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Colorado river basin water restrictions coming soon: where do you see desert golf in 20 years?


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Given that the historical flow of the Colorado was thought to be 17.5M acre-feet per year when water rights were divvied up in the Southwest, but flow has now dropped to 10M acre-feet per year, what do you see as the future of golf in the desert? Unless something drastically changes, some tough choices are going to be made as to whether water goes to agriculture, golf, or people, given the state of current negotiations. I haven't seen the numbers specifically, but it is a good bet that people don't use that much water, especially those without lawns. But agriculture and golf courses certainly do, and agriculture is a powerful lobby. I bet ag uses 10X the water (at least) of golf, but people need to eat and like fresh veggies. Golf doesn't have the same type of broad-based support from the public. 

 

This obviously assumes that water is still able to be delivered via current methods, and that Las Vegas doesn't run dry due to lack of access to Lake Mead. 

 

With the assumption that there isn't enough water to go around, how do you think that allocations will shake out? Currently, water is likely too cheap and we are basically subsidizing food growers, but the same could be said for golf courses. There should be enough water for people, even with the reduced flows, so it seems like the coming conflicts will involve the commercial use of the remaining water. 

 

What are your thoughts? Attached is a visual from the NYT article on flows today. You can see the writing on the wall (and for those of us who spend a lot of time in the mountains, the seasonal snowfall changes have been drastic during the last 30 years, so this is really not news). 

 

 

Screenshot 2023-01-27 083345.jpg

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I would guess that a lot of courses will probably close. Others will adapt.

 

It's pretty amazing the things they can do with turf these days.

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They've been giving too much water to agriculture for a long time. Believe in California ag uses something like 80% (don't quote me on this) of total water, yet they cut it to peoples homes first. Future of ag might be growing less water intensive crops.

 

For golf can see them adapting. Perhaps things like tee boxes and greens (fairways are a little harder due to use of irons on them) could be turf? Wouldn't be my preference obviously, but if it's between that and no golf....

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I could be wrong but a lot of the courses in the desert are on reservations and they have plenty of water rights.  Whether or not that is a responsible use of that water is for them to decide.  I've also been told a lot of the water in the Phoenix area comes from an aquifer that still has readily available water.  Once again I could be totally wrong on this.

 

I think you'll see courses stop irrigating anything other than playing corridors and let the rest go.  Also, until communities embrace toilet-to-tap you'll continue to see a lot of reclaimed wastewater used for irrigation.  It will certainly be interesting to follow and I'm sure new, innovative solutions will arise.

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All courses need to water less. Players need to adjust their standards. Start trying to be like St. Andrews and less like Augusta National. 
 

Lack of water is a bigger issues than most realize. It’s not just AZ, CA, and NV, but CO, UT, WY and NM. It’s going to be an ugly and long process of states, cities and towns suing each other over water rights. States need to ban watering residential lawns. I have family that lives in PHX and they’re required to overseed yearly. It’s insane. I expect the federal government to get involved soon with drawing up new water use laws and regulations. So far states have failed to work together and do it in their own. 
 

Scottsdale just cut off water to some 500+ homes and a judge ruled they are within their rights to do so. It’s going to get ugly. https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/scottsdale-wont-have-to-share-water-with-rio-verde-residents-judge-rules.amp

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Oddly enough my wife and I have been talking about just this.

 

I think the desert courses are going to begin to have water rather than desert along the fairways.  I always think of Paiute, they keep those ponds as a water source, and a hazard.  I also think there will be a push for more grass hybrids which are less thirsty by agronomists, rather than playability and growth rate.  And, the price of golf is going to go way up, which will result in closures of the mid/lower tier courses and make golf a much different proposition for the snowbirds.

 

In the end, water rates won't increase too much for agriculture, but I don't think golf will be included as an agricultural endeavor.  If the water boards were to increase ag water rates or lower the water rights allotment there would be a revolt.  CA is top 4 largest economies in the world (not state, larger than Germany) and it is based on agriculture.  While we blast CA, if the government hampers their economy we are all in a world of hurt.  So expect preferential ag treatment, and they will continue to get the bulk of the water, and the folks who live in the desert will be drinking and bathing in reclaimed water just as today that water is used for golf course irrigation.

