Iron Loft Adjustment Question

[mantan]

I took my Srixon ZX5 irons to get regripped and to get the lofts/lies checked for the year.

 

I went to pick them up today. I was a bit concerned when they had lost the spec sheet I'd left. One of my clubs was up on the loft/lie machine and they were looking online to see what the specs were. (What if they had been non-standard specs?)

 

They said it would be about 15 minutes, so I just browsed the store. The guy doing the work hunted me down to let me know my 7-iron was 6* strong.  That seemed odd as that would be enough to be a major gapping issue.  He said since it was forged he could bend it back, but would make sure it.  Fast forward to when I picked them up a bit later and he said the 7-iron then measured 4* weak.  And that maybe there is an issue wih the metal on that club and I may want to call Srixon. Honestly, the whole thing has me concerned. I don't know if I trust the work that was done. I don't know if I trust my 7-iron anymore. I honestly don't know why Srixon would even entertain a call about a 2-year old club.

 

is 6* normal for a loft to change in a couple of years?  And why would it measure weaker than the loft it was adjusted to afterward?

Edited January 29, 2023 by mantan

[hammergolf]

Don’t take clubs there anymore to have them adjusted. If your club was 6* strong you would have noticed it because the it’s would have EXTREME offset and hosel would be bent like a pretzel. In addition, if your 7 iron was 4* weak it would have an EXTREME amount of face progression. If you have another option, take them somewhere else.

Edited January 29, 2023 by hammergolf

[DrShaftE]

It would also mean that you have extra 10 deg. gap between 6 and 7 irons. So totally ~14 deg. gap which would have been very noticeable. Without speaking about that your 8 and 7 irons & 5 and 6 irons should have been about same lofts. 
 

Bending irons more than 2-4 deg. is also quite questionable for reasons which are meantioned in earlier post by @hammergolf

Edited January 29, 2023 by DrShaftE

[mantan]

3 minutes ago, DrShaftE said:

It would also mean that you have extra 10 deg. gap between 6 and 7 irons. So totally ~14 deg. gap which would have been very noticeable. Without speaking about that your 8 and 7 irons & 5 and 6 irons should have been about same lofts. 🤔

 

That is what stuck out to me. I expected maybe a stray degree of loft/lie. Something that would be more marginal.  Maybe an iron I was hitting a bit left had drifted a degree upright. Or maybe if clubs next to each other in the bag drifted a degree towards each other in loft, it may bhave been a minor issue.  I literally won CTP and a skin in our league event last weekend with a 7-iron shot that went the exact distance I would have expected it to.  If it was 6* strong, it should been playing as long...if not longer than 6-iron.  

[jvincent]

Find a new shop, they clearly don't know how to measure loft.

[tets]

I wouldn’t trust them… you should only have your loft and lies checked on one machine, because every machine will give you a different reading.  I bet if you have 2 different guys do it on the same machine, you get 2 different readings.  Do yourself a favor and get your own loft and lie machine.  No way is it 6 degrees off in loft.. 

[hammergolf]

34 minutes ago, mantan said:

 

That is what stuck out to me. I expected maybe a stray degree of loft/lie. Something that would be more marginal.  Maybe an iron I was hitting a bit left had drifted a degree upright. Or maybe if clubs next to each other in the bag drifted a degree towards each other in loft, it may bhave been a minor issue.  I literally won CTP and a skin in our league event last weekend with a 7-iron shot that went the exact distance I would have expected it to.  If it was 6* strong, it should been playing as long...if not longer than 6-iron.  

I think maybe the person bending them did not have the irons inserted correctly, or they couldn’t read the machine properly. 

[drpino]

I'm going to guess he improperly clamped the irons in the machine due to the V-sole.  First time probably had it clamped on one edge, bent it, then re-clamped it on the opposing edge.  Can't imagine the hosels don't look whack after the bending considering he may have moved them 4 or more degrees which is typically outside of what most manufacturers are even willing to do at their own factories.

 

Sounds like a novice, inexperienced, and/or unqualified user of the L/L machine to me.

 

To elaborate a little, 6 degrees out of spec is almost unheard of unless an iron has suffered significant trauma like hitting a root or tree trunk with a full swing.  4 degrees may be possible if high volume hitting off super hard range mats over a long period of time but that's also rare.  Most manufacturers tolerance range is only +- 1 degree and lofts (or lies) moving 1 degree due to use may cause a club to end up 2-3 degree out of spec but 4 or more is really rare.

Edited January 29, 2023 by drpino

[mantan]

1 hour ago, drpino said:

I'm going to guess he improperly clamped the irons in the machine due to the V-sole.  First time probably had it clamped on one edge, bent it, then re-clamped it on the opposing edge.  Can't imagine the hosels don't look whack after the bending considering he may have moved them 4 or more degrees which is typically outside of what most manufacturers are even willing to do at their own factories.

 

Sounds like a novice, inexperienced, and/or unqualified user of the L/L machine to me.

