods are the hardest clubs to fit and mainly a personal preference. 

 

 

 

 

[Cwebb]

They're generally easier to hit than a 2 iron and don't flight as high as a fairway wood.  This is what some players want

[dsmil]

23 minutes ago, SVTM5 said:

I utilize a callaway uw 17. Absolute rocket. Built not to hit hooks. I use it off the tee in tight holes and mainly to attack par 5. Fairway woods especially 3 woods are the hardest clubs to fit and mainly a personal preference. 

 

 

 

 

I hope more companies start making clubs like this. Forgiving and shorter length than a wood.

[Yacho]

I don't think this was meant to be a "hybrid vs. FW" discussion...

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think within the essence of OP's original question was, "why not use a FW built to the same length as a low lofted hybrid if it has inherently better forgiveness and higher launch characteristics?"  The assumption is that hybrids are generally easier to hit due to the shorter club length, so OP is trying to take that out of the equation. 

 

My take, after re-watching the TXG vid, is that if you're playing in windy conditions hybrid is the answer, as a FW head is more likely to increase delivered loft and balloon on you (into the wind, of course).

[Rosco1216]

More versatility as a fairway would replacement. 

[Yacho]

1 hour ago, Ironzol24 said:

I have found that having a smaller head-sized hybrid suits my eye and my swing a bit better than woods of similar loft.

 

Certainly not to be overlooked.  If it looks wrong, it's gonna feel wrong.  That's probably why I can never find the middle of a Taylormade driver. 

[dsmil]

28 minutes ago, Yacho said:

I don't think this was meant to be a "hybrid vs. FW" discussion...

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think within the essence of OP's original question was, "why not use a FW built to the same length as a low lofted hybrid if it has inherently better forgiveness and higher launch characteristics?"  The assumption is that hybrids are generally easier to hit due to the shorter club length, so OP is trying to take that out of the equation. 

 

My take, after re-watching the TXG vid, is that if you're playing in windy conditions hybrid is the answer, as a FW head is more likely to increase delivered loft and balloon on you (into the wind, of course).

Yes, was pretty much my thinking although I’m trying to take the higher launch out of the equation too, thinking that can be changed with loft. So basically, why not use a more forgiving head if launch conditions will be the same?

[Yacho]

6 minutes ago, dsmil said:

Yes, was pretty much my thinking although I’m trying to take the higher launch out of the equation too, thinking that can be changed with loft. So basically, why not use a more forgiving head if launch conditions will be the same?

 

This is starting to feel like a "blades vs. rear-weighted cavity backs" thing in reverse, with the hybrid being the "blade", and the FW being the CB. 

[rt_charger]

One of the simplest reasons for using a 16-18° hybrid vs a 4-5 wood is the thinner sole will help with excessively shallow AoA issues, and help not drop kick into the ball for someone who might flip or sweep too much

Edited January 26, 2023 by rt_charger

[ac6]

1 hour ago, dsmil said:

Yes, was pretty much my thinking although I’m trying to take the higher launch out of the equation too, thinking that can be changed with loft. So basically, why not use a more forgiving head if launch conditions will be the same?

 

I think a big part of it is the look--many players prefer a more iron-like profile for that slot in their bag, and compared to a wood with the same launch characteristics (short shaft, lower loft), the higher-lofted hybrid will show more of the face at address as well as generally have a sharper/straighter leading edge. Both of those traits help me with confidence when hitting off the turf and out of more marginal lies

 

FWIW, with modern hybrids smash factor and ball speed isn't much different from a FW in my experience. For a DI, maybe that's a problem. But I get 1.48+ smash on a good strike with my Apex Pro 21 hybrid

Edited January 26, 2023 by ac6

[shaolingolfer]

Hybrid and Wood are 2 different club even they are same loft and length, the shape, size and CG location are totally different.  In my opinion, they are not the same and cannot say one is better than the other.

[dsmil]

3 hours ago, naj959 said:

At 16.5* I would think the smash factor would still make the wood come out a little hotter even at the shortened length.  A skilled fitter could dial it in. But the average off the rack guy is probably better off going with something engineers have designed for a certain slot in the bag. 

I'd also add that a well fit hybrid can have a very tight dispersion. Some of the ladies on the LPGA are incredibly precise with theirs. Wouldn't a wood have even more gear effect since the faces typically have more bulge and roll? I prefer iron like deeper-faced hybrids like the TSi3. The current trend seems to be manufacturers making a more wood-like hybrid for higher handicaps who sweep the ball as well as a more iron-like hybrid for better players that have a more descending blow. 

The wood style is just not consistent for me. 

 

At the end of the day, play whatever helps you score well. But hybrids do fit certain styles of players better. 

The gear effect thing is interesting. I always figured that for horizontal dispersion, irons were the best, followed by hybrids, followed by woods. Woody Lashen from Pete’s Golf was interviewed on the Sweet Spot podcast and said that he hated low lofted hybrids. His reasoning was that because CG is closer to the face and MOI is so much lower, gear effect is more pronounced with the hybrid and they go offline more. So even if there is a difference in bulge and roll (I have no idea if there is or not) the hybrid is much less stable and therefore gear effect is harsh. So he would say that the driving iron is still the best for horizontal dispersion but it’s followed by the fairway woods.

[@_the_crook]

at times I wish my Cally Fusion 1H was still here.

my dumb&ss traded it for something a long time ago.

woods are not for everyone.

just saying.

[Flip4000]

I like a low lofted hybrid because I have a much easier time digging the ball out of the rough with one than I do with the equivalent lofted wood. For the long iron it’s replacing that’s where I need help.
 

It’s tough for me to get a long iron out of long rough and up into the air and with a wood I have a tough time getting down to the ball. That’s where the low lofted hybrid works for me as it gets down to the ball  and gets it out but also gets the ball up.

Not scientific but it works for me 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Flip4000

[dsmil]

I'm enjoying all of the responses here.  My takeaway here is that some people prefer the turf interaction or look of a hybrid more, and that's a valid point.  Pretty similar to the blade vs. cb argument as mentioned above.  Also, the better the golfer, the less need there is for increased MOI since you're striking it towards the middle of the face more.  I do see a lot of responses regarding flight windows, but I still think that you could play with shaft length and loft to replicate whatever flight window a hybrid is producing.  I hit these clubs almost exclusively off the tee, and I'm hoping that my incoming G425 5 wood (played likely around 41-41.5 inches) gives me a bit of a forgiveness boost vs. using a hybrid.