New irons - spin problems

[Bye]

Last summer I went for a fitting a subsequently bought a new set of irons and wedges.

 

My previous irons were a set of Titleist CB’s with X100 shafts , I now have some 620 MB’s with Modus 125X.

 

I wanted to change my old set as they launched a bit too high and were a bit low spinning. Like most fittings a 6 iron was used for the fitting vs my old set. 

 

I found a picture I took from the fitting which had my 6 iron swing speed is 91mph, the CB’s had a spin rate of around 5000 rpms (Trackman, from a mat). I did some testing last week as i have been struggling a bit in the wind and with distances. My new clubs spin a lot more, 6 iron is around 6500 (flight scope from a mat) and the shorter irons seem worse. I’ve lost about 10 yards with each club.

 

Loft wise the 620’s are 1 degree weaker, so that will account for some of the distance loss. It was also recommended during the fitting that I changed to a Pro V1X.

 

I am in 2 minds what to do. Option 1 would be to strengthen the lofts by 1 degree and switch to the Pro V1 in the hope that it will add a few yards and knock some spin off. Option 2 would be to have them re shafted with either some X100’s or Project X 6.5’s.

 

Has anyone else been in this position or does anyone have any advice? I am not expecting to get the full 10 yards back, but half way with a bit less spin might solve the issue.

[jvincent]

Is the distance loss what you see on the course or from the LM numnbers?

 

Either way, I'd recommend trying the easy things first. Grab a sleeve of ProV1 (or other less spinny ball) and try those out. 

 

[Bye]

2 minutes ago, jvincent said:

Is the distance loss what you see on the course or from the LM numnbers?

 

Either way, I'd recommend trying the easy things first. Grab a sleeve of ProV1 (or other less spinny ball) and try those out. 

 

Yeah it’s both, the launch monitor really just confirmed things.

 

It’s the most likely option and I will probably try having the lofts adjusted. 

[Pepperturbo]

1 hour ago, Bye said:

Last summer I went for a fitting a subsequently bought a new set of irons and wedges.

 

My previous irons were a set of Titleist CB’s with X100 shafts , I now have some 620 MB’s with Modus 125X.

 

I wanted to change my old set as they launched a bit too high and were a bit low spinning. Like most fittings a 6 iron was used for the fitting vs my old set. 

 

I found a picture I took from the fitting which had my 6 iron swing speed is 91mph, the CB’s had a spin rate of around 5000 rpms (Trackman, from a mat). I did some testing last week as i have been struggling a bit in the wind and with distances. My new clubs spin a lot more, 6 iron is around 6500 (flight scope from a mat) and the shorter irons seem worse. I’ve lost about 10 yards with each club.

 

Loft wise the 620’s are 1 degree weaker, so that will account for some of the distance loss. It was also recommended during the fitting that I changed to a Pro V1X.

 

I am in 2 minds what to do. Option 1 would be to strengthen the lofts by 1 degree and switch to the Pro V1 in the hope that it will add a few yards and knock some spin off. Option 2 would be to have them re shafted with either some X100’s or Project X 6.5’s.

 

Has anyone else been in this position or does anyone have any advice? I am not expecting to get the full 10 yards back, but half way with a bit less spin might solve the issue.

Was a 2, now a 4 index.  I have 3-PW sets of 620 CB and 620 MB, bought new when introduced.  I especially love the MBs.  Played various combinations of each set till recently buying new T100s irons. 

 

It's known in reviews, the 620 MB heads are spinners.  Because I was losing 10-12yds, I had lofts increased 1' then decreased 1', hoping, but nothing happened, so had them bent back to stock.  Played them that way till the new irons showed up.

 

The problem I cope with is I hit the ball, hard, which adds spin to a head that already spin it more than usual.  Didn't have the problem with 620 CBs.  I bought the new irons, hoping to regain the lost 10–12 yards.  It appears my hope has worked, least so far.

 

My other solution; switching from spinner ProV1x to low-spin DASH -ProV1x.  Now, play DASH most of the time, but in cold temps switch to AVX.

 

I played X100, then Rifle 6.5 then PX 6.0 for 15+yrs, before switching to composite.  Of all my shafts, PX has been my fav.  If you got the power to work PX 6.5 consider them.  They are a bit more stout than X100.