 

To elaborate a little, 6 degrees out of spec is almost unheard of unless an iron has suffered significant trauma like hitting a root or tree trunk with a full swing.  4 degrees may be possible if high volume hitting off super hard range mats over a long period of time but that's also rare.  Most manufacturers tolerance range is only +- 1 degree and lofts (or lies) moving 1 degree due to use may cause a club to end up 2-3 degree out of spec but 4 or more is really rare.

 

That makes sense. Measuring it wrong is the only way it could be that far out of tolerance. Which makes me doubt the measurements and adjustments across the board. I'm going to run it to a small custom shop who is known for doing great work tomorrow.  I should have done that in the first place. Golf Galaxy just happened to have the grips I needed in stock, so I figured I'd get it all done at once.

[drpino]

I would barely trust big box to do grips so going to an independent custom shop is a good idea.  Clubmakers are like mechanics…tough to find good ones that are trustworthy with high quality work but when you do, stick with them!

Edited January 30, 2023 by drpino

[DYOS4]

Was it a digital machine? Sounds like it wasn't calibrated. 

[hammergolf]

37 minutes ago, DYOS4 said:

Was it a digital machine? Sounds like it wasn't calibrated. 

It’s not possible for a machine to be off that much. Only way to get numbers that crazy is to not have the club inserted properly.

[DYOS4]

2 hours ago, hammergolf said:

It’s not possible for a machine to be off that much. Only way to get numbers that crazy is to not have the club inserted properly.

It's very possible to have it be off by that much and much more! Anytime you turn off a Mitchell digital machine you have to recalibrate it! 

[Howard_Jones]

8 hours ago, hammergolf said:

Don’t take clubs there anymore to have them adjusted. If your club was 6* strong you would have noticed it because the it’s would have EXTREME offset and hosel would be bent like a pretzel. In addition, if your 7 iron was 4* weak it would have an EXTREME amount of face progression. If you have another option, take them somewhere else.

 

Its not that extreme as angle.

 

Think of a analog clock and a protractor

A protractor has 360* / 60 minuts = 1 minute = 6*

 

But i understand the OP,

If meatheads has been working on my clubs, i would also have a bad feeling about it all

 

9* is the most ive been able to bend a forged club head before the hosel get damaged, but a place like the OP describe is most likely able to ruin the club head by the clamping process alone

Edited January 30, 2023 by Howard_Jones

[Cwebb]

It sounds like he is using the loft/lie machine as an absolute measuring unit.  That can go wrong.

 

Try to find someone who has an actual spec gauge to measure all your clubs

[iknowbagu]

7 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

9* is the most ive been able to bend a forged club head before the hosel get damaged, but a place like the OP describe is most likely able to ruin the club head by the clamping process alone

 

Don't mean to thread jack, but now I'm morbidly curious. Was the 9° bend just an experiment to see how far you could go or did a customer actually request that? 

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

43 minutes ago, iknowbagu said:

 

Don't mean to thread jack, but now I'm morbidly curious. Was the 9° bend just an experiment to see how far you could go or did a customer actually request that? 

 

 

 

 

it was a brand new Cobra #7 iron, who came with the right head wgt, and head #, but with a loft like the #9.

 

A new head was ordered, but the player was in desperate need (tournament), so i did my best to help him while he waited for a new club head.

 

i was never a Cobra dealer, so this head came in my door due to a appointment with my own PGA swingtrainer for jobs he could not doo. (he had a Mitchell bending machine but he did not dare to go try, since the head had to be playable after bending, and "2 clubs stronger" is NOT easy

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Howard_Jones

[grochol17]

12 hours ago, hammergolf said:

It’s not possible for a machine to be off that much. Only way to get numbers that crazy is to not have the club inserted properly.

It is possible... I took a putter to get the specs checked and the guy using the digital machine told me the loft was 0*, so I asked it to be bent back to the 3* it should have been.  Didn't look right when I got it home, so I took it back to the same shop and a different guy said they had been having trouble with that machine so he did the calibration then threw my putter on there and it showed up as being 7* loft.

[drpino]

11 hours ago, DYOS4 said:

It's very possible to have it be off by that much and much more! Anytime you turn off a Mitchell digital machine you have to recalibrate it! 

True and admittedly an aspect of the digital machines that I didn't think of.  But and experienced or qualified user of the machine should have known that and calibrated accordingly so my point remains about not letting big box stores do higher level club work for you!

[ac6]

2 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

 

 

it was a brand new Cobra #7 iron, who came with the right head wgt, and head #, but with a loft like the #9.

 

A new head was ordered, but the player was in desperate need (tournament), so i did my best to help him while he waited for a new club head.

 

i was never a Cobra dealer, so this head came in my door due to a appointment with my own PGA swingtrainer for jobs he could not doo. (he had a Mitchell bending machine but he did not dare to go try, since the head had to be playable after bending, and "2 clubs stronger" is NOT easy

 

 

2 clubs stronger is wild. If it came from the factory that way as a #7 head, I have to assume it just showed up bent extremely weak with extreme bounce? Or did you end up bending it to the point that it had severe negative bounce angle? 