 

Water will be the next oil in regards to global politics.

 

All in my humble opinion, but it just feels like this going to happen.

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This golf and water topic was discussed detail about 10 years ago. Golf courses in Arizona high desert got frequent coverage. As others have mentioned, turf grass that requires less water was popular.

 

General design trend in Arizona: Have mowed turf for tee boxes, landing areas and approach areas around the green. The rest: have sand waste areas or, if it grew naturally, semi-tended turf areas. Different course profiles often listed the square-footage of tended turf the course had.

 

image.png.4f156827b49048690fe0b2868d2d5c0a.png

And some courses had shared tee boxes on adjacent holes to gain efficiencies on irrigation and maintenance.

 

image.png.f2106636579ba9f6a0bd8dd7fb694b6b.png

 

If interested, tap into the online links for Golf Course Architecture magazine and the Golf Course Superintendents Assoc. of America. Water, irrigation and drainage are frequent topics for both groups.

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1 hour ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Hopefully it stops. Humans wasting water to grow things where they shouldn't be grown is a losing endeavor. 

That is the inherent rub. Where do you grow things instead? Where else is there plentiful/cheap uninhabited land and plentiful year round sun. Everywhere else you have seasonal extremes that impact production, but our food needs are not at all seasonal. 

 

Some golfers are happy with an on/off season, but food production is a bit different

 

 

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1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

That is the inherent rub. Where do you grow things instead? Where else is there plentiful/cheap uninhabited land and plentiful year round sun. Everywhere else you have seasonal extremes that impact production, but our food needs are not at all seasonal. 

 

Some golfers are happy with an on/off season, but food production is a bit different

 

 

Well, we're talking about a recreational activity and not food producing farms. That would be a separate conversation.

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As someone else said, the majority of those courses likely own senior water rights and will be far down the list for cuts. The most likely outcome is they will use treated effluent water if in a fairly large residential area. The two very good municipal courses in my town in CO already switched to using treated city water years ago.

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On 1/27/2023 at 9:57 AM, Albatross Dreamer said:

They've been giving too much water to agriculture for a long time. Believe in California ag uses something like 80% (don't quote me on this) of total water, yet they cut it to peoples homes first. Future of ag might be growing less water intensive crops.

 

For golf can see them adapting. Perhaps things like tee boxes and greens (fairways are a little harder due to use of irons on them) could be turf? Wouldn't be my preference obviously, but if it's between that and no golf....

 

I think that has to be a piece of the puzzle. 

 

Apparently it takes something like 50 gallons of fresh water to produce 1 gallon of almond milk. That doesn't seem sustainable in any sense of the word. 

 

With respect to properties possessing water rights, I'd say that rights are only relevant to the extent that water is available at all. The outlook for Lake Mead and the reservoirs downstream of it is pretty dire. 

 

 

Edited by me05501
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On 1/27/2023 at 2:40 PM, third-times-a-charm said:

Hopefully it stops. Humans wasting water to grow things where they shouldn't be grown is a losing endeavor. 

 

And oddly enough, inviting millions of people to inhabit a desert region where water isn't plentiful is NOT a losing endeavor? There is a ton of water that is siphoned off to far away places due to populations that can't be sustained with the local water table. Seems a bit odd that we would prioritize a hobby/pastime above agriculture, but I guess that's just me. 

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Have a friend who has lived in AZ for 40 years. He says AG's does little to minimize usage, in fact it's the opposite. They gush water on desert to feed crops but much of it is wasted. They have 1st rights, and don't want to spend to irrigate in a more highly productive manner.

 

On the other end of it CA has had drought issues forever. They have an ocean, they are called desalination plants. They work but that rubs wrong with too many.

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1 hour ago, me05501 said:

 

I think that has to be a piece of the puzzle. 

 

Apparently it takes something like 50 gallons of fresh water to produce 1 gallon of almond milk. That doesn't seem sustainable in any sense of the word. 

 

With respect to properties possessing water rights, I'd say that rights are only relevant to the extent that water is available at all. The outlook for Lake Mead and the reservoirs downstream of it is pretty dire. 

 

 

Spot on. People don't realize how much water most nuts and avocados take, amongst other things. Not to mention how inefficient water usage is for many ag producers on top of that as another poster stated. 