Edited January 27 by Pepperturbo

[Bye]

16 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Was a 2, now a 4 index.  I have 3-PW sets of 620 CB and 620 MB, bought new when introduced.  I especially love the MBs.  Played various combinations of each set till recently buying new T100s irons. 

 

It's known in reviews, the 620 MB heads are spinners.  Because I was losing 10-12yds, I had lofts increased 1' then decreased 1', hoping, but nothing happened, so had them bent back to stock.  Played them that way till the new irons showed up.

 

The problem I cope with is I hit the ball, hard, which adds spin to a head that already spin it more than usual.  Didn't have the problem with 620 CBs.  I bought the new irons, hoping to regain the lost 10–12 yards.  It appears my hope has worked, least so far.

 

My other solution; switching from spinner ProV1x to low-spin DASH -ProV1x.  Now, play DASH most of the time, but in cold temps switch to AVX.

 

I played X100, then Rifle 6.5 then PX 6.0 for 15+yrs, before switching to composite.  Of all my shafts, PX has been my fav.  If you got the power to work PX 6.5 consider them.  They are a bit more stout than X100.

Interesting, it is my main worry that they will just remain too high spinning regardless.
 

I tried the PX 6.5’s at the fitting, and was told that I could play them, X100’s or the Modus. I went for the Modus as they felt better amongst other things.

 

 

 

 

[MattM97]

Don't know if a shaft can help that much spin wise honestly, I'd say a new ball could help and definitely look outside the Titleist brand as well if you need to drop those spin numbers to get more control and better ball flight. Then maybe look into bending lofts along with ball testing and could get those numbers you want with not much effort or cost. 

[Bye]

1 minute ago, MattM97 said:

Don't know if a shaft can help that much spin wise honestly, I'd say a new ball could help and definitely look outside the Titleist brand as well if you need to drop those spin numbers to get more control and better ball flight. Then maybe look into bending lofts along with ball testing and could get those numbers you want with not much effort or cost. 

I’m hoping both will do the job, the thought of changing 10 shafts or buying a whole new set is definitely not ideal. 

[Pepperturbo]

7 minutes ago, Bye said:

Interesting, it is my main worry that they will just remain too high spinning regardless.
 

I tried the PX 6.5’s at the fitting, and was told that I could play them, X100’s or the Modus. I went for the Modus as they felt better amongst other things.

 

 

 

 

They are spinners.  From the time I bought them, I hit them hard enough, spin never was an issue and my yardages were fine.  I play in wind a lot, so flight the ball quite a bit.  When I first got 620 MBs had PX 6.0 in them, later Steelfiber but the best composite experience was when I switched to MMT 125s...great shafts and no problems!  The spinning never bothered me, can't say why, until recently when I started losing yardage.  I figure it was age doing its dastardly thing.

 

They are spinners, though.  I know many guys that play blades, but no one other than me that plays them.  Modus is a well-made fine shaft.  Ya might check out Modus Tour 120 TX or X, both are lighter than 125, which might be a benefit.

[Bye]

31 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

They are spinners.  From the time I bought them, I hit them hard enough, spin never was an issue and my yardages were fine.  I play in wind a lot, so flight the ball quite a bit.  When I first got 620 MBs had PX 6.0 in them, later Steelfiber but the best composite experience was when I switched to MMT 125s...great shafts and no problems!  The spinning never bothered me, can't say why, until recently when I started losing yardage.  I figure it was age doing its dastardly thing.

 

They are spinners, though.  I know many guys that play blades, but no one other than me that plays them.  Modus is a well-made fine shaft.  Ya might check out Modus Tour 120 TX or X, both are lighter than 125, which might be a benefit.

Which is what I wanted, but it’s just gone a bit too far the other way. I will do some tinkering and see what happens.

[Cwebb]

You might as well try your "option 1" first, since it's easy enough to change away from if it doesn't provide all of what you're looking for

[jomatty]

Have you tried the. With the pro v1’s yet.  That would certainly be my first experiment.  Then bend them if you don’t get enough distance back.  Chrome soft x ls might also be an option.  Personally I would want to make sure I couldn’t fix the issues with a ball change that I could still live with around the greens before bending or reshafting.

[Bye]

6 hours ago, jomatty said:

Have you tried the. With the pro v1’s yet.  That would certainly be my first experiment.  Then bend them if you don’t get enough distance back.  Chrome soft x ls might also be an option.  Personally I would want to make sure I couldn’t fix the issues with a ball change that I could still live with around the greens before bending or reshafting.

