Which OEM has the best adjustable hosel?

[naj959]

Interesting topic; I've never given much thought to the look of the adaptor. It's not something that catches my eye at address. I didn't know this was a thing to be honest but I've learned something new. Titleist gets my vote for best current iteration. The number of available settings are a tinkerer's dream. I agree wtih @DaRiz on Callaway. Took me a good minute to figure out their settings.

 

Honorable mention goes to Nike. I really like the simplicity on my Covert 2.0. Left, right, neutral and Lofts from 8.5 to 12.5 right on the hosel. 

[hammergolf]

1 minute ago, dwboston said:

 

Titleist sleeves absolutely adjust face angle.  There's a version of the SureFit chart that show the face angle changes in a column on the right.

 

Yep. 

[Pepperturbo]

Just now, dwboston said:

 

Titleist sleeves absolutely adjust face angle.  There's a version of the SureFit chart that show the face angle changes in a column on the right.

 

Check with Titleist - their staff says otherwise below

 

"Our SureFit Tour hosel system mechanically adjusts loft and lie angle, not face angle.  A change in face angle comes from the fact that when you change loft angle, you also change the ground contact point on the sole.  When you add loft, the ground contact point shifts back and when the driver is soled, the face angle closes (please note, the face angle only changes if you sole the driver).  The opposite happens when you decrease loft.  The ground contact point moves forward and the face opens.

Now for the chart.  We include a note that says Loft = Effective Loft with a square face at impact.  Most golfers try to point the face of the driver down their intended line, or said another way, square the face at impact.  So, if you start with a closed face angle and square the face at impact you are in fact adding loft.  Lets walk through how that happens.  If you change our SureFit Tour hosel setting to A4 you mechanically add 1.5 degrees of loft to our driver.  If you sole the driver, the face can close because of the ground contact point.  Most players then take the face and square it, thus adding the 1.5 degrees of loft.

If you change the setting and do not square the face, and you end up gripping the club and hitting your shot with a closed face angle, then yes, you hit it low left.  The key to our chart is squaring the face at impact.

The lie and loft changes are independent of one another, which means that you can change the lie without affecting the loft.  On the chart, if you go left or right, you are changing the lie angle without affecting the loft setting on that row.  So if you move the setting to A2, which is on the standard loft row, you are at standard loft and have made the lie angle 1.5° more upright. 

Hope that helps!"

[hammergolf]

8 minutes ago, dwboston said:

 

Titleist sleeves absolutely adjust face angle.  There's a version of the SureFit chart that show the face angle changes in a column on the right.

 

Anyone that’s ever adjusted a Titleist club knows and sees the face angle changes. Even Titleist tells you it does if the club is grounded. They try to cover it with “as long as it’s not grounded”statement, but as you’ve stated they even tell you on their chart. 

[wam78]

Have to say, it’s really nice that Callaway’s hosel adaptor does not rotate the shaft.  Can’t stand to see the graphics on the shaft from address, especially graphite.

[dwboston]

2 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Check with Titleist - their staff says otherwise below

 

"Our SureFit Tour hosel system mechanically adjusts loft and lie angle, not face angle.  A change in face angle comes from the fact that when you change loft angle, you also change the ground contact point on the sole.  When you add loft, the ground contact point shifts back and when the driver is soled, the face angle closes (please note, the face angle only changes if you sole the driver).  The opposite happens when you decrease loft.  The ground contact point moves forward and the face opens.

Now for the chart.  We include a note that says Loft = Effective Loft with a square face at impact.  Most golfers try to point the face of the driver down their intended line, or said another way, square the face at impact.  So, if you start with a closed face angle and square the face at impact you are in fact adding loft.  Lets walk through how that happens.  If you change our SureFit Tour hosel setting to A4 you mechanically add 1.5 degrees of loft to our driver.  If you sole the driver, the face can close because of the ground contact point.  Most players then take the face and square it, thus adding the 1.5 degrees of loft.

If you change the setting and do not square the face, and you end up gripping the club and hitting your shot with a closed face angle, then yes, you hit it low left.  The key to our chart is squaring the face at impact.

The lie and loft changes are independent of one another, which means that you can change the lie without affecting the loft.  On the chart, if you go left or right, you are changing the lie angle without affecting the loft setting on that row.  So if you move the setting to A2, which is on the standard loft row, you are at standard loft and have made the lie angle 1.5° more upright. 

Hope that helps!"