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17 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Have a friend who has lived in AZ for 40 years. He says AG's does little to minimize usage, in fact it's the opposite. They gush water on desert to feed crops but much of it is wasted. They have 1st rights, and don't want to spend to irrigate in a more highly productive manner.

 

On the other end of it CA has had drought issues forever. They have an ocean, they are called desalination plants. They work but that rubs wrong with too many.

 

Right. I think as we reach the tipping point on natural resources we'll finally come to realize that relying on purely capitalist incentives was a big mistake. 

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17 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

Right. I think as we reach the tipping point on natural resources we'll finally come to realize that relying on purely capitalist incentives was a big mistake. 

Water rights is more contract law, isn't it?. These rights were drawn up over 100 years ago. It was desert before man, will be after man. The planet has lots of water, we're just lazy about harvesting and managing it. Easier to declare scarcity than to develop abundance. Entire S West relies on one river, which is NUTS, and they have had decades, to develop work around. Who's the bad guy? Farmers? Or post WWII urban sprawl? You go to Europe, there's a factory cutting metal with oil, making fancy watch parts, right next to a pristine glacier stream, in USA that co-existence could never be done without damage because of our infantile attitude about all this stuff.

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I was reading a newspaper article about water rights and golf courses in PHX. The ending was pretty good and something along the lines of, the question isn’t weather golf courses should have been built in the desert  but should Phoenix have been built? 
 

Obviously that ship has sailed on both accounts. Just a thought provoking question. It’s crazy how fast Phoenix has grown though. 2.9 million in 2000 and 4.7 now. 
 

Water desalination plants will most likely become the norm. From the pacific in California and the Sea of Cortez in AZ. It’s not overly expensive until you realize how massive the scale needs to be each day. It cost fractions of a penny to get a gallon of drinking water. 

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57 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

I was reading a newspaper article about water rights and golf courses in PHX. The ending was pretty good and something along the lines of, the question isn’t weather golf courses should have been built in the desert  but should Phoenix have been built? 
 

Obviously that ship has sailed on both accounts. Just a thought provoking question. It’s crazy how fast Phoenix has grown though. 2.9 million in 2000 and 4.7 now. 
 

Water desalination plants will most likely become the norm. From the pacific in California and the Sea of Cortez in AZ. It’s not overly expensive until you realize how massive the scale needs to be each day. It cost fractions of a penny to get a gallon of drinking water. 

 

I hope the desalinization tech becomes widespread and affordable ASAP. 

 

There are lots of U.S. and global cities that can be criticized for being in the "wrong place." After Katrina there were some talking heads who said New Orleans shouldn't be rebuilt because it wasn't sustainable to have a large city built at or even just below sea level. That ignores the fact that a tremendous amount of cargo is processed through the Port of New Orleans which is the gateway between the Mississippi River and the rest of the world. If there's no New Orleans there's no Memphis, no St. Louis, maybe no Minneapolis. 

 

I guess Las Vegas might be the ultimate example of a city built in the wrong place, and the arguments for sustaining it would seem to be purely financial, but that's a very rare example. Most of the time when a city has 1 million residents there's a good reason for it to exist. 

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Unless the water trends reverse, there won't be a happy ending for desert golf courses. I love golf, but water is a necessity and if it is scarce we can't use it on golf courses. If we hit a point where we need a legislative action saying that no one can use water to water a non-agricultural crop, it won't matter who owns the rights and I really doubt the public would be up for a golf course exception.

 

The best thing we can do now is for people in those areas to conserve as much as possible to prolong any issues and for the scientific and engineering communities to work on innovative ways to create and / or move water. 

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6 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Water rights is more contract law, isn't it?. These rights were drawn up over 100 years ago. It was desert before man, will be after man. The planet has lots of water, we're just lazy about harvesting and managing it. Easier to declare scarcity than to develop abundance. Entire S West relies on one river, which is NUTS, and they have had decades, to develop work around. Who's the bad guy? Farmers? Or post WWII urban sprawl? You go to Europe, there's a factory cutting metal with oil, making fancy watch parts, right next to a pristine glacier stream, in USA that co-existence could never be done without damage because of our infantile attitude about all this stuff.