Not yet, I am due to play tomorrow weather permitting, so will give it a try them.

 

I am aware of degree loft change making a 3-4 yard difference in distance. I can’t find any suggestions as to what difference it makes with spin with irons, it seems to be suggested with a driver it’s around 200-300 rpms.

 

 

 

[DrShaftE]

11 hours ago, Bye said:

Last summer I went for a fitting a subsequently bought a new set of irons and wedges.

 

My previous irons were a set of Titleist CB’s with X100 shafts , I now have some 620 MB’s with Modus 125X.

 

I wanted to change my old set as they launched a bit too high and were a bit low spinning. Like most fittings a 6 iron was used for the fitting vs my old set. 

 

I found a picture I took from the fitting which had my 6 iron swing speed is 91mph, the CB’s had a spin rate of around 5000 rpms (Trackman, from a mat). I did some testing last week as i have been struggling a bit in the wind and with distances. My new clubs spin a lot more, 6 iron is around 6500 (flight scope from a mat) and the shorter irons seem worse. I’ve lost about 10 yards with each club.

 

Loft wise the 620’s are 1 degree weaker, so that will account for some of the distance loss. It was also recommended during the fitting that I changed to a Pro V1X.

 

I am in 2 minds what to do. Option 1 would be to strengthen the lofts by 1 degree and switch to the Pro V1 in the hope that it will add a few yards and knock some spin off. Option 2 would be to have them re shafted with either some X100’s or Project X 6.5’s.

 

Has anyone else been in this position or does anyone have any advice? I am not expecting to get the full 10 yards back, but half way with a bit less spin might solve the issue.

I have 620mb`s and 716mb`s. Those distances and spin numbers are identical (with X100 shafts in both sets). 
I would say that 5000 spin with 6 iron is a quite low side when considering cb/mb lofts are traditional lofts. When thinking about stopping power to the greens I would say 6500 is better even thought carry is 10 yards shorter. Or is that distance carry or total? If total it will explained with lower spin and carry numbers might close to each other.

Edited January 28 by DrShaftE

[Bye]

25 minutes ago, DrShaftE said:

I have 620mb`s and 716mb`s. Those distances and spin numbers are identical (with X100 shafts in both sets). 
I would say that 5000 spin with 6 iron is a quite low side when considering cb/mb lofts are traditional lofts. When thinking about stopping power to the greens I would say 6500 is better even thought carry is 10 yards shorter. Or is that distance carry or total? If total it will explained with lower spin and carry numbers might close to each other.

It’s 10 yards of carry per club in the shorter irons and about 8 (as an average) with 6, 5 and 4 iron. I don’t really worry about total distance when on a LM or working out yardages.

 

Yeah my last set were a touch on the low side spin wise so some extra spin is definitely welcome and I was expecting to loose a few yards of carry, just not that much. 

[WristySwing]

2 hours ago, Bye said:

It’s 10 yards of carry per club in the shorter irons and about 8 (as an average) with 6, 5 and 4 iron. I don’t really worry about total distance when on a LM or working out yardages.

 

Yeah my last set were a touch on the low side spin wise so some extra spin is definitely welcome and I was expecting to loose a few yards of carry, just not that much. 

 

My question to you about narrowing down 1 or 2 would be if you have noticed a distance drop in the wedges as I see you have the 125s there as well?  You don't mention wedges at all.  If you don't, then its very clearly the ball and/or the loft.  Most people will never notice a change in their wedges because they spin so much anyways that the change in distance is rarely more than 5 yards unless they are really poorly fit to begin with.  If you are noticing less than 5 yards drop off on the wedges, you have your answer --- strengthen lofts + change to a ball that spins less.  I am surprised the person who fit you would suggest trying to get you to spin it more than about 5500 with irons indoors off a mat.  Trackman can't pick up spin adequately indoors, it needs like 50 feet or more of fly time to accurately measure carry (maybe this has changed but this used to be the rough benchmark).  It would italicize the spin numbers under that to illustrate it was estimating not being accurate.  Further, mats (even good ones) have shown to see a drop off of about 1000 RPMs compared to real world conditions.  Therefore, your CB X100 combo was likely spinning around 6000-6200 outside, which is more than fine, while now you are spinning it 7500.