 

I don't have to check with Titleist - that chart comes from Titleist.  You can't change loft and lie without affecting face angle.  If you stay in the same row on the chart and make adapter changes, then face angle stays the same, but making adapter changes from one row to another on the chart absolutely changes face angle - that's how "effective loft" works. 

 

The static loft on the club never changes with any adjustment.  The way the adapter works is by opening or closing the face angle, then the player needs to return the face angle to square by impact.  A closed face angle (higher loft) needs to be opened up by that amount by impact, and an open face angle (lower loft) needs to be closed by that amount by impact.

[Pepperturbo]

3 minutes ago, dwboston said:

 

I don't have to check with Titleist - that chart comes from Titleist.  You can't change loft and lie without affecting face angle.  If you stay in the same row on the chart and make adapter changes, then face angle stays the same, but making adapter changes from one row to another on the chart absolutely changes face angle - that's how "effective loft" works. 

 

The static loft on the club never changes with any adjustment.  The way the adapter works is by opening or closing the face angle, then the player needs to return the face angle to square by impact.  A closed face angle (higher loft) needs to be opened up by that amount by impact, and an open face angle (lower loft) needs to be closed by that amount by impact.

You're welcome to think what ever.  I take the Titleist expert's view as opposed to opinions on DB.  You have a good day.

[dwboston]

1 minute ago, Pepperturbo said:

You're welcome to think what ever.  I take the Titleist expert's view as opposed to opinions on DB.  You have a good day.

 

Classic response - often wrong, but never in doubt.

[Pepperturbo]

1 minute ago, dwboston said:

 

Classic response - often wrong, but never in doubt.

Yep, classic.  What makes you an authority??? 

[dwboston]

1 minute ago, Pepperturbo said:

Yep, classic.  What makes you an authority??? 

 

It's basic physics - how would "loft" change without face angle changing, since the heel of the club is fixed and the club head is unable to rotate vertically in either direction?

 

You've seen the gimmick adjustable clubs with a mechanism in the heel that allow loft to change up or down by rotating the head vertically, right?  None of the adjustable sleeves from OEM's operate like that.

[jvincent]

4 minutes ago, dwboston said:

 

It's basic physics - how would "loft" change without face angle changing, since the heel of the club is fixed and the club head is unable to rotate vertically in either direction?

 

You've seen the gimmick adjustable clubs with a mechanism in the heel that allow loft to change up or down by rotating the head vertically, right?  None of the adjustable sleeves from OEM's operate like that.

 

More accurately it's geometry, not physics, but you are correct.

 

All of the hosel adapters are rotational in nature and simple geometry says that the face angle changes unless you are using the setting which is 180* from the current setting which is only a lie adjustment.

[hammergolf]

18 minutes ago, dwboston said:

 

Classic response - often wrong, but never in doubt.

You’re evidence is LITERALLY a Titleist produced and distributed document and he called it your opinion. Lol Even Titleist states the face angle changes when it’s grounded. But this guy knows even more then they do…. What a joke.

[hammergolf]

There’s a reason why ball flight and curve is effected when you adjust the adapter on a Titleist club. (and every other club with an adapter.) That reason? Because the face angle is different than it was before it was adjusted. It’s different at address AND at impact. Why? Because the head cg related to the shaft cg has changed at address AND impact. How? Because the face angle changed it changes start line and face closure rate. As always, don’t confuse a marketing message from customer service with something that is factually proven by physics.

[hammergolf]

28 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Yep, classic.  What makes you an authority??? 

Have you ever thought of the possibility that you may not always be right? Or that by some strange phenomenon that theoretically someone might be more informed than you?

[tannyhoban]

23 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Have you ever thought of the possibility that you may not always be right? Or that by some strange phenomenon that theoretically someone might be more informed than you?

Think of it this way, the face angle is ALWAYS fixed on a golf club. Only relationship changing is in relationship to the shaft and the ground.

 

If you bend an iron the face angle is not changing, the relationship to the ground (and shaft) is changing. So

the bounce goes up or down depending which way you go, weak or strong. 

[getitdaily]

Titleist by a mile

 

TM is 2nd because I know how much things change.

 

[hammergolf]

5 minutes ago, tannyhoban said:

Think of it this way, the face angle is ALWAYS fixed on a golf club. Only relationship changing is in relationship to the shaft and the ground.

 

If you bend an iron the face angle is not changing, the relationship to the ground (and shaft) is changing. So

the bounce goes up or down depending which way you go, weak or strong. 