[Howard_Jones]

15 minutes ago, ac6 said:

 

2 clubs stronger is wild. If it came from the factory that way as a #7 head, I have to assume it just showed up bent extremely weak with extreme bounce? Or did you end up bending it to the point that it had severe negative bounce angle? 

it was no marks on the hosel or head who told me it was adusted, and since i dont know how this heads goes trough production, i never had a clue about how that could happen, since both head wgt and head number identified it.

 

i never looked at bounce at all, it was a loft and lie job only, and made only to last a few days untill a new head was in place.

 

[DYOS4]

For @drpino and @hammergolf

 

You need to get to know the staff. There are good people and hacks in every profession. 

[drpino]

46 minutes ago, DYOS4 said:

For @drpino and @hammergolf

 

You need to get to know the staff. There are good people and hacks in every profession.

 

For certain (I’ve worked for, with, and trained some of both in golf) but in general I’ll still advocate for patronizing a small, independent custom club shop over a big box store.  For the most part, we all enjoy having affordable options for equipment and club work but are also very willing to be easily dissatisfied, disappointed, and/or complain, myself included.  Something to do with having cake and eating it too…

 

And I’m not saying paying more for a service automatically means higher quality work.  I’ve seen and dealt with examples coming out of the “high end” fitter segment that were atrocious.

Edited January 30, 2023 by drpino

[hammergolf]

13 minutes ago, drpino said:

 

For certain (I’ve worked for, with, and trained some of both in golf) but in general I’ll still advocate for patronizing a small, independent custom club shop over a big box store.  For the most part, we all enjoy having affordable options for equipment and club work but are also very willing to be easily dissatisfied, disappointed, and/or complain, myself included.  Something to do with having cake and eating it too…

 

And I’m not saying paying more for a service automatically means higher quality work.  I’ve seen and dealt with examples coming out of the “high end” fitter segment that were atrocious.

Just like mechanics and doctors, they all are called the same thing, but skill and talent they have isn’t.

[DrShaftE]

One wild guess if they have this kind of loft/lie machine (https://www.golfworks.com/maltby-ironhybrid-bending-machine/p/ma2017/) where is std. loft setting for every club and reading is how much loft differs from std. value. There is a possibility that user put just std. setting for 6 iron and if newer clubs have stronger lofts than earlier you should use #5 placement for 6 iron not #6. This is possible if user don`t know lofts of set what he is measuring/bending. This also could happen mistakenly that user won`t remember change setting between clubs. It is quite a hassle and unproffesional act but also very possible. (I have seen once this situation when checked my club loft and lie on golf club proshop after I hit it a root.) They said that it was bend a quite much before I noticed wrong placement of setting rod.

[mantan]

Epilogue.  I took then to a small shop known for outstanding service.  
 

All the loft specs were on except the 7-iron. Which was 4* weak.  This was the same measurement the tech got after he said it was 6* strong and bent it back.  
 

I don’t trust that club at all anymore. And 

[hammergolf]

35 minutes ago, mantan said:

Epilogue.  I took then to a small shop known for outstanding service.  
 

All the loft specs were on except the 7-iron. Which was 4* weak.  This was the same measurement the tech got after he said it was 6* strong and bent it back.  
 

I don’t trust that club at all anymore. And 

The club is fine, It’s a 1020 forged body so it’s able to bend easily without putting strain on the metal. The bending doesn’t hurt them. No need to worry about the club breaking or not trusting it. 

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, mantan said:

Epilogue.  I took then to a small shop known for outstanding service.  
 

All the loft specs were on except the 7-iron. Which was 4* weak.  This was the same measurement the tech got after he said it was 6* strong and bent it back.  
 

I don’t trust that club at all anymore. And 

 

Was the club adjusted after the initial 6* strong measurement? If yes, then when they did that then it makes sense that it would read 4* weak when measured correctly.

 

There's nothing wrong with the club/metal. Just get it adjusted correctly and it will be fine.

[mantan]

1 hour ago, jvincent said:

 

Was the club adjusted after the initial 6* strong measurement? If yes, then when they did that then it makes sense that it would read 4* weak when measured correctly.

 

There's nothing wrong with the club/metal. Just get it adjusted correctly and it will be fine.

 

They said the club was 6* strong on the initial measurement.  They adjusted it to the correct loft. Then he said after he did the other clubs he checked it again and it was 4* weak of what it should have been. (10* from initial reading)

 

They adjusted it again, but then told me I needed to contact Srixon. I got an email from the GM the next day saying the same thing and inferring something may be wrong with the club.

 

I took it to someone else today and they said it was 4* weak.  Maybe the original place just did it wrong, but it was concerning when they said they tried to contact Srixon (closed) and then in their email said that I needed to do the same.

 

I don't know anything about clubbuilding.  But it's like going to get your oil changed, then coming back and seeing your engine disassembled...then reassembled and told something may be wrong, call the manufacturer.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by mantan

[jvincent]

It's not impossible that there's something wrong with the club, but it's really hard to mess up a forged iron head from the factory.

 

If the reputable shop has adjusted it and didn't notice anything with the head you should be fine.

 

Anything coming from the first location should just be ignored.