Edited January 28 by WristySwing

[Bye]

2 hours ago, WristySwing said:

 

My question to you about narrowing down 1 or 2 would be if you have noticed a distance drop in the wedges as I see you have the 125s there as well?  You don't mention wedges at all.  If you don't, then it’s very clearly the ball and/or the loft.  Most people will never notice a change in their wedges because they spin so much anyways that the change in distance is rarely more than 5 yards unless they are really poorly fit to begin with.  If you are noticing less than 5 yards drop off on the wedges, you have your answer --- strengthen lofts + change to a ball that spins less.  I am surprised the person who fit you would suggest trying to get you to spin it more than about 5500 with irons indoors off a mat.  Trackman can't pick up spin adequately indoors, it needs like 50 feet or more of fly time to accurately measure carry (maybe this has changed but this used to be the rough benchmark).  It would italicize the spin numbers under that to illustrate it was estimating not being accurate.  Further, mats (even good ones) have shown to see a drop off of about 1000 RPMs compared to real world conditions.  Therefore, your CB X100 combo was likely spinning around 6000-6200 outside, which is more than fine, while now you are spinning it 7500.

There is a drop off with the wedges as well but it is not quite as bad, it is around 5 yards, the lofts are slightly different to my old wedges.

 

The CB’s were a bit in the low spinning side, I had to be careful downwind and for rough.

 

sounds like a ball and loft change might work. It’s normally windy where I play so it won’t take too many rounds to work out if it’s fixed things.

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

 

[hammergolf]

17 hours ago, Bye said:

I’m hoping both will do the job, the thought of changing 10 shafts or buying a whole new set is definitely not ideal. 

Just switch the ball. You’re playing a very high spinning, high trajectory golf ball.

[5hort5tuff]

I would do the easiest thing first. 

 

Adjust the lofts to be the same as your previous iron.  That's $5/head. 

 

Then switch to the old ball you used and compare. 

 

When you have your true head to head comparison,  you will be able to determine whether it is much closer to your previous setup, or if it is worth changing shafts. 

[Stuart_G]

20 hours ago, Bye said:

I found a picture I took from the fitting which had my 6 iron swing speed is 91mph, the CB’s had a spin rate of around 5000 rpms (Trackman, from a mat). I did some testing last week as i have been struggling a bit in the wind and with distances. My new clubs spin a lot more, 6 iron is around 6500 (flight scope from a mat) and the shorter irons seem worse. I’ve lost about 10 yards with each club.

 

Unfortunately, unless it was the exact same type of mat - the numbers really are not comparable.

 

 

20 hours ago, Bye said:

Loft wise the 620’s are 1 degree weaker, so that will account for some of the distance loss. It was also recommended during the fitting that I changed to a Pro V1X.

 

I am in 2 minds what to do. Option 1 would be to strengthen the lofts by 1 degree and switch to the Pro V1 in the hope that it will add a few yards and knock some spin off. Option 2 would be to have them re shafted with either some X100’s or Project X 6.5’s.

 

Has anyone else been in this position or does anyone have any advice? I am not expecting to get the full 10 yards back, but half way with a bit less spin might solve the issue.

 

Don't make any decisions based on number you get hitting off of a mat.    Mats are fine for comparing differences between clubs (when the same mat is used)  but the absolute numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.   So make decisions based on actual on course performance.     Or find a way to get LM data off of real turf with real (not range) balls.

 

Look at carry distances and how much roll out you get on the greens (or backing up).   Going stronger can increase the carry distance but usually at the cost of having more roll out on the greens.    Only you can decide what the best balance between those two aspects of the ball flight results might be for your game and your course(s).

 

Never hurts to play around with different balls but that tends to have a bigger impact around the greens than it does with the full swing approach shots.   But again, it's something that needs to be done on the course.

 

Edited January 28 by Stuart_G

[Bye]

13 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Unfortunately, unless it was the exact same type of mat - the numbers really are not comparable.

 

 

 

Don't make any decisions based on number you get hitting off of a mat.    Mats are fine for comparing differences between clubs (when the same mat is used)  but the absolute numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.   So make decisions based on actual on course performance.     Or find a way to get LM data off of real turf with real (not range) balls.