So what happens to the face of an adjustable driver when you add 2 degrees of loft to it and ground it? What happens to the face of an adjustable driver when you take 2 degrees of loft to it and ground it? What happens to start line and ball flight when you add 2 degrees of loft to it? What happens to start line and ball flight when you take 2 degrees of loft? It’s not the ground changing the face dynamics and ball flight. It’s the changes to the face loft and angle. The ground is not causing those changes.

[ode]

6 hours ago, DaRiz said:

Cobra

A matter of preference....I like the cobra after playing many of their drivers, I would agree when soled at address the f.a. to my eye appears to be same/similar in the different settings.....which is a good thing.  I've always felt the f.a. needs to be what you want soled naturally, in addition to the correct loft.  Getting to the right loft by adjusting the f.a. is counterintuitive. With cobra, at least the models I've played the "smart pad" assists with this.  The last thing I want to be doing is fidgeting with the face angle at address to get to the right loft👎.  The only thing that would make it better is if there was a freely spinning cog so the shaft orientation could stay the same.

[lefty1978]

Callaway easy #1.

[tannyhoban]

14 hours ago, hammergolf said:

So what happens to the face of an adjustable driver when you add 2 degrees of loft to it and ground it? What happens to the face of an adjustable driver when you take 2 degrees of loft to it and ground it? What happens to start line and ball flight when you add 2 degrees of loft to it? What happens to start line and ball flight when you take 2 degrees of loft? It’s not the ground changing the face dynamics and ball flight. It’s the changes to the face loft and angle. The ground is not causing those changes.

You have changed the orientation of the face, not the face angle. The shaft will look to be leaning left if you are a right hand golfer. 

[Z1ggy16]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:00 AM, SJL1216 said:

I thought this would be an interesting topic on who has the “best” or your favorite adjustable wood hosel out there? 
 

I know a lot of their end goal is the same but they all have their own uniqueness… so which do you like and why? 

For me: Titleist is the "best" because it lets you adjust loft/face angle and lie separately and can go both flat and upright. Callaway would be a close 2nd but they don't have ability to go flat stock, need special sleeve. Next would be Ping due to going flat and being very small, last would be TM and Cobra. All single axis adapters bug me because of screwing with shaft logo if you need to make tweaks.

[Natural1]

Face angle is simply dictated by how the club sits on the ground, dictated by the point on the sole that first contacts the ground. Assuming you hold the shaft in exactly the same position, any change to loft or lie will change the point(s) that first contact the ground.

 

Lightly sole the club and release pressure on the grip (without changing the shaft angles) - gravity takes over until the sole of the club finds a resting position. If you change the initial contact point, that resting state position will also change, and therefore the orientation of the club from eye view. Lie changes of 1-2 degrees don't really make a perceptible change to face angle. However, extreme lie angle changes can move that contact point so far to the heel or toe-side such that the face may want to rotate closed or open. Point being that the clubs resting position will always change in some way if you change the initial contact point. Any time you change the hosel orientation (which is actually a shaft orientation change) you will also change that initial contact point.

 

Look at the TM R11 - that sole plate was designed to allow the user to manipulate the contact points. A very cool idea IMO.

 

On grass some adjustments make more difference than others. Grass is fluffy and provides some amount of support. But, some tiny amount of change always occurs. Check it out on a hard floor. You can really see it there.

 

EDIT: for clarity

Edited January 29, 2023 by Natural1

[Bad9]

First posted here a while back but I don't think anything has really changed. Its probably more useful than the guys parroting OEM (maybe even inaccurately) in this thread.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Bad9

[dwboston]

1 hour ago, Bad9 said:

First posted here a while back but I don't think anything has really changed. Its probably more useful than the guys parroting OEM (maybe even inaccurately) in this thread.

 

 

 

Don't make me dig up the post from Wishon in the "adjustable drivers" thread from years ago, where he claimed the adjustable hosels used on Tour players clubs were fake and didn't actually adjust anything.

[hammergolf]

7 hours ago, tannyhoban said:

You have changed the orientation of the face, not the face angle. The shaft will look to be leaning left if you are a right hand golfer. 

Orientation of the face changing means it different due to the adjustment purely by definition. At best it’s semantics, and your theory would be proven if the launch, spin, and axis were not changed with different settings. The fact is that a driver set at std, 2* more lofted, or 2* less didn’t have completely different flight characteristics. It has nothing to do with the ground, it has to do with the face angle being different at IMPACT. Even Titleist shows a face angle change on the fitting chart. 