Water rights are, at least to my knowledge, state regulated unless the water source crosses state lines and then each state is the individual and the federal government is the arbiter.

 

We have surface water rights which were purchased from the state.  For large bodies of water seniority is king in our state.  If the river began to dry up, my water rights at 20 y/o would be relinquished prior to the rancher above me who has had them for 22 years.  At least this is how it was presented to me.

 

I don’t use mine, but bought them so someone else wouldn’t buy and use the water.

 

I am not an attorney and didn’t do a ton of investigation about the specifics, but it was explained like this when I got mine.

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6 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

Water rights are, at least to my knowledge, state regulated unless the water source crosses state lines and then each state is the individual and the federal government is the arbiter.

 

We have surface water rights which were purchased from the state.  For large bodies of water seniority is king in our state.  If the river began to dry up, my water rights at 20 y/o would be relinquished prior to the rancher above me who has had them for 22 years.  At least this is how it was presented to me.

 

I don’t use mine, but bought them so someone else wouldn’t buy and use the water.

 

I am not an attorney and didn’t do a ton of investigation about the specifics, but it was explained like this when I got mine.

Interesting, don't know a lot about particulars. Knew that Lake Meade peaked many many years ago and the flow of urban migration was just beginning.

 

My Brother-In Law's estranged dad was in a bar out in Utah. Met an old guy who said he found water with one of those wish boned coat hanger things. Asked him to take him out to land. Guy did. Dad bought it. He went from penniless to being a multi-millionaire. He passed some years ago, left zilch to family back East, gave it new wife & family. Water rights is no joke out there.

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16 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Interesting, don't know a lot about particulars. Knew that Lake Meade peaked many many years ago and the flow of urban migration was just beginning.

 

My Brother-In Law's estranged dad was in a bar out in Utah. Met an old guy who said he found water with one of those wish boned coat hanger things. Asked him to take him out to land. Guy did. Dad bought it. He went from penniless to being a multi-millionaire. He passed some years ago, left zilch to family back East, gave it new wife & family. Water rights is no joke out there.

As I said, I am no attorney concerning this.  When we bought our place there were surface water rights with it for $250 and they asked if I wanted them.  I said sure and asked why would I want them which is what I am remembering here.

 

When we bought the property I do not remember purchasing aquifer rights.  I am not in the desert and we couldn’t sell it anyway bc we only have a residence license which is a finite number.  We just dug a well and that was it.  I imagine if you have a huge property and don’t use the water I absolutely see how it could be tapped and sold.

 

EDIT:  I did not remember correctly, but AZ did lose 20% of its water.

 

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-environment/2022/08/16/federal-officials-impose-cuts-colorado-river/10311378002/

Edited by Petethreeput
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There is a ton going on behind the scenes involving this. For example there is one course who has had excellent results using drip irrigation on tee boxes but it has not panned out when they tried it on greens. I should also add that it is currently not feasible on greens due to the cutting of cups.
 

As for the comment above about St Andrews be Augusta. It’s not as simple as more or less water. Fescue vs Bent/Bermuda is not really even a conversation. Bermuda/Bent when exposed to high volumes of salinated water will cause die back. Fescue thrives in a salt water rich environment. Being near the ocean, fescue takes in a lot of the moisture in the air which contains salt. Hence part of the reason for the browning is the lack of over head water necessary.

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    • 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am - Discussion and Links to Photos
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      General Albums
       
      2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am - Tuesday #1
       
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nick Hardy - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Seamus Power - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Hadwin - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Kurt Kitayama - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Byeong Hun An - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nicolai Hojgaard - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Sam Burns - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Brandon Wu - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JT Poston - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nick Dunlap - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Alex Smalley - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pau Gasol WITB (2x NBA Champion, 6x All-Star) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Josh Allen WITB (NFL Quarterback, Buffalo Bills) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Matt Kuchar - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JJ Spaun - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Svensson - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Scott (mini) - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Taylor Moore - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      TaylorMade putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pebble Beach Golf Links (holes 7 & 8) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Odyssey putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Lucas Glover going to test black Srixon ZX5 & ZX7 irons - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Justin Thomas wrist training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Stephen Sweeney's Putting Ballistic putting training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Chris Kirk club changes - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
       
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