 

Look at carry distances and how much roll out you get on the greens (or backing up).   Going stronger can increase the carry distance but usually at the cost of having more roll out on the greens.    Only you can decide what the best balance between those two aspects of the ball flight results might be for your game and your course(s).

 

Never hurts to play around with different balls but that tends to have a bigger impact around the greens than it does with the full swing approach shots.   But again, it's something that needs to be done on the course.

 

Thanks Stuart, it’s always good to read your input on this type of thing. Interesting re the mats.
 

I noticed in another thread that you mention changing the loft of a driver has a marginal effect on spin. Does changing the loft with an iron have a similar effect? 
 

I will do some tinkering with the ball and loft and see how it goes on the course. 
 

It seems to be such a fine balance to get right.

 

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, Bye said:

Thanks Stuart, it’s always good to read your input on this type of thing. Interesting re the mats.
 

I noticed in another thread that you mention changing the loft of a driver has a marginal effect on spin. Does changing the loft with an iron have a similar effect? 
 

 

Not sure of the post, but what I probably meant was that with a driver there are other factors that tend to have a much higher relative influence - like ball impact position thanks to gear effect.   So if you have a spin problem with the driver that's due to poor face impact - then loft might help a little but it's not really going to be able to counter the effects of the poor face impact. 

BUT once you start getting good, consistent center face contact, loft can be an effective way to tweak the spin.    Similarly release tendencies - and the amount of shaft lean you get at impact can also potentially have a higher influence on the dynamic loft that what might be attainable with the chosen head loft.

 

The former is not an issue with irons.  The later can be but not to the extent it is with drivers because the higher tee height can allow for a lot more room to get bigger changes in dynamic loft.   e.g. you can get away with hiting a driver with a much wider range of shaft lean or hand position relative to the ball than you can an iron.   The ground will get in the way much sooner with irons to help prevent that wider range you have with a driver.

 

But to answer the question - 1* of loft will VERY roughly translate to 200 rpm of spin (largely depending on swing speed).

 

3 hours ago, Bye said:

It seems to be such a fine balance to get right.

 

I don't know.   I think what you get will largely be determined by your mechanics - swing speed and release tendencies.   Other things - like bending lofts, shaft selection and head selection - can help tweak it but it's usually not going to make a huge difference.   You have a little room to play with but not a huge amount.

[Bye]

12 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Not sure of the post, but what I probably meant was that with a driver there are other factors that tend to have a much higher relative influence - like ball impact position thanks to gear effect.   So if you have a spin problem with the driver that's due to poor face impact - then loft might help a little but it's not really going to be able to counter the effects of the poor face impact. 

BUT once you start getting good, consistent center face contact, loft can be an effective way to tweak the spin.    Similarly release tendencies - and the amount of shaft lean you get at impact can also potentially have a higher influence on the dynamic loft that what might be attainable with the chosen head loft.

 

The former is not an issue with irons.  The later can be but not to the extent it is with drivers because the higher tee height can allow for a lot more room to get bigger changes in dynamic loft.   e.g. you can get away with hiting a driver with a much wider range of shaft lean or hand position relative to the ball than you can an iron.   The ground will get in the way much sooner with irons to help prevent that wider range you have with a driver.

 

But to answer the question - 1* of loft will VERY roughly translate to 200 rpm of spin (largely depending on swing speed).

 

 

I don't know.   I think what you get will largely be determined by your mechanics - swing speed and release tendencies.   Other things - like bending lofts, shaft selection and head selection - can help tweak it but it's usually not going to make a huge difference.   You have a little room to play with but not a huge amount.

That is kind of what I am hoping, maybe a few yards from the loft change and then 400-500rpms from that and a ball change should hopefully get them where they need to be. 
 

Thanks.

[Bye]

Just posting again in case it is of interest to anyone.

 

I played today and used a Pro V1 instead.
 

It didn’t seem to make much of a difference with the launch and apex visually, but the flight was better and it did seem to help distance wise particularly with the short irons. 

 

I have some more testing to do, but there seems to be some light at the end of the tunnel. I may end up having some of the lofts strengthened.

 

Thank you to everyone who posted. 

 

 

[hammergolf]

Keep in mind, it’s very hard for the eye too see apex height if it’s less than 15 - 20ft difference. Chances are if your distances came back to what they were your peak height is a little lower too. Good to hear the change helped.