[hammergolf]

4 hours ago, Natural1 said:

Face angle is simply dictated by how the club sits on the ground, dictated by the point on the sole that first contacts the ground. Assuming you hold the shaft in exactly the same position, any change to loft or lie will change the point(s) that first contact the ground.

 

Lightly sole the club and release pressure on the grip (without changing the shaft angles) - gravity takes over until the sole of the club finds a resting position. If you change the initial contact point, that resting state position will also change, and therefore the orientation of the club from eye view. Lie changes of 1-2 degrees don't really make a perceptible change to face angle. However, extreme lie angle changes can move that contact point so far to the heel or toe-side such that the face may want to rotate closed or open. Point being that the clubs resting position will always change in some way if you change the initial contact point. Any time you change the hosel orientation (which is actually a shaft orientation change) you will also change that initial contact point.

 

Look at the TM R11 - that sole plate was designed to allow the user to manipulate the contact points. A very cool idea IMO.

 

On grass some adjustments make more difference than others. Grass is fluffy and provides some amount of support. But, some tiny amount of change always occurs. Check it out on a hard floor. You can really see it there.

 

EDIT: for clarity

It’s not dictated by grounding. It is changes at IMPACT that bring the desired effect. The sleeve changes the orientation of the shaft location and it’s relation to the head. (Face progression, face angle, measured loft, lie angle) Basically it’s the cg of the head wanting to keep its relation to the cg of the shaft and wanting to line up. If as many say it’s the ground changing the face angle, there would be ZERO difference in ball flight regardless of setting at impact since the driver wouldn’t be contacting the ground. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by hammergolf

[Troy_McClure]

Titleist and it's not even close.

[Natural1]

42 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

It’s not dictated by grounding. It is changes at IMPACT that bring the desired effect. The sleeve changes the orientation of the shaft location and it’s relation to the head. (Face progression, face angle, measured loft, lie angle) Basically it’s the cg of the head wanting to keep its relation to the cg of the shaft and wanting to line up. If as many say it’s the ground changing the face angle, there would be ZERO difference in ball flight regardless of setting at impact since the driver wouldn’t be contacting the ground. 

You are 100% right that the changes at impact bring the desired effect. But, the concept of face angle closing or opening based on a loft change are related to grounding. When Titleist says that reducing loft by .75 degrees opens the face by 1 degree, they are talking about a grounded club. As you alluded to, only when you square the face back up do you get the actual 0.75 degree loft reduction.

 

Having said all that, I do understand your point about CG and things wanting to line up, and that may have an impact on what the face dynamically "wants to do" (outside of simple grounding). But, what I'm talking about is what the OEMs mean when they say that a given loft change produces a given face angle change.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Natural1

[Glock917]

What’s the range of lie angles of the OEM drivers? Cause it’s odd to me people say one OEM cause you can set it flat. Isn’t that because the ones that don’t have a flat setting is because their stock setting is on the flattest setting anyway? Does one OEM have flatter end more than others? Kinda perplexing how people choose that reason when they all have relatively the same range of lie angles. 
 

oh and my vote is TM only cause they’re one of the only ones that have 4° of range while most only have 3°

[Natural1]

1 hour ago, Glock917 said:

What’s the range of lie angles of the OEM drivers? Cause it’s odd to me people say one OEM cause you can set it flat. Isn’t that because the ones that don’t have a flat setting is because their stock setting is on the flattest setting anyway? Does one OEM have flatter end more than others? Kinda perplexing how people choose that reason when they all have relatively the same range of lie angles. 
 

oh and my vote is TM only cause they’re one of the only ones that have 4° of range while most only have 3°

 

As far as the range I'm not 100% sure but I think TM does have the largest. You're exactly right about TM stock being the flattest setting (6 o'clock position). I'm assuming Pings must be the exact opposite to go flat.

 

I can't speak to all non-cog adapters, but here's an easy way for me to visualize what the TM adapter does... imagine a very small funnel with a pencil glued to the inner wall of that funnel. The funnel is the adapter, the pencil is the shaft. Now put the funnel in the hosel opening and rotate it clockwise or counterclockwise. What that pencil does is exactly what the shaft does (relative to the head) when you change the adapter position. With TM the stock setting is with the pencil pointing down in the 6 o'clock position (flattest position)

Edited January 29, 2023 by Natural1
clarity & grammar